|
Post by zazeniac on Jun 8, 2021 8:34:21 GMT -5
Though it is true that there is noone and nothing to be done, a good noogie will dispel someone of those silly notions.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 8, 2021 8:39:04 GMT -5
Though it is true that there is noone and nothing to be done, a good noogie will dispel someone of those silly notions.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Jun 8, 2021 9:08:22 GMT -5
Though it is true that there is noone and nothing to be done, a good noogie will dispel someone of those silly notions. But that's just not true. There is someone and there also is something to be done or else we wouldn't have all this talk here. It all does exist, it's just not real. Like the mirage, it does exist, you can observe it, you can use it as a reference point, you can talk about it, but you just can't get hold of it because it is not real. But it does exist nevertheless. Just not in the way you imagine. You can deny its existence all you want, but like the mirage, it doesn't just disappear just because you've seen/realized its true nature. The mirage keeps appearing. Deal with it.
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Jun 8, 2021 11:35:30 GMT -5
Though it is true that there is noone and nothing to be done, a good noogie will dispel someone of those silly notions. But that's just not true. There is someone and there also is something to be done or else we wouldn't have all this talk here. It all does exist, it's just not real. Like the mirage, it does exist, you can observe it, you can use it as a reference point, you can talk about it, but you just can't get hold of it because it is not real. But it does exist nevertheless. Just not in the way you imagine. You can deny its existence all you want, but like the mirage, it doesn't just disappear just because you've seen/realized its true nature. The mirage keeps appearing. Deal with it. I guess there's an important distinction to be made between noone and an imagined someone. I find that quite humorous. Noone is more in need of a good noogieing.
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jun 8, 2021 14:48:04 GMT -5
Though it is true that there is noone and nothing to be done, a good noogie will dispel someone of those silly notions. But that's just not true. There is someone and there also is something to be done or else we wouldn't have all this talk here. It all does exist, it's just not real. Like the mirage, it does exist, you can observe it, you can use it as a reference point, you can talk about it, but you just can't get hold of it because it is not real. But it does exist nevertheless. Just not in the way you imagine. You can deny its existence all you want, but like the mirage, it doesn't just disappear just because you've seen/realized its true nature. The mirage keeps appearing. Deal with it. Nicely put.
|
|
Xiao
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by Xiao on Jun 8, 2021 20:31:22 GMT -5
Though it is true that there is noone and nothing to be done, a good noogie will dispel someone of those silly notions. But that's just not true. There is someone and there also is something to be done or else we wouldn't have all this talk here. It all does exist, it's just not real. Like the mirage, it does exist, you can observe it, you can use it as a reference point, you can talk about it, but you just can't get hold of it because it is not real. But it does exist nevertheless. Just not in the way you imagine. You can deny its existence all you want, but like the mirage, it doesn't just disappear just because you've seen/realized its true nature. The mirage keeps appearing. Deal with it. An important point, and one thing I've always respected the Buddhist traditions for. Even though anatta (which to be fair is sometimes translated as not-self rather than no-self) is one of the philosophical lynch pins of Buddhism, you rarely find teachings that outright deny the path and the one to walk it. Much like the analogy of a chariot that, when taken apart, leaves no chariot "essence" to be found anywhere, we are similarly nothing and yet a wonderful reference point for this localized bit of appearance going on right now. Agree that the "world is an illusion" thing always meant "not what it seems" rather than "not existant in any way".
