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Post by amit on Sept 5, 2020 19:18:22 GMT -5
You are already aware of the earlier post about Niz advice to a seeker in depair to trust that he was already what was sought. That approach was fast through trust, practise slower. There is room for both depending on where seekers may be at. For me any difference in the quality of the experience of another cannot be known. Many I have spoken with in and around our group here, and at Tony's meetings describe that the search has ended through trust, including some who now give talks internationally. Is this Tony you reference Tony Parsons? Though I'm devoted to practice being one of the untrusting and my motto being" if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him," I find a certain appeal in Parsons. There's a playfulness that makes me wonder if he's not the real thing. I would definitely pay the admission charge if he ever showed up in my hinterland. I enjoy his talks on youtube. Yes. Before we moved to West Wales, my wife and I enjoyed a number of his meetings in London. Through a friend who helps at the meetings, who is devoted to him, we met with Tony, and other friends in a cafe across the road so had a chance to talk with him personally and liked him very much. We havent been since we moved as we live quite far away now. Hope practise works out for you. According to Niz, even if you despair with it, that may develop trust that works out instead.
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Sept 8, 2020 21:09:39 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Sept 8, 2020 21:09:39 GMT -5
For me the words speak for themselves. In terms of variation it is enough to acknowledge that one size does not fit all. Some are attracted to practise, others trust. One cannot experience the experience of another in order to decide about the quality of the experience, or to make comparisons. Are you maybe talking about resonance, about what words resonate with you in some deeper way?
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Sept 8, 2020 21:22:27 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Sept 8, 2020 21:22:27 GMT -5
That one is already what is sought. That's essentially trusting that the search will - somehow, eventually - come to an end, isn't it?
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Sept 8, 2020 21:52:31 GMT -5
Post by amit on Sept 8, 2020 21:52:31 GMT -5
For me the words speak for themselves. In terms of variation it is enough to acknowledge that one size does not fit all. Some the words speak for themselves are attracted to practise, others trust. One cannot experience the experience of another in order to decide about the quality of the experience, or to make comparisons. Are you maybe talking about resonance, about what words resonate with you in some deeper way? Yes. The frequency of the message conveyed by the words may resonate/vibrate/match with the frequency of the seeker. This is the sense in which it is meant that the words speak for themselves. The words may be something heard or read.
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Sept 8, 2020 22:02:47 GMT -5
Post by amit on Sept 8, 2020 22:02:47 GMT -5
That one is already what is sought. That's essentially trusting that the search will - somehow, eventually - come to an end, isn't it Trusting that one is already what is sought ends the search by rendering it pointless for one cannot become what one already is. This is so regardless of what state one may already be in for Brahman/Oneness is all states, including the state of not realizing any of this, OR trusting. Feeling disconnected from Oneness is not disconnected. Nothing whatsoever needs to change for connection to be always total, unconditional, and unavoidable.
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Sept 12, 2020 1:51:25 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2020 1:51:25 GMT -5
Yes. The frequency of the message conveyed by the words resonates/vibrates/matches with the frequency of the seeker. This is the sense in which it is meant that the words speak for themselves. The words may be something heard or read. Agreed. Trusting that one is already what is sought ends the search by rendering it pointless for one cannot become what one already is. This is so regardless of what state one may already be in for Brahman/Oneness is all states, including the state of not realizing any of this, OR trusting. Feeling disconnected from Oneness is not disconnected. Nothing whatsoever needs to change for connection to be always total. I think we can agree that the SVP has to be seen for what it is. Which will end the search. But from my perspective, this is having it backwards. What you are describing here is basically a reverse-engineering of a realization by means of logic. Which means this is still all happening in the SVP context. But you can't see thru the SVP from within the context of the SVP. That's the futility that has to be understood by the seeker, not the futility that you are what you seek and therefore the search is futile. As UG put it, the seeker has to realize that there is no way out for the seeker. The only way out is a realization. Which means to step out of the SVP context into that larger context that allows you to see clearly what is actually the case, which the seeker cannot do, of course, because the seeker's perspective is limited to the SVP context, both go hand in hand. Which means logical conclusions (SVP context) are not going to end the search (going prior SVP context). Also worth noting that, from the SVP perspective, trusting that one is already what is sought can't stand for itself because it only makes sense in the a Brahman/oneness theory. But you can't prove the existence of Brahman/oneness from your own SVP perspective, let alone to another SVP. Which means at the end of the day, it never leaves the realm of beliefs, no matter what the conclusion, no matter how sound the logic. At the end of the logical chain always stands some kind of core belief that remains untouched/unquestioned. So my essential point here is that the seeker (SVP) can never see/understand what it means that the seeker is the sought. The seeker can only imagine/speculate what that means. It takes a realization to understand, to see that directly. This is what breaks the viscous cycle of endless conceptualization and thereby ends the search, not flawless logic. So realization has to happen first, then we can try to explain/conceptualize it (pointer) in a way the SVP can understand (logic). And then we can say things like 'one is already what is sought', because then we have an actual reference for what that actually means. Without that actual reference, it's just another theory about reality, a concept easily replaceable by yet another even 'better' concept. But the core concept, the SVP, always remains untouched if logic and thinking is the method. Mind cannot take down the fortress of mind as we used to say here. That's the also the main flaw of all spiritual practice. When ego tries to do a harakiri, what you usually get is a spiritual ego instead. It just gets more subtle, but in essence, nothing changes.
