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Post by siftingtothetruth on Dec 24, 2022 20:39:23 GMT -5
In order for the practice to take place effectively, the mind must have the ability to concentrate. This requires that the mind be quiet enough.  The practice itself helps accomplish this, but there are other ways that facilitate this. One of the most important is psychoanalysis, which is not the same as any kind of psychological therapy. There are many other kinds. However, I believe psychoanalysis to generally be the best choice. FAQ on psychoanalysis here |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 29, 2022 21:54:02 GMT -5
I agree, some people on the path would be better off seeing the therapist or psychiatrist than a non-duality teacher.
I'm curious, in the context of this video, how would you explain Ramana's cancer? Dirty mirror?
Your link doesn't work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 3:50:02 GMT -5
[In order for the practice to take place effectively, the mind must have the ability to concentrate. This requires that the mind be quiet enough.  The practice itself helps accomplish this, but there are other ways that facilitate this. One of the most important is psychoanalysis, which is not the same as any kind of psychological therapy. There are many other kinds. However, I believe psychoanalysis to generally be the best choice. FAQ on psychoanalysis here what is it with Americans and psychoanalysis? 😀 You have inadvertently put your finger on what's wrong with Western non-duality teachers and teachings which confuses pschoanalysis and spirituality. I imagine Ramana would have had a chuckle and rolled his eyes at such a suggestion. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jan 3, 2023 0:57:55 GMT -5
I agree, some people on the path would be better off seeing the therapist or psychiatrist than a non-duality teacher. I'm curious, in the context of this video, how would you explain Ramana's cancer? Dirty mirror? Your link doesn't work. Sure, you might be able to pin Ramana's cancer in some sense to some remnant dirt on his mirror, so to say, though regardless his mirror was more than clean enough for him to be able to recognize his reflection... so I wouldn't call his mirror "dirty." Sorry, updated the link. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jan 3, 2023 1:05:13 GMT -5
[In order for the practice to take place effectively, the mind must have the ability to concentrate. This requires that the mind be quiet enough.  The practice itself helps accomplish this, but there are other ways that facilitate this. One of the most important is psychoanalysis, which is not the same as any kind of psychological therapy. There are many other kinds. However, I believe psychoanalysis to generally be the best choice. FAQ on psychoanalysis here what is it with Americans and psychoanalysis? 😀 You have inadvertently put your finger on what's wrong with Western non-duality teachers and teachings which confuses pschoanalysis and spirituality. I imagine Ramana would have had a chuckle and rolled his eyes at such a suggestion. Nah. He would likely have had great respect for it. It doesn't sound like you're aware that the Vedantic tradition (and the Buddhist tradition, and likely any other spiritual traditions of depth) have the ideas of purity of mind, which was cultivated 100 different ways before final teachings were expected to be fully absorbed. Morality, diet, various devotional practices, and many more things were recommended to prepare the student to be 'qualified' to really understand the final teachings. Ramana was a sort of revolutionary in that he was not concerned to pre-qualify students before giving them the final teachings... but he well understood that many would simply not be ripe enough to absorb what he was saying, and that they needed those preliminaries. Psychoanalysis is simply a modern extension of these purificatory practices. Indeed, in the past serious seekers would go to study under teachers at ashrams... teachers who would act essentially in loco parentis and as confessors of sorts. Thus taking what might today be very much understood as a therapeutic role. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 1:16:19 GMT -5
what is it with Americans and psychoanalysis? 😀 You have inadvertently put your finger on what's wrong with Western non-duality teachers and teachings which confuses pschoanalysis and spirituality. I imagine Ramana would have had a chuckle and rolled his eyes at such a suggestion. Nah. He would likely have had great respect for it. It doesn't sound like you're aware that the Vedantic tradition (and the Buddhist tradition, and likely any other spiritual traditions of depth) have the ideas of purity of mind, which was cultivated 100 different ways before final teachings were expected to be fully absorbed. Morality, diet, various devotional practices, and many more things were recommended to prepare the student to be 'qualified' to really understand the final teachings. Ramana was a sort of revolutionary in that he was not concerned to pre-qualify students before giving them the final teachings... but he well understood that many would simply not be ripe enough to absorb what he was saying, and that they needed those preliminaries. Psychoanalysis is simply a modern extension of these purificatory practices. Indeed, in the past serious seekers would go to study under teachers at ashrams... teachers who would act essentially in loco parentis and as confessors of sorts. Thus taking what might today be very much understood as a therapeutic role. Nah. I can see you are really trying to bend this to try and fit your definition, but no, psychoanalysis is not a modern-day version of traditional vedantic practices which I'm well aware of. The Vedic prerequisites for a seeker do not represent psychoanalysis in any shape or form whatsoever and if you want to classify purification in terms of yoga principles that too is a million miles away from psychoanalysis which treats the person as something that can be modified. In fact Ramana Maharshi made a very specific point of avoiding all questions to do with specific personal problems of those who came to see him because he was only interested in the Universal. He probably would have said go and see a shrink. Nice try though. As I've always said the best way to transcend ego is to start with a strong and stable ego. If the ego is having problems then you shouldn't be going anywhere near a non-duality teacher. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jan 3, 2023 2:51:34 GMT -5
