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Post by Gopal on Sept 9, 2024 5:07:38 GMT -5
The problem with edicts regarding reality is their slippery nature. Telling people(hahaha-nonexistent people) to stop chasing might as well be telling them to chase stopping chasing. There's quite a bit more to it. , so in meditation when they say the mind is peaceful etc, it's not actually 'how it is'. Maybe the mind is going completely wild. Meditation is knowing 'the mind is going wild'. One can be on their little sailing boat in a calm still sea, then it gets windy, the swell rises up, and a big storm blows you around, and it passes, so the meditator just knows 'this is what it's like' with the understanding 'it won't last long'. The old salt has seen it come and go a thousand times before, so to him, another storm is just par for the course, and he's not perturbed by anything It comes along with the beautiful plan to reach the destination. |
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Post by tenka on Sept 9, 2024 13:40:09 GMT -5
Well there must be something plausible that you are believing for you to interact with other's as you do. What would convince you that someone isn't here? I heard you speaking about helping your sister out the other day with gardening bits as that is your forte. It just doesn't make sense to me for peeps to behave in a certain way and then speak in almost opposite terms. It almost goes against the grain. Self awareness is self evident. Now Definitions of someone. noun. a human being. synonyms: individual, mortal, person, somebody, soul. being, organism. So self awareness within the experience of what we know as a human experience reflects the knowings and understandings, the feelings that associate oneself with that to certain degrees. If you don't believe that any of that plausible then I dare say nothing will float your boat. Many believe that anything mindful that encompasses the senses isn't real so there really isn't anything that will tick their boxes. Even though individuality and self awareness go hand in hand with their experience, they will denounce it while showing love or hate for their fellow man. Mind boggles with all that. It's weird, but 'this is how it is', so I help my sister with yard stuff, and she's a lot like me with no identity, but of course the personality is there, formed by the whole of the past to turn out like 'this', much like a canyon was formed over eons by the weather that happened - to turn out the way it is. Likewise, I am this way by fate, and there's no actual continuous identity than can make it somehow other, though change is ongoing, but for the majority of people there is an effort of becoming who they want to be, without acceptance of 'this is how I am', but it's not always easy to come to peace with the whole of one's past, and thereby, the person that they are.
So there is no brother / sister relationship? There's no association had between your parents and your sister, you and your parents? I mean when push comes to shove you say that you help your sister out with gardening stuff. (kudda done with your help today myself)  . Back breaking shovelling and fence work, uprooting trees etc. The way I see identification working is quite straightforward really, you talk about your sister because you identify with what that means to you. I think that for some, they think that if they identify as being a mum or a dad or a brother or sister they are kinda trapped in some kind of identity fraud lol, but there is nothing wrong with identifying oneself as this and that. It doesn't mean that its the be all and end all of what one believes of oneself to be. It's self identifying. It's self recognition. To be totally unidentified in my eyes would mean there is no recognition of someone being one's sister. This isn't the case is it in your relationship. Change is a constant as everyone knows, identity therefore can change. It isn't a problem. |
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Post by sharon on Sept 9, 2024 17:07:28 GMT -5
A premise is essential for logic, and plausible premises are essential for a sound conclusion, so if you can tell me a plausible premise for the conclusion that someone is here I might be convinced, but I'm currently convinced that the common conviction that someone is here is assumed on the following grounds: There is experience; therefore I am. The premise is a given, but does the conclusion necessarily follow? is where Niz' focus on "I am" has good merit. He says to start your attempt to knowing by leaving aside everything that you believe, that you believe you know, that you believe there is, that is obvious, that you experience, that you feel, memories, ... everything. You just know that you exist. You don't know what you are, what exists, ... You don't know anything else. Then he seemed to have realized / hypothesized that the physical reality he experienced wasn't an objective reality, it somehow was only his creation. I haven't read enough of his opinions to know if he suggested how this creation happens, or more. He also realized / hypothesized that what he is in the physical reality is actually a state of something else; there is something "behind" it. I don't know what he suggest that that might be. But, it doesn't matter what he believed, if he was right or wrong, how distorted his hypotheses were. To me it matters only what I can learn from my inner source of knowledge and guidance, and in order to minimize the inherent distortions, to leave aside everything, to "completely empty the cup". This thread is not offered as an authority or as an alternative to picking up and sitting with one of his books for a few months. But it is offered as a gentle stroll through the quotes that appealed to previous posters on various days, over a period of 11 years. I hope it's an enjoyable walk.  spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2571/daily-niz-discussionEdit: I changed the amount of years. I hadn't looked at Page 13 fully. |