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Jun 9, 2021 5:18:33 GMT -5
But that's just not true. There is someone and there also is something to be done or else we wouldn't have all this talk here. It all does exist, it's just not real. Like the mirage, it does exist, you can observe it, you can use it as a reference point, you can talk about it, but you just can't get hold of it because it is not real. But it does exist nevertheless. Just not in the way you imagine. You can deny its existence all you want, but like the mirage, it doesn't just disappear just because you've seen/realized its true nature. The mirage keeps appearing. Deal with it. I guess there's an important distinction to be made between noone and an imagined someone. I find that quite humorous. Noone is more in need of a good noogieing. What I'm saying minus the flippant remark is that speculation about the nature of reality, whether it's real, existent, a dream is irrelevant to living. It doesn't matter because you never behave as if it is none other than real. You scream if you stub your toe. You love your children. You brush your teeth. You get on this web site and argue with others as if they were not imaginary. If you truly believed that they were imaginary, you'd be foolish to do so. So to me the distinction you make between imaginary versus non-existent is not meaningful. To me both positions, that there is an imagined world versus no world are irrelevant. People who behave as if the world is either imaginary or non-existent get locked away or noogied. You made this point earlier. What's important is how we interact with creation. Whether there's a gap between ourselves and the world. And not so much conceptually, but in how we deal with it, every day, every moment. Zd keeps mentioning "flow." Folks mention a child like attitude. It's true, as much as I dislike the analogy. There is a freshness and intimacy even in the most mundane of tasks. There is an indescribable beauty even in the of horrors. It is quite the opposite of denial or detachment. Though detachment can be a useful first step. But folks seem to get stuck there. As to we having these talks, for me, it's an interest in the personalities, an affection. There are very interesting characters in this story. Some of which, you've removed. For the sake of the greater good, you'd argue. I enjoyed them all. But anyways, I've said more than I wanted. I'll back off and let the speculation continue.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 9, 2021 5:30:15 GMT -5
But that's just not true. There is someone and there also is something to be done or else we wouldn't have all this talk here. It all does exist, it's just not real. Like the mirage, it does exist, you can observe it, you can use it as a reference point, you can talk about it, but you just can't get hold of it because it is not real. But it does exist nevertheless. Just not in the way you imagine. You can deny its existence all you want, but like the mirage, it doesn't just disappear just because you've seen/realized its true nature. The mirage keeps appearing. Deal with it. An important point, and one thing I've always respected the Buddhist traditions for. Even though anatta (which to be fair is sometimes translated as not-self rather than no-self) is one of the philosophical lynch pins of Buddhism, you rarely find teachings that outright deny the path and the one to walk it. Much like the analogy of a chariot that, when taken apart, leaves no chariot "essence" to be found anywhere, we are similarly nothing and yet a wonderful reference point for this localized bit of appearance going on right now. Agree that the "world is an illusion" thing always meant "not what it seems" rather than "not existant in any way". But by the very essential nature of duality any statement like this is only one side of a coin - even, ironically, this notion of two-sided coins. In this case, the other side of the coin is that anything that appears to you is ephemeral. Nothing that you sense, think feel or can ever know by any relative means is changeless. Stated another way - which is an apparently paradoxical statement to the root of the matter: the only constant, is change. Any notion of "reality" founded on the ephemeral, is like a sand castle. This is emptiness. Now, this is stated in conceptual terms, but anyone can verify what is being described for themselves, experientially. To their core. There is a thinglessness that we can point to with the notion of eternity, transcendent of time, transcendent of change, which brings the dialog right back, full circle, to the topics of silence, and stillness. Freedom from thought might refer to a rather superficial condition, or, it might refer to something deeper.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 9, 2021 5:31:39 GMT -5