I agree, some people on the path would be better off seeing the therapist or psychiatrist than a non-duality teacher. I've found in my work with students that it's not necessarily an either-or. There can be immense benefit to doing both at once. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 3, 2023 5:37:21 GMT -5
[In order for the practice to take place effectively, the mind must have the ability to concentrate. This requires that the mind be quiet enough.  The practice itself helps accomplish this, but there are other ways that facilitate this. One of the most important is psychoanalysis, which is not the same as any kind of psychological therapy. There are many other kinds. However, I believe psychoanalysis to generally be the best choice. FAQ on psychoanalysis here what is it with Americans and psychoanalysis? 😀 You have inadvertently put your finger on what's wrong with Western non-duality teachers and teachings which confuses pschoanalysis and spirituality. I imagine Ramana would have had a chuckle and rolled his eyes at such a suggestion. I can understand this sentiment, but, on the other hand, all the traditional AV stuff I've read about places emphasis at the beginning stages to getting present, quieting the mind, noticing the "inner turmoil". |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 6:29:51 GMT -5
what is it with Americans and psychoanalysis? 😀 You have inadvertently put your finger on what's wrong with Western non-duality teachers and teachings which confuses pschoanalysis and spirituality. I imagine Ramana would have had a chuckle and rolled his eyes at such a suggestion. I can understand this sentiment, but, on the other hand, all the traditional AV stuff I've read about places emphasis at the beginning stages to getting present, quieting the mind, noticing the "inner turmoil". psychoanalysis noun psy·cho·anal·y·sis : a method of analyzing psychic phenomena and treating emotional disorders that involves treatment sessions during which the patient is encouraged to talk freely about personal experiences and especially about early childhood and dreams. Not really Vedanta is it? Psychoanalysis wants to do something about that inner turmoil but vedantic meditation just asks you to notice it then transcend it and experience non-dual awareness. There is no concern for the contents of these thoughts. This is what happened. Followers mostly of Papaji like Mooji and Gangaji among others set themselves up as non-duality gurus without a deep understanding of the vedantic texts. To make up for their lack of knowledge they started to grab and incorporate what they were familiar with, psychoanalysis mixed in with Californian psychobabble. That's why Western non-duality teachers talk an awful lot about concepts and emotions etc. That's not Vedanta which presents timeless philosophical truths. That's all. No attempt to solve personal problems or issues because as far as the Advaita Vedanta is concerned all of that is just mere appearance which appears and disappears. Vedanta is concerned with timeless universal truth. Your immortal Self. You don't get that on the analyst's couch. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 3, 2023 6:41:25 GMT -5
I can understand this sentiment, but, on the other hand, all the traditional AV stuff I've read about places emphasis at the beginning stages to getting present, quieting the mind, noticing the "inner turmoil". psychoanalysis noun psy·cho·anal·y·sis : a method of analyzing psychic phenomena and treating emotional disorders that involves treatment sessions during which the patient is encouraged to talk freely about personal experiences and especially about early childhood and dreams. Not really Vedanta is it? Psychoanalysis wants to do something about that inner turmoil but vedantic meditation just asks you to notice it then transcend it and experience non-dual awareness. There is no concern for the contents of these thoughts. This is what happened. Followers mostly of Papaji like Mooji and Gangaji among others set themselves up as non-duality gurus without a deep understanding of the vedantic texts. To make up for their lack of knowledge they started to grab and incorporate what they were familiar with, psychoanalysis mixed in with Californian psychobabble. That's why Western non-duality teachers talk an awful lot about concepts and emotions etc. That's not Vedanta which presents timeless philosophical truths. That's all. No attempt to solve personal problems or issues because as far as the Advaita Vedanta is concerned all of that is just mere appearance which appears and disappears. Vedanta is concerned with timeless universal truth. Your immortal Self. You don't get that on the analyst's couch. Read an account of a woman who was in deep with Andy Cohen, and the cliff notes are that he went to war with everyone's ego but his own, so I'd guess that your criticism has some validity, generally speaking. But the type of meditation you're referring to, one can either luck into it, or seek it out consciously. If the latter, then it's almost inevitable that the seeker will eventually self-reflect along the way as various misconceptions are recognized. Everyone is different, and it will never play out exactly the same way twice, but what you're describing is rather rarified air. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 3, 2023 6:47:34 GMT -5
satch', I'd also add that the "goal" of what traditional AV seems to me to be driving at would have to inevitably diverge from self-improvement. But, by the same token, the steps along most ways of approaching this can be quite beneficial to people who take them. I'd also agree that a practice like psychoanalysis would have the potential to re-enforce the observer/observed the person/world, witness/witnessed duality. So can some mindfulness practices or even meditation.
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