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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 31, 2022 13:56:41 GMT -5
"How can one get beyond self?" Who/what is it that asks this question? The question is based upon the idea that there is something separate that can cease to be separate. How would that be possible? The SVP cannot get beyond the SVP because the SVP, itself, is an illusion. Whether that illusion gets penetrated is solely a function of the unfolding of THIS. Imagine that two people listen to Niz's advice to "go beyond the mind." One person ignores the advice and the other person follows the advice and wakes up to THIS. What determined either outcome when there's nothing separate from THIS? If there is no thought of selfhood, does a sense of selfhood remain? Does the sense of selfhood not come and go dependent upon reflective thoughts? Yes, in the context that question is asked, there is no answer to that question. See post above. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2022 13:57:29 GMT -5
Guys, happy new year!
I wish you all a great new year and a prosperous future!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 31, 2022 14:05:37 GMT -5
Guys, happy new year! I wish you all a great new year and a prosperous future! Happy New Year Gopal! |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 31, 2022 14:15:37 GMT -5
Yes. Someone once said, we can ask what we want, but we can't will the question we should be asking, instead of the one we ask. If you leave aside your beliefs and expectations for a moment, you can firstly intuitionally ask, and learn "what you should ask". I do it often. But then it come back to who hears the answer? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 31, 2022 14:35:32 GMT -5
Exactly. Is there a way to get around that? (Almost everybody I read here on ST's brings me back to that question). Sorry. I don't understand that assertion. You seem to say, as per Schopenhauer's quote, that your ego's wish comes from somewhere else. What makes you say that? Where do your ego's wishes come from? From whom? I think that your ego wishes whatever it wants (a.k.a. free-will) in the frame of its beliefs, as result of its perceptions of the reality created by your subconscious, to the extent of its abilities to respond instinctually, emotionally, intellectually, intuitionally. Read my longer reply to ZD above. Just briefly. We are born as essence, our true self. As soon as the baby is born, incoming information is stored in our neural structure, and network of connecting neurons, thousands and thousands of connections. The average person has more neural connections than there are stars in the universe (that's about 100,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000), so wes is complicated. By about age six, these form what we refer to as self. But it is a false self, an imaginary self, our true self, essence, is buried underneath. So this so-called SVP can only operate from its own programming, it can never get beyond its programming, this is like trying to jump over your own knees. But it is possible to once again live through one's essence (to once again be-essence). Now, from what you say (overall), it seems inavalan has recovered essence and lives through essence. But sdp can't say for sure. I'm petty sure ZD lives through essence, about 99.999% sure. But he accepts ~where he is now~, to be the end of the journey. It's not, I'm sure it's not. As far as I can tell, most everybody else here is a ~mixture~ of essence and small s self (the so-called SVP). Some "less confident", here, probably are more-in essence. inavalan is way out over the edge from most everybody else here. sdp can't discern if that is indeed true, or if it's all just an elaborate ~mind-map~ (an abstraction). The proof of the pudding is in the eating. So you can know, but I can't know that you know. |
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Post by tenka on Dec 31, 2022 14:51:30 GMT -5
Sorry. I don't understand that assertion. You seem to say, as per Schopenhauer's quote, that your ego's wish comes from somewhere else. What makes you say that? Where do your ego's wishes come from? From whom? I think that your ego wishes whatever it wants (a.k.a. free-will) in the frame of its beliefs, as result of its perceptions of the reality created by your subconscious, to the extent of its abilities to respond instinctually, emotionally, intellectually, intuitionally. Read my longer reply to ZD above. Just briefly. We are born as essence, our true self. .. well it's more about being born not remembering what we are and what identity we entertained prior to incarnation. Many believe in this clean stale mentality, where we are all born fluffy and GodLike but the waters are a lot more muddied than that . Conditioning inevitably happens and we can become a reflection of that in many shapes and forms . It would be beneficial to know why one subjects themselves to certain conditionings in the first place .. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 31, 2022 14:55:41 GMT -5