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Sept 12, 2020 3:18:01 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Sept 12, 2020 3:18:01 GMT -5
Yes. The frequency of the message conveyed by the words resonates/vibrates/matches with the frequency of the seeker. This is the sense in which it is meant that the words speak for themselves. The words may be something heard or read. Agreed. Trusting that one is already what is sought ends the search by rendering it pointless for one cannot become what one already is. This is so regardless of what state one may already be in for Brahman/Oneness is all states, including the state of not realizing any of this, OR trusting. Feeling disconnected from Oneness is not disconnected. Nothing whatsoever needs to change for connection to be always total. I think we can agree that the SVP has to be seen for what it is. Which will end the search. But from my perspective, this is having it backwards. What you are describing here is basically a reverse-engineering of a realization by means of logic. Which means this is still all happening in the SVP context. But you can't see thru the SVP from within the context of the SVP. That's the futility that has to be understood by the seeker, not the futility that you are what you seek and therefore the search is futile. As UG put it, the seeker has to realize that there is no way out for the seeker. The only way out is a realization. Which means to step out of the SVP context into that larger context that allows you to see clearly what is actually the case, which the seeker cannot do, of course, because the seeker's perspective is limited to the SVP context, both go hand in hand. Which means logical conclusions (SVP context) are not going to end the search (going prior SVP context). Also worth noting that, from the SVP perspective, trusting that one is already what is sought can't stand for itself because it only makes sense in the a Brahman/oneness theory. But you can't prove the existence of Brahman/oneness from your own SVP perspective, let alone to another SVP. Which means at the end of the day, it never leaves the realm of beliefs, no matter what the conclusion, no matter how sound the logic. At the end of the logical chain always stands some kind of core belief that remains untouched/unquestioned. So my essential point here is that the seeker (SVP) can never see/understand what it means that the seeker is the sought. The seeker can only imagine/speculate what that means. It takes a realization to understand, to see that directly. This is what breaks the viscous cycle of endless conceptualization and thereby ends the search, not flawless logic. So realization has to happen first, then we can try to explain/conceptualize it (pointer) in a way the SVP can understand (logic). And then we can say things like 'one is already what is sought', because then we have an actual reference for what that actually means. Without that actual reference, it's just another theory about reality, a concept easily replaceable by yet another even 'better' concept. But the core concept, the SVP, always remains untouched if logic and thinking is the method. Mind cannot take down the fortress of mind as we used to say here. That's the also the main flaw of all spiritual practice. When ego tries to do a harakiri, what you usually get is a spiritual ego instead. It just gets more subtle, but in essence, nothing changes. That's certainly the way this character sees the issue. Batgap recently had an interview between Rick Archer and Terry Stephens. In the past Stephens had been a student of Sailor Bob (who had spent a year with Nisargadatta), and he left Bob when he thought he understood ND completely. He said, "I had a deep intellectual understanding to such a degree that there were no longer any questions. In essence he says, "I knew that Brahman is all there is." At that point he got on with his life." Twenty years later his life fell apart. His wife divorced him; his son and family disowned him; and he found himself utterly alone and in deep despair. He was such a miserable character that no one wanted to be around him. He had been a victim of child abuse and that trauma had never been resolved even though he had gone to counseling and done all kinds of other stuff to overcome it. He reached a point much like Tolle, and although he had no belief in an external interventionist God, he became so bereft of hope that he verbally said, "Either take me or save me, kill me or enlighten me, because I no longer care which you do." Amazingly, after speaking this prayer, his mind went totally silent, and it stayed totally silent for five entire months! He said that he did nothing other than sit in a chair on his porch