I guess there's an important distinction to be made between noone and an imagined someone. I find that quite humorous. Noone is more in need of a good noogieing. What I'm saying minus the flippant remark is that speculation about the nature of reality, whether it's real, existent, a dream is irrelevant to living. It doesn't matter because you never behave as if it is none other than real. You scream if you stub your toe. You love your children. You brush your teeth. You get on this web site and argue with others as if they were not imaginary. If you truly believed that they were imaginary, you'd be foolish to do so. So to me the distinction you make between imaginary versus non-existent is not meaningful. To me both positions, that there is an imagined world versus no world are irrelevant. People who behave as if the world is either imaginary or non-existent get locked away or noogied. You made this point earlier. What's important is how we interact with creation. Whether there's a gap between ourselves and the world. And not so much conceptually, but in how we deal with it, every day, every moment. Zd keeps mentioning "flow." Folks mention a child like attitude. It's true, as much as I dislike the analogy. There is a freshness and intimacy even in the most mundane of tasks. There is an indescribable beauty even in the of horrors. It is quite the opposite of denial or detachment. Though detachment can be a useful first step. But folks seem to get stuck there. As to we having these talks, for me, it's an interest in the personalities, an affection. There are very interesting characters in this story. Some of which, you've removed. For the sake of the greater good, you'd argue. I enjoyed them all. But anyways, I've said more than I wanted. I'll back off and let the speculation continue. O.k. Caesar.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 9, 2021 6:12:48 GMT -5
I guess there's an important distinction to be made between noone and an imagined someone. I find that quite humorous. Noone is more in need of a good noogieing. What I'm saying minus the flippant remark is that speculation about the nature of reality, whether it's real, existent, a dream is irrelevant to living. It doesn't matter because you never behave as if it is none other than real. You scream if you stub your toe. You love your children. You brush your teeth. You get on this web site and argue with others as if they were not imaginary. If you truly believed that they were imaginary, you'd be foolish to do so. So to me the distinction you make between imaginary versus non-existent is not meaningful. To me both positions, that there is an imagined world versus no world are irrelevant. People who behave as if the world is either imaginary or non-existent get locked away or noogied. You made this point earlier. What's important is how we interact with creation. Whether there's a gap between ourselves and the world. And not so much conceptually, but in how we deal with it, every day, every moment. Yes, the distinction between imaginary versus non-existent is just a pointer for people who don't understand what's meant by the word "imaginary" or what's meant by the phrase "conceptual overlay." Many adults aren't even aware of what we call "mind talk" until it's pointed out, and most adults are not aware of how mind talk and the unconscious attachment to various ideas (the concensus paradigm) affects their perception of and understanding of the world. Mental silence seems to be highly correlated with existential realizations that free people from erroneous beliefs and realizations usually lead to increasing clarity, peace, contentment, understanding, flow, an end to the sense of separateness, etc. As you noted, the ultimate result of meditative/contemplative practices and the path of ND is the closing of the psychological gap between ourselves and the world until life becomes simple, straight-forward, and very much "down to earth." As ZM Seung Sahn used to say, "Put it all down (let go of--detach from--thoughts). Only go straight; don't know."
|
|
Xiao
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by Xiao on Jun 9, 2021 9:29:51 GMT -5
Too much of this heady sort of conversation is exactly what draws me to phrases like the one uttered by Tulku Urgyen where this thread gets its name. It's entertaining and interesting until its dizzying or a headache, and it's not surpising that putting it down altogether for at least lengths of time is correlated with realizations.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 9, 2021 10:40:58 GMT -5
Too much of this heady sort of conversation is exactly what draws me to phrases like the one uttered by Tulku Urgyen where this thread gets its name. It's entertaining and interesting until its dizzying or a headache, and it's not surpising that putting it down altogether for at least lengths of time is correlated with realizations. To echo - or you might even say parrot - what E' once said on this idea .. axshoelly, it's effortless.