Exactly. Is there a way to get around that? (Almost everybody I read here on ST's brings me back to that question). 'Get around' meaning what? I've been saying something similar for years, that you cannot choose your desires. Why are you thinking that? Which "you"? Generally, man is dominated by emotions, is developing and intellect, and almost no use of intuition. But those are on a bell-distribution curve, the tails being more, respectively less evolved than the bulk. I think there's no use for my speculating on why you think that. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 31, 2022 15:04:52 GMT -5
'Get around' meaning what? I've been saying something similar for years, that you cannot choose your desires. I'm asking, how does change take place? We have thoughts, feelings, body-actions (and sensations). What we are it seems, is a strange loop. Our thoughts, feelings, bodily actions result from past thoughts, feelings, actions, and our thoughts, feelings, bodily actions plant the seeds for future "harvesting". We have a repeating cycle. If one cannot choose their desires, then are we doomed to be a repeating strange loop? How does one come to truth? How can one get beyond self? is a belief. As I understand these, the point of power is the present; both the past as we "remember", and the future as we get into, are sourced from the present. There is no cause-effect based on physical-time. Think about your dream experience, when you don't know that you are dreaming, when you just live it. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 31, 2022 15:24:12 GMT -5
Read my longer reply to ZD above. Just briefly. We are born as essence, our true self. .. well it's more about being born not remembering what we are and what identity we entertained prior to incarnation. Many believe in this clean stale mentality, where we are all born fluffy and GodLike but the waters are a lot more muddied than that . Conditioning inevitably happens and we can become a reflection of that in many shapes and forms . It would be beneficial to know why one subjects themselves to certain conditionings in the first place .. I first learned about reincarnation when I was about ten, there was a local guy, Joe Myers, who was a guest on a local TV news program regularly, discussed it every time he was on. I was attracted by the idea from the start, and it grew on me more and more. No, we are not born with a clean slate. The vasanas carry over (the ~person~ doesn't). logicareencarnacao.wixsite.com/logica/copia-caso-joseph-myers-1 |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 31, 2022 15:45:09 GMT -5
If you leave aside your beliefs and expectations for a moment, you can firstly intuitionally ask, and learn "what you should ask". I do it often. But then it come back to who hears the answer? , which is the part / state of your personality when focused awake in the physical-reality. The answer comes from your inner-guidance, which assists your personality in its evolvement quest. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 31, 2022 15:46:07 GMT -5
I'm asking, how does change take place? We have thoughts, feelings, body-actions (and sensations). What we are it seems, is a strange loop. Our thoughts, feelings, bodily actions result from past thoughts, feelings, actions, and our thoughts, feelings, bodily actions plant the seeds for future "harvesting". We have a repeating cycle. If one cannot choose their desires, then are we doomed to be a repeating strange loop? How does one come to truth? How can one get beyond self? By seeing the world thru the eyes of Source. Then these questions will disappear because the answer is so utterly obvious. Happy New Year! (Mine is in 8 & 1/2 hours). Yea, I have no reference for that. And I don't put too much stock in words, or pixels on a computer screen. I only know attention and awareness, and where they lead, what the next step is. So this could be imagination on your part, or not, I can't know any different. You could be 100% truthful and accurate, but I can't know. I can only know my own consciousness (that word not to be taken lightly). I don't know if what you refer to as Source, is indeed Source. It's the same for me for everybody else here. Nothing personal, I just know how powerful imagination is. But this post is in relation to the reply to ZD, that is, continued. Let's just take the Sun for instance. There is an Intelligence that formed the Sun (or the something we refer to as the Sun). I know I am no-where-near touching that Intelligence, much less 'looking through those eyes'. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 31, 2022 15:51:18 GMT -5
But then it come back to who hears the answer? , which is the part / state of your personality when focused awake in the physical-reality. The answer comes from your inner-guidance, which assists your personality in its evolvement quest. Well, see, then we do not define ego the same way. (See my reply to ZD above). For me, ego is merely a ~program~, it isn't a living thing. It's a "computer program" that passes the Turing Test. Ever see Blade Runner or Blade Runner 2049? (Metaphor). |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 31, 2022 16:09:50 GMT -5
