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Post by inavalan on Nov 28, 2022 14:35:50 GMT -5
Yeah. Accepting WHAT IS means that if I saw someone drowning I'd just accept it and keep walking. What nonsense! Some of you need to start taking your meds again.  |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 28, 2022 14:52:02 GMT -5
Yes, accepting "what is" doesn't mean that one won't help others, work to relieve suffering, donate to charitable causes, work for climate change or world peace, or take whatever appropriate actions seem most applicable in whatever situation arises. The "deeper principle," when embodied, is not self-centered; it is Self-centered. I like the way you expressed this (and shadowplay's words too). In my view, people aren't here to accept and experience, but to deal with whatever their egos encounter, with the purpose of the whole-self's evolvement. We aren't here to suffer, but to find ways to alleviate our (individual) suffering. And the purpose is in becoming able to alleviate suffering (evolving, acquiring a capability), not in just not-suffering. I think that some attempts at mitigating the contradictions between one's stated beliefs and his actual actions are just intellectual acrobatics (without net). |
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Post by zazeniac on Nov 28, 2022 15:16:55 GMT -5
Yeah. Accepting WHAT IS means that if I saw someone drowning I'd just accept it and keep walking. What nonsense! Some of you need to start taking your meds again.
Who are you railing at, zazeniac? You talking to me?
Accepting what is doesn't mean stifling all impulses to respond to things at hand. "WHAT IS" means one's situation in life. Someone drowning is not quite the same as mankind drowning.
Foolish folk for the first question. Does the shoe fit for the second? I can only do one drowning hooooman at a time. I'll let you tough guys do the heavy lifting of mankind saving. Too much for me. Plus, I'm old. Don't you ever take a break? I need a break. The nonsenseometer is off the scale in some of these discussions. Turned my phone off for a few days last time. I think I like that. You should try it. |
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Post by tenka on Nov 28, 2022 15:47:08 GMT -5
I saw a little of this video .. I thought Tolle was a little niave to be honest suggesting that these world leaders don't really have an agenda. I think from what I watched Russel was a little too respectful and didn't say wtf Tolle  ok so I re-watched it .. (this time all the way through) Tolle did say that Brand was doing something right if he's being called a conspiracy theorist. He also acknowledged the "great reset" plan, and made reference to the insane narratives that are being created. He also (later on near the very end) acknowledges that there are interest groups working behind the scenes. So, now, the part that I guess you're referring to probly starts around 6:25 where he says that "it's all been planned is one way of looking at it ...", and then at the end when he referred to "they know not what they do". Would that be right?The distinction between negligence and malice is an interesting one that runs as a thread throughout the law. It also eventually winds up at yet another version of the existential question. E' used to say that "the larger context Donald Trumps the little context."  .. so I'd say that Tolle doesn't entirely discount the notion that there are nefarious top-down agenda's, but rather, he puts them into an existential context. Yes, that about the size of it . Tolle at that point was just referring to how stupid these people are with there being no agenda per se . If he spoke like you said later on to suggest there are groups working behind the scenes then fair enough, but it seems that he thinks that those that are making the stupid decisions are none the wiser . I made my comment mainly because I thought that Russel held back some what in these times because he likes him and respects him . If you listen to Russel often then you know he doesn't really hold back, especially with the corruption of big Pharma and government leaders and officials. |
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Post by andrew on Nov 28, 2022 16:12:59 GMT -5
I like the way you expressed this (and shadowplay's words too). In my view, people aren't here to accept and experience, but to deal with whatever their egos encounter, with the purpose of the whole-self's evolvement. We aren't here to suffer, but to find ways to alleviate our (individual) suffering. And the purpose is in becoming able to alleviate suffering (evolving, acquiring a capability), not in just not-suffering. I think that some attempts at mitigating the contradictions between one's stated beliefs and his actual actions are just intellectual acrobatics (without net). I see 'acceptance' as important to the alleviation of suffering, but it's a confusing word, and I liked the way that Shadowplay and ZD clarified it. Let me see if I can add 2 cents....okay.... One of the ways that humans create extra layers of suffering for themselves is through strongly judging the array of internal states and feelings. For