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Post by inavalan on Sept 9, 2024 17:30:32 GMT -5
This is where Niz' focus on "I am" has good merit. He says to start your attempt to knowing by leaving aside everything that you believe, that you believe you know, that you believe there is, that is obvious, that you experience, that you feel, memories, ... everything. You just know that you exist. You don't know what you are, what exists, ... You don't know anything else. Then he seemed to have realized / hypothesized that the physical reality he experienced wasn't an objective reality, it somehow was only his creation. I haven't read enough of his opinions to know if he suggested how this creation happens, or more. He also realized / hypothesized that what he is in the physical reality is actually a state of something else; there is something "behind" it. I don't know what he suggest that that might be. But, it doesn't matter what he believed, if he was right or wrong, how distorted his hypotheses were. To me it matters only what I can learn from my inner source of knowledge and guidance, and in order to minimize the inherent distortions, to leave aside everything, to "completely empty the cup". This thread is not offered as an authority or as an alternative to picking up and sitting with one of his books for a few months. But it is offered as a gentle stroll through the quotes that appealed to previous posters on various days, over a period of 4 years. I hope it's an enjoyable walk. spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2571/daily-niz-discussionThanks! My highlight and [reformulation]: “All you want is to be happy. All your desires, whatever they may be, are longing for happiness. Basically, you wish yourself well...desire by itself is not wrong. It is life itself, the urge to grow in knowledge and experience. It is choices you make that are wrong. To imagine that some little thing-food, sex, power, fame-will make you happy is to deceive oneself. Only something as vast and deep as your real [inner] self can make you truly and lastingly happy.” |
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Post by sharon on Sept 9, 2024 18:50:30 GMT -5
This thread is not offered as an authority or as an alternative to picking up and sitting with one of his books for a few months. But it is offered as a gentle stroll through the quotes that appealed to previous posters on various days, over a period of 11 years. I hope it's an enjoyable walk. spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2571/daily-niz-discussionThanks! My highlight and [reformulation]: “All you want is to be happy. All your desires, whatever they may be, are longing for happiness. Basically, you wish yourself well...desire by itself is not wrong. It is life itself, the urge to grow in knowledge and experience. It is choices you make that are wrong. To imagine that some little thing-food, sex, power, fame-will make you happy is to deceive oneself. Only something as vast and deep as your real [inner] self can make you truly and lastingly happy.” Pleasure Yeah the 'inner' is the origin, though when we're talking about the 'vast and the deep' any boundary between an inner and an outer self is artificial. As in, it's only imagined into existence. |
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Post by lolly on Sept 10, 2024 4:13:48 GMT -5
It's weird, but 'this is how it is', so I help my sister with yard stuff, and she's a lot like me with no identity, but of course the personality is there, formed by the whole of the past to turn out like 'this', much like a canyon was formed over eons by the weather that happened - to turn out the way it is. Likewise, I am this way by fate, and there's no actual continuous identity than can make it somehow other, though change is ongoing, but for the majority of people there is an effort of becoming who they want to be, without acceptance of 'this is how I am', but it's not always easy to come to peace with the whole of one's past, and thereby, the person that they are.
So there is no brother / sister relationship? There's no association had between your parents and your sister, you and your parents? I mean when push comes to shove you say that you help your sister out with gardening stuff. (kudda done with your help today myself) . Back breaking shovelling and fence work, uprooting trees etc. The way I see identification working is quite straightforward really, you talk about your sister because you identify with what that means to you. I think that for some, they think that if they identify as being a mum or a dad or a brother or sister they are kinda trapped in some kind of identity fraud lol, but there is nothing wrong with identifying oneself as this and that. It doesn't mean that its the be all and end all of what one believes of oneself to be. It's self identifying. It's self recognition. To be totally unidentified in my eyes would mean there is no recognition of someone being one's sister. This isn't the case is it in your relationship. Change is a constant as everyone knows, identity therefore can change. It isn't a problem. She's my sister because of ancestry, and she can be difficult, but I'm stuck with her because the past is what it is and this is how it eventuated. I don't have to identify as her brother because it's a matter of biological fact. There was a long, long line of ancestors that led to this, and the facts as they are now are the outcomes of the past.
The point is, not identifying isn't different to identifying. I think people are looking for everything to be different, but it isn't. It's the way it is - only me, my, mine, I is more imaginary than real.
This is not the same as an ego identity like 'I'm a man' or something. It's a fact of nature such as I am male. It's not optional. It's just how nature is. It's in the blood.