Sorry. I don't understand that assertion. You seem to say, as per Schopenhauer's quote, that your ego's wish comes from somewhere else. What makes you say that? Where do your ego's wishes come from? From whom? I think that your ego wishes whatever it wants (a.k.a. free-will) in the frame of its beliefs, as result of its perceptions of the reality created by your subconscious, to the extent of its abilities to respond instinctually, emotionally, intellectually, intuitionally. Read my longer reply to ZD above. Just briefly. We are born as essence, our true self. As soon as the baby is born, incoming information is stored in our neural structure, and network of connecting neurons, thousands and thousands of connections. The average person has more neural connections than there are stars in the universe (that's about 100,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000), so wes is complicated. By about age six, these form what we refer to as self. But it is a false self, an imaginary self, our true self, essence, is buried underneath. So this so-called SVP can only operate from its own programming, it can never get beyond its programming, this is like trying to jump over your own knees. But it is possible to once again live through one's essence (to once again be-essence). Now, from what you say (overall), it seems inavalan has recovered essence and lives through essence. But sdp can't say for sure. I'm petty sure ZD lives through essence, about 99.999% sure. But he accepts ~where he is now~, to be the end of the journey. It's not, I'm sure it's not. As far as I can tell, most everybody else here is a ~mixture~ of essence and small s self (the so-called SVP). Some "less confident", here, probably are more-in essence. inavalan is way out over the edge from most everybody else here. sdp can't discern if that is indeed true, or if it's all just an elaborate ~mind-map~ (an abstraction). The proof of the pudding is in the eating. So you can know, but I can't know that you know. Thanks for your reply. I confess that sometimes I find it difficult to follow, because of the scientific angle, and because of the different terminology. It is easier to explain my view, than to comment on others'. There is also some reticence on commenting, because I don't intend to argue the merits of my views, nor others', more than for creating symbolic opportunities. Getting back at " Man can do what he wants but cannot want what he wants." - Arthur Schopenhauer The only way that that could make sense to me is: - man = ego
he = whole-self
substituting "cannot" with "doesn't"
Your ego doesn't want what your whole-self wants. And this is because, for most of us, our egos are "separated" from our whole-selves. They don't have to be. There are limiting beliefs in play that make it so, and those limiting beliefs can be, and should be identified and dispelled. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 31, 2022 16:17:06 GMT -5
Sorry. I don't understand that assertion. You seem to say, as per Schopenhauer's quote, that your ego's wish comes from somewhere else. What makes you say that? Where do your ego's wishes come from? From whom? I think that your ego wishes whatever it wants (a.k.a. free-will) in the frame of its beliefs, as result of its perceptions of the reality created by your subconscious, to the extent of its abilities to respond instinctually, emotionally, intellectually, intuitionally. Read my longer reply to ZD above. Just briefly. We are born as essence, our true self. As soon as the baby is born, incoming information is stored in our neural structure, and network of connecting neurons, thousands and thousands of connections. The average person has more neural connections than there are stars in the universe (that's about 100,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000), so wes is complicated. By about age six, these form what we refer to as self. But it is a false self, an imaginary self, our true self, essence, is buried underneath. So this so-called SVP can only operate from its own programming, it can never get beyond its programming, this is like trying to jump over your own knees. But it is possible to once again live through one's essence (to once again be-essence). Now, from what you say (overall), it seems inavalan has recovered essence and lives through essence. But sdp can't say for sure. I'm petty sure ZD lives through essence, about 99.999% sure. But he accepts ~where he is now~, to be the end of the journey. It's not, I'm sure it's not. As far as I can tell, most everybody else here is a ~mixture~ of essence and small s self (the so-called SVP). Some "less confident", here, probably are more-in essence. inavalan is way out over the edge from most everybody else here. sdp can't discern if that is indeed true, or if it's all just an elaborate ~mind-map~ (an abstraction). The proof of the pudding is in the eating. So you can know, but I can't know that you know. Just to be clear, from my POV there is no "end to the journey" because how THIS will unfold is unknowable. THIS is infinite and beyond concept (including the concept of a beginning or an end). If one discovers that there are no boundaries (except