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Post by sree on Nov 20, 2022 12:50:45 GMT -5
Two points: 1) I haven't heard anyone offer any definition or description of NS other than "pure awareness without perception, without content, without thought, and without any sense of selfhood." This is why Zen people refer to NS as "the falling off of body and mind." It is a state of deep bliss, but nothing is seen, heard, felt, or sensed in any way. All there is is awareness being aware of awareness. Every sage who has spoken about NS has claimed that it is the deepest state. 2) The reason that no one attempts to counter your definition of "thought" is because most people define thought much more narrowly than you do--as mind talk. Your definition-- that direct sensory perception is also a form of thought-- ends the conversation because most of us do not define thought in that manner. After I realized that your view is that seeing, hearing, or feeling is equivalent to thinking, I no longer challenged your statements because I finally understood your POV and knew that you do not make the same distinctions that most of us make regarding what we call "thought." I had my own understanding of such and concluded what I did regarding mind and no mind, thought and no thought .. I remember looking up several teachers speaking about darkness and some referring to light that was observed .. None of it rang true to me in regards to what happened to me . I have said it before, peeps need to let go of their dictionary definition of thought and broaden their horizons a bit . If NS reflects no thought, then everything of the mindful experience that is self related is of it . I see it as that straightforward . I don't know what the fuss is about . There is either mindful thought or there isn't . Being self aware of the world isn't absent of thought . Peeps seem to think as said before, that they can be aware of washing the dishes absent of mindful thought . Could you speak again about your realization, or direct me to your post about it? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 20, 2022 13:21:43 GMT -5
ZD is aware of how you define thought. Not a problem as long as we understand each other. But it seems you cannot do the same, your last sentence. What people mean by "absent of mindful thought", is no internal dialogue, they don't mean no brain processing. I will give an example. OK, I am washing my dishes. *In-my-head*, thinking, this is really annoying...trying to make tenka understand. (This ________ will indicate no internal dialogue, just observing my hands, washing dishes, or maybe the tension needed not to drop the soapy dish). But of course we can't wash dishes without brain processing, we couldn't feel the plate, we couldn't sense the rag (sense is a better word than feel, as feel can also indicate emotions). _______________can't wait until tomorrow, 11:00 AM ___________________I think I will stay up and watch Astrid again at 3 AM______________________looks like the Canes might have it tonight_____________sh*t____________good walk today____________it's getting cold, the heat should__________ But a silent mind-no-internal-talk-no dialogue, is quite sweet___________________________________________________ I must of explained myself a thousand times about the nature of mind and self awareness of the world . I have spoken about not being able to prise apart awareness of self and a thought of oneself . If you are aware of the dishes and the world in reflection of self then this is based upon mindfulness. Mindfulness is thought based . This is why I have explained myself in relation to the nature of thought. Thinking or not thinking about the annoyance of dish washing is mindful, hence thoughtful . I get it that some folks want to entertain the definition of thought in a way where it just reflects the chitter chatter, but it's not my definition. You need to broaden your horizons like said, because no matter how many times I ask folk to try and prise apart awareness of oneself and a thought of oneself one cannot . This should be enough said to clarify where I am coming from, but for some reason it doesn't make any difference to folk that want to stick by the narrow minded definition . We understand you. A word is just a word. Take the color green. The word green is completely arbitrary. Grass is green, the sky is blue. But if we called grass blue, that wouldn't change the grass at all. See? If we called the sky green, that has absolutely zero to do with the actuality of what the sky, is, the actual color/vibratory frequency of the photons of the sky. Understand? All that is necessary is to agree on definitions of words. The words themselves mean absolutely nothing. The words *think*, or *thinking* mean absolutely nothing in and of themselves. You don't seen to understand this. We use the word thinking mostly for verbal abstractions in the head, mind talk, the internal dialogue, roof brain chatter. We use different words for brain processing that doesn't involve verbal abstractions of the small s self, words like unconscious brain processing, or cognition. Thinking-inside-the-head-verbal abstraction-by-the-small-s-self is maybe 1% of all brain processing. The other 99% of what the brain does is underneath the awareness of the small s self, that is, unconscious to the small s self. So we find it helpful to make that distinction. tenka doesn't. Without that distinction I don't know what tenka is saying, really, truly. So sdp gave up dialogue with tenka. sree just asked a very good question. I'm very interested in the answer. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 20, 2022 13:42:22 GMT -5
My post was getting cluttered, so I'll ask here. Does tenka ever experience no internal dialogue in the head? Does tenka ever experience a silent mind?