example, someone may experience a sense of unhappiness and then be unhappy about the fact that they are unhappy! Animals don't do that. Whatever an animal experiences internally in any given moment is 'it'. They do still respond to their internal states and feelings, but they don't judge them and deepen the suffering. I would say that a vast amount of anxiety, stress, desperation and misery is a result of that 'second layer' of judgement. In fact, there can be many layers...some folks create layer upon layer of that crap. So that to extent, 'acceptance' is about that first layer. The immediate 'what is'. But, a bit like like you, my spiritual journey isn't just about acceptance. I'm also inclined to creativity. So while I believe that acceptance is important, I will also look at how I am creating that 'first layer'. I think it's reasonable to say that some dogs are generally happier than other dogs (that's why we seek to give them a good home). Similarly, I want to maximize my potential as an individual, to be generally happier, so I pay attention to what's happening both externally and internally. I find there's a delicate balance between 'creating' and 'acceptance', and sometimes being overly focused on the 'creative' aspect does compromise the 'acceptance' factor, and there are times I have to find the balance again. |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 28, 2022 16:44:54 GMT -5
In my view, people aren't here to accept and experience, but to deal with whatever their egos encounter, with the purpose of the whole-self's evolvement. We aren't here to suffer, but to find ways to alleviate our (individual) suffering. And the purpose is in becoming able to alleviate suffering (evolving, acquiring a capability), not in just not-suffering. I think that some attempts at mitigating the contradictions between one's stated beliefs and his actual actions are just intellectual acrobatics (without net). I see 'acceptance' as important to the alleviation of suffering, but it's a confusing word, and I liked the way that Shadowplay and ZD clarified it. Let me see if I can add 2 cents....okay.... One of the ways that humans create extra layers of suffering for themselves is through strongly judging the array of internal states and feelings. For example, someone may experience a sense of unhappiness and then be unhappy about the fact that they are unhappy! Animals don't do that. Whatever an animal experiences internally in any given moment is 'it'. They do still respond to their internal states and feelings, but they don't judge them and deepen the suffering. I would say that a vast amount of anxiety, stress, desperation and misery is a result of that 'second layer' of judgement. In fact, there can be many layers...some folks create layer upon layer of that crap. So that to extent, 'acceptance' is about that first layer. The immediate 'what is'. But, a bit like like you, my spiritual journey isn't just about acceptance. I'm also inclined to creativity. So while I believe that acceptance is important, I will also look at how I am creating that 'first layer'. I think it's reasonable to say that some dogs are generally happier than other dogs (that's why we seek to give them a good home). Similarly, I want to maximize my potential as an individual, to be generally happier, so I pay attention to what's happening both externally and internally. I find there's a delicate balance between 'creating' and 'acceptance', and sometimes being overly focused on the 'creative' aspect does compromise the 'acceptance' factor, and there are times I have to find the balance again. Somehow your post reminded me of a psychic experience I had a little over 3 year ago, and which had a significant impact on me at the time. I thought it so important that I published it in the Lucid Dreaming Magazine of December 2019. - Life is a lab - Eating from the Tree of Knowledge was a Dangerous Thing
Inavalan
- went to bed with the intention to have a lucid dream or obe
- toward the morning, quick induction
- in front of a door on which is written "OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE", opened the door, 1 2 3 entered
- at first couldn't see anything, darkish
- watched my feet, barefoot, covered with an animal fur, I am a primitive man, bearded, overgrown and a little messy, light color skin
- walking through a primitive village, with primitive shelters, small, made of stone, wood, mud, openings for door and window
- other primitive people walking around
- feeling peaceful, no fear, no special thoughts, just living and doing whatever needed to do at the moment
- entered into my shelter, there there was my wife / woman and a couple of small children playing on the ground
- brought home a bunch of tree branches for the fire
- woman was cooking / boiling something
- ate, had sex, went to sleep
- asked my subconscious to estimate when was this: ~9,800 BC
- where was this: Europe, France
- my name: Ahn
- attitude of no expectations, to not influence the experience
- Ahn remained conscious, and projected into what I immediately thought to be the realm where he came from, where he'll return, and where part of him is always there.