in imagination) and that all thoughts about reality are imaginary, then THIS/the Unborn is the only thingless thing that is capable of contemplating its own isness, asking questions, finding answers, or doing anything else. What will THIS, manifesting as a human being, do next? It's like asking, "What thought will occur next?" Seeking usually comes to an end as soon as realizations occur that result in peace of mind, and that will vary from human to human. Some people have dozens of questions/issues that need to be resolved, and some people have very few. I go for a walk every day or so, and I carry along a pen and something to write on because while walking in silence thoughts will suddenly appear that suggest possible future courses of action. Today I was walking past a piece of property that I've thought about buying for improvement and resale. I hadn't pursued the issue because the property is rocky and might not have enough topsoil for a septic system for a 3 bedroom home. In the past I thought about making an offer and putting in a contingency that the property be approved by the environmental authorities. I would have to initiate a purchase contract, stake out a future home and driveway, and then pay the environmental office $1000 to get an inspector to determine if they would approve it for a 3 bedroom home. If they refused to approve it, I would exercise the contingency and lose $1000. Today, as I walked by the property, it suddenly dawned on me that I could pay a soil scientist $150 for an unofficial opinion that would give me a good sense of whether the property would be approved or not. A new idea right out of the subconscious! I can meet a soils guy at the property, describe the potential layout, and not have to stake anything out. He could punch a few holes in the ground, look at the soils, and give me an opinion. If negative, I'm only out $150. If positive, I make an offer, do the stakeout, pay $1000, and the odds for success would be worth the effort and risk. Gotta love how THIS comes up with new ideas!  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 31, 2022 17:37:18 GMT -5
Read my longer reply to ZD above. Just briefly. We are born as essence, our true self. As soon as the baby is born, incoming information is stored in our neural structure, and network of connecting neurons, thousands and thousands of connections. The average person has more neural connections than there are stars in the universe (that's about 100,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000), so wes is complicated. By about age six, these form what we refer to as self. But it is a false self, an imaginary self, our true self, essence, is buried underneath. So this so-called SVP can only operate from its own programming, it can never get beyond its programming, this is like trying to jump over your own knees. But it is possible to once again live through one's essence (to once again be-essence). Now, from what you say (overall), it seems inavalan has recovered essence and lives through essence. But sdp can't say for sure. I'm petty sure ZD lives through essence, about 99.999% sure. But he accepts ~where he is now~, to be the end of the journey. It's not, I'm sure it's not. As far as I can tell, most everybody else here is a ~mixture~ of essence and small s self (the so-called SVP). Some "less confident", here, probably are more-in essence. inavalan is way out over the edge from most everybody else here. sdp can't discern if that is indeed true, or if it's all just an elaborate ~mind-map~ (an abstraction). The proof of the pudding is in the eating. So you can know, but I can't know that you know. Thanks for your reply. I confess that sometimes I find it difficult to follow, because of the scientific angle, and because of the different terminology. It is easier to explain my view, than to comment on others'. There is also some reticence on commenting, because I don't intend to argue the merits of my views, nor others', more than for creating symbolic opportunities. Getting back at " Man can do what he wants but cannot want what he wants." - Arthur Schopenhauer The only way that that could make sense to me is: - man = ego
he = whole-self
substituting "cannot" with "doesn't"
Your ego doesn't want what your whole-self wants. And this is because, for most of us, our egos are "separated" from our whole-selves. They don't have to be. There are limiting beliefs in play that make it so, and those limiting beliefs can be, and should be identified and dispelled. I can agree with this. To be clear, you are saying that you are aware of your whole-self? I don't doubt that's possible, that's the whole purpose of being here. And you are also saying that whole-self extends beyond space and time? (As we know space and time). As I am perfectly confident of ~the process~, it can be put into two words. Can you put it into two words? (In a nutshell). Also as I understand it, dispelling the limited beliefs is not enough. What's further? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but yes, I'm putting you on the spot. Putting words on a screen is easy. |
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