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Post by laughter on Nov 20, 2022 14:05:46 GMT -5
A bit of a different topic, but have you ever tried going into the deep silence as a way to creativity? You mentioned getting answers to existential questions, and that to me would be a form of a creativity. But I'm thinking more about things like engineering or math problems, stories for a novel, ideas for a painting (or in your case maybe a house design?) – things like that. ? This is one thing that interests me about silence – this idea of kind of "mining" it, going in and out of it to find higher quality or interesting "mind" stuff. Emptiness for eons dude  |
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Post by tenka on Nov 20, 2022 14:41:04 GMT -5
I must of explained myself a thousand times about the nature of mind and self awareness of the world . I have spoken about not being able to prise apart awareness of self and a thought of oneself .[...] That sounds like Ramana's self enquiry. I don't have the book in front of me, but from what I remember, the basic idea was to meditate on the sense of "I", which he said would gradually cause the "false I" or "I-thought" to subside, and real "I", (aka Self, or Awareness) to be revealed. I've heard it said that the I-thought blocks the Self, like a "penny blocks out the Sun". PS: I somehow got through decades of life without noticing the word "prise". I've used "pry", but not "prise". PPS: What is this madness of putting a space before your periods? I will have to take your word for it regarding Ramana's self enquiry method of practice .. and perhaps 'prise' is the word of the day Anything mindful or thoughtful reflects self of the mind, so in a way using your term of that blocking the Self can be so from that perspective. It was like saying to Sree the other day about there is either self awareness of the mind or not, for one cannot at will transcend the mind . The thing is you can't have both, you can't have self awareness and transcend the mind, you can't have the I thought and realise the Self. |
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Post by tenka on Nov 20, 2022 14:44:45 GMT -5
My post was getting cluttered, so I'll ask here. Does tenka ever experience no internal dialogue in the head? Does tenka ever experience a silent mind? Sure, it's an everyday occurrence of many I dare say . One can entertain a manner of all things during the day and have no mental chit chat going on . It isn't a rariety . I enter a state similar to meditation doing my running for example or doing my drawing .. It doesn't reflect an absence of though tho . This is my point in making . Thought doesn't just equate to chit chat in my experience, that's just one expression of it . |
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Post by tenka on Nov 20, 2022 14:47:14 GMT -5
When I spoke of my realisation many were giving their advice to what it was that happened to me . I had my own understanding of such and concluded what I did regarding mind and no mind, thought and no thought .. I remember looking up several teachers speaking about darkness and some referring to light that was observed .. None of it rang true to me in regards to what happened to me . I have said it before, peeps need to let go of their dictionary definition of thought and broaden their horizons a bit . If NS reflects no thought, then everything of the mindful experience that is self related is of it . I see it as that straightforward . I don't know what the fuss is about . There is either mindful thought or there isn't . Being self aware of the world isn't absent of thought . Peeps seem to think as said before, that they can be aware of washing the dishes absent of mindful thought . Could you speak again about your realization, or direct me to your post about it? I don't have the time to go through it again. I have explained my self in detail a few times . I know you are a relative newbie here, but maybe next week when I have more time . For the record, everything I say about the self, the mind, the Self, stems from what I have realised . I don't talk in absolute Truths as you know . |
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Post by tenka on Nov 20, 2022 14:50:47 GMT -5
I must of explained myself a thousand times about the nature of mind and self awareness of the world . I have spoken about not being able to prise apart awareness of self and a thought of oneself . If you are aware of the dishes and the world in reflection of self then this is based upon mindfulness. Mindfulness is thought based . This is why I have explained myself in relation to the nature of thought. Thinking or not thinking about the annoyance of dish washing is mindful, hence thoughtful . I get it that some folks want to entertain the definition of thought in a way where it just reflects the chitter chatter, but it's not my definition. You need to broaden your horizons like said, because no matter how many times I ask folk to try and prise apart awareness of oneself and a thought of oneself one cannot . This should be enough said to clarify where I am coming from, but for some reason it doesn't