- I realized that every time Ahn was going to sleep he projected on that realm, was waking up there, was becoming conscious there
- it seemed that there was no other dreaming involved, not the way we dream now
- just a life awake on Earth, then when sleeping being awake in the other realm
- there were other people around, that seemed familiar
- I asked to meet my council keeping an attitude of no expectations (I forced it here a little, aware that it might affect my experience, but I wanted to see what happens; until today I didn't meet / interacted with anybody, except a couple of times when I asked for my father, and he appeared)
- a council of 7 people, androgynous, didn't see them well, because it was misty
- asked then what's happening: life on Earth is a lab for the school we attend in the other realm
- we are based in the other realm, and project on Earth, that is a lab where we practice things we study in school
- what do we have to do on Earth: to develop, firstly instincts, then emotions, then intellect, and intuition (what I was already believing we do)
- we are essences of consciousness, born / created with no such abilities, and have to develop them; that's why we attend school, and project on Earth to practice what we learned, like having a lab
- this was the original way things were supposed to work, divide our time between being conscious awake on Earth, and projecting conscious back on the base realm while sleeping
- in time, humans changed, started to develop intelligence, and this being still rudimentary distorted the meaning of what's happening, changed their focus more toward the everyday challenges of the life on Earth; so they mostly lost the capability to consciously project back to the base realm, every time they sleep
- note: as they say ... a little knowledge is a dangerous thing; maybe this is the origin of the Adam & Eve story about eating from the tree of knowledge and consequently falling of Heaven ...?
- realization that this is what we are supposed to do at night: consciously project back to the realm we're actually based on
- while awake on Earth should concentrate on the development of our intellect and intuition, and learn to control our emotions and instincts, especially fear and its derivatives, like anger, etc..
- this was a remarkable experience; I felt that while having it, and when I woke up too.
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Post by andrew on Nov 28, 2022 16:55:30 GMT -5
I see 'acceptance' as important to the alleviation of suffering, but it's a confusing word, and I liked the way that Shadowplay and ZD clarified it. Let me see if I can add 2 cents....okay.... One of the ways that humans create extra layers of suffering for themselves is through strongly judging the array of internal states and feelings. For example, someone may experience a sense of unhappiness and then be unhappy about the fact that they are unhappy! Animals don't do that. Whatever an animal experiences internally in any given moment is 'it'. They do still respond to their internal states and feelings, but they don't judge them and deepen the suffering. I would say that a vast amount of anxiety, stress, desperation and misery is a result of that 'second layer' of judgement. In fact, there can be many layers...some folks create layer upon layer of that crap. So that to extent, 'acceptance' is about that first layer. The immediate 'what is'. But, a bit like like you, my spiritual journey isn't just about acceptance. I'm also inclined to creativity. So while I believe that acceptance is important, I will also look at how I am creating that 'first layer'. I think it's reasonable to say that some dogs are generally happier than other dogs (that's why we seek to give them a good home). Similarly, I want to maximize my potential as an individual, to be generally happier, so I pay attention to what's happening both externally and internally. I find there's a delicate balance between 'creating' and 'acceptance', and sometimes being overly focused on the 'creative' aspect does compromise the 'acceptance' factor, and there are times I have to find the balance again. Somehow your post reminded me of a psychic experience I had a little over 3 year ago, and which had a significant impact on me at the time. I thought it so important that I published it in the Lucid Dreaming Magazine of December 2019. - Life is a lab - Eating from the Tree of Knowledge was a Dangerous Thing
Inavalan
- went to bed with the intention to have a lucid dream or obe
- toward the morning, quick induction
- in front of a door on which is written "OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE", opened the door, 1 2 3 entered
- at first couldn't see anything, darkish
- watched my feet, barefoot, covered with an animal fur, I am a primitive man, bearded, overgrown and a little messy, light color skin
- walking through a primitive village, with primitive shelters, small, made of stone, wood, mud, openings for door and window
- other primitive people walking around
- feeling peaceful, no fear, no special thoughts, just living and doing whatever needed to do at the moment
- entered into my shelter, there there was my wife / woman and a couple of small children playing on the ground
- brought home a bunch of tree branches for the fire
- woman was cooking / boiling something
- ate, had sex, went to sleep
- asked my subconscious to estimate when was this: ~9,800 BC
- where was this: Europe, France
- my name: Ahn
- attitude of no expectations, to not influence the experience
- Ahn remained conscious, and projected into what I immediately thought to be the realm where he came from, where he'll return, and where part of him is always there.