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Post by lolly on Sept 10, 2024 4:20:12 GMT -5
It's not really 'stop chasing' as such, but when craving occurs one knows 'this is craving', so in meditation when they say the mind is peaceful etc, it's not actually 'how it is'. Maybe the mind is going completely wild. Meditation is knowing 'the mind is going wild'. One can be on their little sailing boat in a calm still sea, then it gets windy, the swell rises up, and a big storm blows you around, and it passes, so the meditator just knows 'this is what it's like' with the understanding 'it won't last long'. The old salt has seen it come and go a thousand times before, so to him, another storm is just par for the course, and he's not perturbed by anything It comes along with the beautiful plan to reach the destination. We say there is a final goal, but the destination is right here, right now. |
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Post by zazeniac on Sept 10, 2024 5:26:53 GMT -5
The problem with edicts regarding reality is their slippery nature. Telling people(hahaha-nonexistent people) to stop chasing might as well be telling them to chase stopping chasing. There's quite a bit more to it. It's not really 'stop chasing' as such, but when craving occurs one knows 'this is craving', so in meditation when they say the mind is peaceful etc, it's not actually 'how it is'. Maybe the mind is going completely wild. Meditation is knowing 'the mind is going wild'. One can be on their little sailing boat in a calm still sea, then it gets windy, the swell rises up, and a big storm blows you around, and it passes, so the meditator just knows 'this is what it's like' with the understanding 'it won't last long'. The old salt has seen it come and go a thousand times before, so to him, another storm is just par for the course, and he's not perturbed by anything I went back and read the original post. What you describe is true. It's a form of practice. I don't think Gopal is an advocate of meditation or any form of practice. But I could be wrong. |
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Post by Gopal on Sept 10, 2024 8:30:07 GMT -5
It comes along with the beautiful plan to reach the destination. We say there is a final goal, but the destination is right here, right now.  |
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Post by Gopal on Sept 10, 2024 8:31:36 GMT -5
It's not really 'stop chasing' as such, but when craving occurs one knows 'this is craving', so in meditation when they say the mind is peaceful etc, it's not actually 'how it is'. Maybe the mind is going completely wild. Meditation is knowing 'the mind is going wild'. One can be on their little sailing boat in a calm still sea, then it gets windy, the swell rises up, and a big storm blows you around, and it passes, so the meditator just knows 'this is what it's like' with the understanding 'it won't last long'. The old salt has seen it come and go a thousand times before, so to him, another storm is just par for the course, and he's not perturbed by anything I went back and read the original post. What you describe is true. It's a form of practice. I don't think Gopal is an advocate of meditation or any form of practice. But I could be wrong.You are right. I don’t advocate for meditation or any specific practice. True freedom comes from clarity, but achieving that clarity is beyond our control. |
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roscod
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Post by roscod on Sept 10, 2024 9:04:19 GMT -5
I went back and read the original post. What you describe is true. It's a form of practice. I don't think Gopal is an advocate of meditation or any form of practice. But I could be wrong.You are right. I don’t advocate for meditation or any specific practice. True freedom comes from clarity, but achieving that clarity is beyond our control. I thought that was why we meditated and do other practices - to prepare for the arrival of clarity? We don't achieve it specifically. We do our best to be ready if/when it arrives. |
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Post by Gopal on Sept 10, 2024 20:03:00 GMT -5
You are right. I don’t advocate for meditation or any specific practice. True freedom comes from clarity, but achieving that clarity is beyond our control. I thought that was why we meditated and do other practices - to prepare for the arrival of clarity? We don't achieve it specifically. We do our best to be ready if/when it arrives. Mind is the slave to the truth, it surrenders once it sees the truth and it alters it's action after seeing the truth. Truth comes from clarity. Reaching the clarity is beyond our control. None of our action would yield anything. We may realise the futility of our effort for sure but that effort would not bring us anywhere. |
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roscod
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Post by roscod on Sept 10, 2024 20:29:36 GMT -5
I thought that was why we meditated and do other practices - to prepare for the arrival of clarity? We don't achieve it specifically. We do our best to be ready if/when it arrives. Mind is the slave to the truth, it surrenders once it sees the truth and it alters it's action after seeing the truth. Truth comes from clarity. Reaching the clarity is beyond our control. None of our action would yield anything. We may realise the futility of our effort for sure but that effort would not bring us anywhere. If truth comes from clarity and reaching clarity is beyond our control then when does the mind see truth? |
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Post by sharon on Sept 11, 2024 2:40:07 GMT -5
Mind is the slave to the truth, it surrenders once it sees the truth and it alters it's action after seeing the truth. Truth comes from clarity. Reaching the clarity is beyond our control. None of our action would yield anything. We may realise the futility of our effort for sure but that effort would not bring us anywhere. If truth comes from clarity and reaching clarity is beyond our control then when does the mind see truth? When Gopal talks about reaching clarity, he's talking about those Eureka moments, where everything makes sense in an instant. It's quite clear that those moments are not handled by memory so what does handle them is a scientific anomaly. The truth of the new directions that are born in those moments, are what we call an 'informing of mind'. |
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Post by lolly on Sept 11, 2024 3:02:20 GMT -5
It's not really 'stop chasing' as such, but when craving occurs one knows 'this is craving', so in meditation when they say the mind is peaceful etc, it's not actually 'how it is'. Maybe the mind is going completely wild. Meditation is knowing 'the mind is going wild'. One can be on their little sailing boat in a calm still sea, then it gets windy, the swell rises up, and a big storm blows you around, and it passes, so the meditator just knows 'this is what it's like' with the understanding 'it won't last long'. The old salt has seen it come and go a thousand times before, so to him, another storm is just par for the course, and he's not perturbed by anything I went back and read the original post. What you describe is true. It's a form of practice. I don't think Gopal is an advocate of meditation or any form of practice. But I could be wrong. It's a practice of everything, and all experience is an opportunity to stay calm. |
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. Back breaking shovelling and fence work, uprooting trees etc.