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Jun 9, 2021 19:53:44 GMT -5
But that's just not true. There is someone and there also is something to be done or else we wouldn't have all this talk here. It all does exist, it's just not real. Like the mirage, it does exist, you can observe it, you can use it as a reference point, you can talk about it, but you just can't get hold of it because it is not real. But it does exist nevertheless. Just not in the way you imagine. You can deny its existence all you want, but like the mirage, it doesn't just disappear just because you've seen/realized its true nature. The mirage keeps appearing. Deal with it. An important point, and one thing I've always respected the Buddhist traditions for. Even though anatta (which to be fair is sometimes translated as not-self rather than no-self) is one of the philosophical lynch pins of Buddhism, you rarely find teachings that outright deny the path and the one to walk it. Much like the analogy of a chariot that, when taken apart, leaves no chariot "essence" to be found anywhere, we are similarly nothing and yet a wonderful reference point for this localized bit of appearance going on right now. Agree that the "world is an illusion" thing always meant "not what it seems" rather than "not existant in any way". I think anatta is literally translated as no self, but it takes on not-self or no-self depending on context. For example in regards to the skhandas there are aggregates of mind/matter which have no underelying entity, in which case anatta is used to mean no-self. In the same vein, any of said aggregates are regarded as not-self. Thus anatta has contextual connotations.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Jun 9, 2021 21:47:24 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Jun 10, 2021 5:17:47 GMT -5
I guess there's an important distinction to be made between noone and an imagined someone. I find that quite humorous. Noone is more in need of a good noogieing. What I'm saying minus the flippant remark is that speculation about the nature of reality, whether it's real, existent, a dream is irrelevant to living. It doesn't matter because you never behave as if it is none other than real. You scream if you stub your toe. You love your children. You brush your teeth. You get on this web site and argue with others as if they were not imaginary. If you truly believed that they were imaginary, you'd be foolish to do so. So to me the distinction you make between imaginary versus non-existent is not meaningful. To me both positions, that there is an imagined world versus no world are irrelevant. People who behave as if the world is either imaginary or non-existent get locked away or noogied. You made this point earlier. What's important is how we interact with creation. Whether there's a gap between ourselves and the world. And not so much conceptually, but in how we deal with it, every day, every moment. Zd keeps mentioning "flow." Folks mention a child like attitude. It's true, as much as I dislike the analogy. There is a freshness and intimacy even in the most mundane of tasks. There is an indescribable beauty even in the of horrors. It is quite the opposite of denial or detachment. Though detachment can be a useful first step. But folks seem to get stuck there. As to we having these talks, for me, it's an interest in the personalities, an affection. There are very interesting characters in this story. Some of which, you've removed. For the sake of the greater good, you'd argue. I enjoyed them all. But anyways, I've said more than I wanted. I'll back off and let the speculation continue. Yes, exactly. It's essentially the case against all kinds of extreme idealism, like solipsism and some (mis)interpretations of Buddhism. The distinction I am making is essentially between a mirage and a Tyler Durden. Some people want to give the body-mind (or SVP) a Tyler Durden status while I would give it a mirage status. Right. The point is that realization alone is not enough. It has to carry over into day to day real life experience, you need to feel it in your bones. When this doesn't happen, then you've got a case of 'mind-enlightenment' where the witness mode is still the personal perspective instead of the impersonal perspective. So it's an artificial witness mode, a split-mind. And a split-mind case is actually easy to spot in non-duality. It usually goes like this: People from time to time become aware of the fact that they are still very much stuck in minding. And when they realize this and how it throws them out of the NOW/alignment, instead of just stopping, they start explaining it away as "ah, it's all just mind/ego doing its thing again, nothing to see here" in order to get back into alignment and by doing that essentially just continue with more minding. Putting things into perspective may indeed result in a temporary feeling of relief, but if it's only skin deep, the next thing that catches their full attention again will let them forget their realization again and off they go again until they catch themselves again and tell themselves (again!) "ah, it's all just mind/ego doing its thing again, nothing to see here"... You won't hear that from someone who actually experiences peace of mind and lives in flow. They are either fully involved in what they are doing, i.e. one with what they are doing, so that even when their minds function at peak capacity it will be just flow of thinking. Or they are at rest and in a genuine witness mode. It's all the natural state. And they don't need to talk themselves into this state of being, because it's their natural state. And they usually don't vilify ego either, because to them it's an obvious nonissue. The truth they've realized is so utterly self-evident that it doesn't require regular mental reinforcement. That is true clarity and true ease of being. And if people would just understand that what they are looking for is actually something utterly familiar, something everyone already has a reference for, the young and naive factor, then, maybe, they might be less inclined to get into such artificial witness mode mind games.
|
|