- I realized that every time Ahn was going to sleep he projected on that realm, was waking up there, was becoming conscious there
- it seemed that there was no other dreaming involved, not the way we dream now
- just a life awake on Earth, then when sleeping being awake in the other realm
- there were other people around, that seemed familiar
- I asked to meet my council keeping an attitude of no expectations (I forced it here a little, aware that it might affect my experience, but I wanted to see what happens; until today I didn't meet / interacted with anybody, except a couple of times when I asked for my father, and he appeared)
- a council of 7 people, androgynous, didn't see them well, because it was misty
- asked then what's happening: life on Earth is a lab for the school we attend in the other realm
- we are based in the other realm, and project on Earth, that is a lab where we practice things we study in school
- what do we have to do on Earth: to develop, firstly instincts, then emotions, then intellect, and intuition (what I was already believing we do)
- we are essences of consciousness, born / created with no such abilities, and have to develop them; that's why we attend school, and project on Earth to practice what we learned, like having a lab
- this was the original way things were supposed to work, divide our time between being conscious awake on Earth, and projecting conscious back on the base realm while sleeping
- in time, humans changed, started to develop intelligence, and this being still rudimentary distorted the meaning of what's happening, changed their focus more toward the everyday challenges of the life on Earth; so they mostly lost the capability to consciously project back to the base realm, every time they sleep
- note: as they say ... a little knowledge is a dangerous thing; maybe this is the origin of the Adam & Eve story about eating from the tree of knowledge and consequently falling of Heaven ...?
- realization that this is what we are supposed to do at night: consciously project back to the realm we're actually based on
- while awake on Earth should concentrate on the development of our intellect and intuition, and learn to control our emotions and instincts, especially fear and its derivatives, like anger, etc..
- this was a remarkable experience; I felt that while having it, and when I woke up too.
I found that very interesting indeed, in fact I read it twice. There's are themes in there that I find very compelling, it loosely fits with some of what I understand about the tree of knowledge and fall of Heaven. I've never experienced anything like this...I've never had a lucid dream I don't think, and so there's a quality of your experience that sort of puzzles me, but as said, I can still relate to the overall themes. |
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Post by sree on Nov 28, 2022 18:13:26 GMT -5
Who are you railing at, zazeniac? You talking to me?
Accepting what is doesn't mean stifling all impulses to respond to things at hand. "WHAT IS" means one's situation in life. Someone drowning is not quite the same as mankind drowning.
Foolish folk for the first question. Does the shoe fit for the second? I can only do one drowning hooooman at a time. I'll let you tough guys do the heavy lifting of mankind saving. Too much for me. Plus, I'm old. Don't you ever take a break? I need a break. The nonsenseometer is off the scale in some of these discussions. Turned my phone off for a few days last time. I think I like that. You should try it. Take a break from what? Did Jesus take a break? You seem to view saving mankind as a pastime, a hobby, a vocation of sorts even.
Spirituality, to worshipers of truth, is not the same for embodiment of truth itself.
You take a break. Take care of your dogs. It's ok. They need saving too.
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 2:13:48 GMT -5
I was only invited to prayers in Pusan by the Imam, I think. He did not perform the prayers that were conducted by a brown-skinned Malaysian from Kelatan. In Kuala Lumpur, I could only walk around the mosque grounds outside the prayer hall where tourists were milling about. I did live among Muslims in Malaysia and Indonesia and discussed Islam with them. I still remember sitting in a circle in a room with them. It's no different from chatting with you guys here in the forum except that there was no sniping and throwing insults at each other. It was a very cordial almost conspiratorial affair, the kind of scene we see in western movies about Muslims planning an attack on something.