make any difference to folk that want to stick by the narrow minded definition . We understand you. A word is just a word. Take the color green. The word green is completely arbitrary. Grass is green, the sky is blue. But if we called grass blue, that wouldn't change the grass at all. See? If we called the sky green, that has absolutely zero to do with the actuality of what the sky, is, the actual color/vibratory frequency of the photons of the sky. Understand? All that is necessary is to agree on definitions of words. The words themselves mean absolutely nothing. The words *think*, or *thinking* mean absolutely nothing in and of themselves. You don't seen to understand this. We use the word thinking mostly for verbal abstractions in the head, mind talk, the internal dialogue, roof brain chatter. We use different words for brain processing that doesn't involve verbal abstractions of the small s self, words like unconscious brain processing, or cognition. Thinking-inside-the-head-verbal abstraction-by-the-small-s-self is maybe 1% of all brain processing. The other 99% of what the brain does is underneath the awareness of the small s self, that is, unconscious to the small s self. So we find it helpful to make that distinction. tenka doesn't. Without that distinction I don't know what tenka is saying, really, truly. So sdp gave up dialogue with tenka. sree just asked a very good question. I'm very interested in the answer. I do understand your definition of thought. It's not my definition and understanding of it . I have explained my self in depth about it . It doesn't seem to make any difference like said . Just try and prise apart self awareness and a thought of that whilst experiencing the world . You can't . The reason why you can't is because whilst there is self awareness of the mind and of the world, there is a thought of that . Forget about the chitter chatter about how blue the sky is or how green the grass is, it doesn't negate the thought of what is perceived . |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 20, 2022 17:04:21 GMT -5
Two points: 1) I haven't heard anyone offer any definition or description of NS other than "pure awareness without perception, without content, without thought, and without any sense of selfhood." This is why Zen people refer to NS as "the falling off of body and mind." It is a state of deep bliss, but nothing is seen, heard, felt, or sensed in any way. All there is is awareness being aware of awareness. Every sage who has spoken about NS has claimed that it is the deepest state. 2) The reason that no one attempts to counter your definition of "thought" is because most people define thought much more narrowly than you do--as mind talk. Your definition-- that direct sensory perception is also a form of thought-- ends the conversation because most of us do not define thought in that manner. After I realized that your view is that seeing, hearing, or feeling is equivalent to thinking, I no longer challenged your statements because I finally understood your POV and knew that you do not make the same distinctions that most of us make regarding what we call "thought." A bit of a different topic, but have you ever tried going into the deep silence as a way to creativity? You mentioned getting answers to existential questions, and that to me would be a form of a creativity. But I'm thinking more about things like engineering or math problems, stories for a novel, ideas for a painting (or in your case maybe a house design?) – things like that. ? This is one thing that interests me about silence – this idea of kind of "mining" it, going in and out of it to find higher quality or interesting "mind" stuff. Yes, going into deep silence is a way of accessing a deeper level of intelligence than the intellect. This is why Einstein said, "I think 99 times and find nothing; I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me." Zen koans are resolved/answered in the same way. One states the koan, thinks about the koan, and then shifts attention completely away from thoughts (becomes internally silent) until the answer suddenly appears. After a question has been stated and mulled over, it becomes internalized in the subconscious, so that it's not necessary to think about it any longer. One simply becomes silent until the subconscious reveals the answer. This kind of process involves what some of us call "subconscious mental functioning." Any existential question can resolved in this manner. After deep experiences of unity, such as a CC, creativity goes off the scale. After a CC in 1984, I started to work on an architectural design on my drafting board, and I was astonished that dozens of new possibilities became obvious that in the past were never there. It was almost as if some unknown circuit of mind became activated that had access to some unseen super computer. I had always been creative, but this was an entirely different level of creativity--beyond anything I had ever before experienced. Many people have reported this same phenomenon. The intelligence of THIS is a trillion times greater than that of the intellect, and the words of Seng Stan come to mind in this regard: "Stop talking and thinking and there is nothing you will not be able to know." He was pointing to the power of becoming silent as a way of accessing the intelligence of THIS. |