okey dokey then, no big deal but you were apparently playing coy here: I have no knowledge of the tenets of Islam. Perhaps, a Muslim or a knowledgeable member can say something about this. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 2:17:44 GMT -5
One of the most transparent sort of media psyops is false guilt by association. Just because it's true that most anti-immigrants are MAGA doesn't mean that every MAGA hates all immigrants, and just because likely every drag queen giving a story hour to pre-teens has progressive politics means that all child-trafficker's are Democrats. It's actually pretty interesting to apply this to false flags, and how today's false flag can lead to tomorrow's unconscious extremism. But none of this is all that spiritual. Not directly anyway, only tangentially as it relates to human nature and mind. I think that the spiritual aspect here is that many people who claim spiritual interest don't behave in agreement with the spiritual beliefs that they believe they embrace. In my opinion, this is more detrimental to them than being unsure. You may have experienced dreams in which at some point you wondered if you were dreaming, or hoped to be dreaming. You tested some action that is impossible when you're awake (flying, go through solid objects, ...), and guess what: it didn't work because you didn't believe you were dreaming. You woke up later realizing the you were dreaming after all. Beliefs filter our perceptions. Never had that exact experience of dreaming but your point is well made as to what it illustrates, and I agree that some spiritual people don't live according to their beliefs. There is another dialog possible, however. One in which beliefs play no part. That is where a particular brand of spirituality begins. One that requires the utmost self-sincerity. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 2:21:28 GMT -5
Male lions just cut to the chase and snap the necks of the other guys cubs.  Is there any truth to this story? Well, I've never seen it happen so for me it's just an arcane rumor to fuel some banter. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 2:28:37 GMT -5
Well, you see, what farmer wrote about not wanting anything to be other than what it is doesn't preclude one from working so that it doesn't necessarily have to stay that way. It's a subjective commentary. A description of non-reactivity to appearances that doesn't suggest inaction. And yes. This makes no logical sense. It makes sense even though it isn't logical. uncommon sense, perhaps? ... (nah, sounds to "special"  ) .. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 2:54:51 GMT -5
Let's give sree the benefit of the doubt here on the trolling. His negative perception of Tolle's wealth is a common one among people with spiritual interests, and if sree sincerely believes that the world could and should be a better place (which I have a suspicion that he does), then I can imagine how he might see ET's perspective to be one that would encourage a dangerous complacency. My father is an American venture capitalist and my hero who dispensed his money on me with largesse. The impulse to make money is never a bad thing. The predator and the prey is a natural setup. The rat has to watch its step. It's never the cat's fault.
I don't subscribe to our hypocritical do-good morality. I was pointing to Tolle's spirituality compared to Krishnamurti's spirituality. Tolle is speaking to idiots, and so was Krishnamurti. In the kind of world the SVP has created, money is as vital to the well-being of the body as air. Tolle has to make a living to take care of his body. I have said before that I live better than Krishnamurti whose circumstance was nothing to sneeze at. Mary Zimbalist was his caretaker and lived with him. She was a millionaire.
The manner in which Krishnamurti came into a life of wealth was not through acquisition of wealth in a capitalist marketplace. I don't think he cared about money. Money came to him in a manner that I found amazing. It's one of those things that drew me to spiritual inquiry. I believe that humanity has the same birthright of abundance that is blocked by the SVP. ah, now I see, yes, that clarifies what you were complaining about, and I did misunderstand. Whelps, I can get on board with your perception that I was an idiot when I stumbled onto Tolle's book. Perhaps that guy (past version of me) deserves the insult. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 3:08:49 GMT -5
Yeah. Accepting WHAT IS means that if I saw someone drowning I'd just accept it and keep walking. What nonsense! Some of you need to start taking your meds again. Nah, it would mean accepting having to strip down to your underwear in public or getting your clothes all wet. Get it? |
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 3:11:06 GMT -5
Yeah. Accepting WHAT IS means that if I saw someone drowning I'd just accept it and keep walking. What nonsense! Some of you need to start taking your meds again. The pointer to just accept WHAT IS can be nebulous and misleading. Which part of your experience are you meant to accept. If someone walked into your room and started removing your computer would you accept that? Of course not - there would be an impulse to prevent them. Should you accept that impulse? But isn't that impulse born out of a wish for things to be different therefore not accepting the present situation? These sort of questions highlight the limitation and murky nature of the pointer. The pointer is (innocently enough) born out of the realisation that all there IS is THIS - however THIS manifests. In the seeing of this there is, by default, the acknowledgement/acceptance that whatever happens - and whatever response that elicits - it is ALREADY the expression of a deeper principle at work. It is the recognition of the deeper principle that is key here. Seems to me that this is precisely the point that the Bhagavad Gita and Hamlet are both trying to get across. Billy Shakes wrote his version with a bit more empathy for the dilemma of the people peep. |
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.. so I'd say that Tolle doesn't entirely discount the notion that there are nefarious top-down agenda's, but rather, he puts them into an existential context.
) ..