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Post by sree on Nov 20, 2022 17:22:35 GMT -5
I must of explained myself a thousand times about the nature of mind and self awareness of the world . I have spoken about not being able to prise apart awareness of self and a thought of oneself . If you are aware of the dishes and the world in reflection of self then this is based upon mindfulness. Mindfulness is thought based . This is why I have explained myself in relation to the nature of thought. Thinking or not thinking about the annoyance of dish washing is mindful, hence thoughtful . I get it that some folks want to entertain the definition of thought in a way where it just reflects the chitter chatter, but it's not my definition. You need to broaden your horizons like said, because no matter how many times I ask folk to try and prise apart awareness of oneself and a thought of oneself one cannot . This should be enough said to clarify where I am coming from, but for some reason it doesn't make any difference to folk that want to stick by the narrow minded definition . We understand you. A word is just a word. Take the color green. The word green is completely arbitrary. Grass is green, the sky is blue. But if we called grass blue, that wouldn't change the grass at all. See? If we called the sky green, that has absolutely zero to do with the actuality of what the sky, is, the actual color/vibratory frequency of the photons of the sky. Understand? All that is necessary is to agree on definitions of words. The words themselves mean absolutely nothing. The words *think*, or *thinking* mean absolutely nothing in and of themselves. You don't seen to understand this. We use the word thinking mostly for verbal abstractions in the head, mind talk, the internal dialogue, roof brain chatter. We use different words for brain processing that doesn't involve verbal abstractions of the small s self, words like unconscious brain processing, or cognition. Thinking-inside-the-head-verbal abstraction-by-the-small-s-self is maybe 1% of all brain processing. The other 99% of what the brain does is underneath the awareness of the small s self, that is, unconscious to the small s self. So we find it helpful to make that distinction. tenka doesn't. Without that distinction I don't know what tenka is saying, really, truly. So sdp gave up dialogue with tenka. sree just asked a very good question. I'm very interested in the answer. Tenka's answer to my question will enable us to see how he lines up his apples and oranges. Right now there are all kinds of fruits in the basket and the back and forth between you guys and tenka is silly.
You are an electrician. You know which is the hot wire and which is neutral and which is the grounding wire. I am the electricity with the power of 100,000 volts. I know you guys are screwed up but none of you are holding any wire and just speculating. I need to know which wire tenka is holding. If he is holding the wrong wire, he is going to get his ass cooked.
I am the newbie here but you are not and have been in the forum since forever. How come you don't know about his realization that has been explained by him multiple times?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 20, 2022 18:07:35 GMT -5
My post was getting cluttered, so I'll ask here. Does tenka ever experience no internal dialogue in the head? Does tenka ever experience a silent mind? Sure, it's an everyday occurrence of many I dare say . One can entertain a manner of all things during the day and have no mental chit chat going on . It isn't a rariety . I enter a state similar to meditation doing my running for example or doing my drawing .. It doesn't reflect an absence of though tho . This is my point in making . Thought doesn't just equate to chit chat in my experience, that's just one expression of it . OK, I guess we don't have a problem. |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 20, 2022 18:14:44 GMT -5
instincts >>> emotions >>> intellect >>> intuition Humans (on a curve, not all at the same level): - mostly mastered instincts
- dominated by emotions
- rudimentary intellect
- incipient intuition
 Although I don't fully agree with Itzhak Bentov, I recommend this video. @5:42: "I suggest that you find them in a mental hospital" |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 17, 2022 19:56:13 GMT -5
I was out a bunch watching the World Cup. Anybody know anything about sree? Did he give a reason for absence?
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Post by Reefs on Dec 19, 2022 5:40:11 GMT -5
I was out a bunch watching the World Cup. Anybody know anything about sree? Did he give a reason for absence? Sree is on vacation (1 month). |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2022 9:19:13 GMT -5
I was out a bunch watching the World Cup. Anybody know anything about sree? Did he give a reason for absence? Sree is on vacation (1 month). Tks |
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