and look at the sky. After five months, mind began to stir again, and he happened to look at a tree. It was as if he had never seen a tree before, and he marveled at what he was seeing. He looked around, and discovered that the whole world had changed and had come to life. He then got what he called "a download" from an intelligence beyond comprehension. Afterwards, the SVP had disappeared entirely, and only then did he realize that all of his prior understanding of ND had been completely intellectual. The interview is one of the more unusual interviews Rick has done because of the interaction between Rick and Terry. Rick tries to postulate all kinds of intellectual nonsense and Terry laughingly refutes it all. Terry tells Rick near the end of the interview about looking up the man who had abused him as a twelve-year old, and what happened during that confrontation, and that's a pretty amazing story as well. If nothing else, the interview reveals in startling clarity the difference between an intellectual understanding of ND and a direct realization of the truth.
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Sept 12, 2020 3:56:28 GMT -5
Post by amit on Sept 12, 2020 3:56:28 GMT -5
Yes. The frequency of the message conveyed by the words resonates/vibrates/matches with the frequency of the seeker. This is the sense in which it is meant that the words speak for themselves. The words may be something heard or read. Agreed. Trusting that one is already what is sought ends the search by rendering it pointless for one cannot become what one already is. This is so regardless of what state one may already be in for Brahman/Oneness is all states, including the state of not realizing any of this, OR trusting. Feeling disconnected from Oneness is not disconnected. Nothing whatsoever needs to change for connection to be always total. I think we can agree that the SVP has to be seen for what it is. Which will end the search. But from my perspective, this is having it backwards. What you are describing here is basically a reverse-engineering of a realization by means of logic. Which means this is still all happening in the SVP context. But you can't see thru the SVP from within the context of the SVP. That's the futility that has to be understood by the seeker, not the futility that you are what you seek and therefore the search is futile. As UG put it, the seeker has to realize that there is no way out for the seeker. The only way out is a realization. Which means to step out of the SVP context into that larger context that allows you to see clearly what is actually the case, which the seeker cannot do, of course, because the seeker's perspective is limited to the SVP context, both go hand in hand. Which means logical conclusions (SVP context) are not going to end the search (going prior SVP context). Also worth noting that, from the SVP perspective, trusting that one is already what is sought can't stand for itself because it only makes sense in the a Brahman/oneness theory. But you can't prove the existence of Brahman/oneness from your own SVP perspective, let alone to another SVP. Which means at the end of the day, it never leaves the realm of beliefs, no matter what the conclusion, no matter how sound the logic. At the end of the logical chain always stands some kind of core belief that remains untouched/unquestioned. So my essential point here is that the seeker (SVP) can never see/understand what it means that the seeker is the sought. The seeker can only imagine/speculate what that means. It takes a realization to understand, to see that directly. This is what breaks the viscous cycle of endless conceptualization and thereby ends the search, not flawless logic. So realization has to happen first, then we can try to explain/conceptualize it (pointer) in a way the SVP can understand (logic). And then we can say things like 'one is already what is sought', because then we have an actual reference for what that actually means. Without that actual reference, it's just another theory about reality, a concept easily replaceable by yet another even 'better' concept. But the core concept, the SVP, always remains untouched if logic and thinking is the method. Mind cannot take down the fortress of mind as we used to say here. That's the also the main flaw of all spiritual practice. When ego tries to do a harakiri, what you usually get is a spiritual ego instead. It just gets more subtle, but in essence, nothing changes. Nothing has to be done about the SVP. It is already Brahman and not seeing that is also Brahman. What is being suggested is much worse from your point of view, it is that it is the mind, which conducts the search, that has the capacity to resonate and that resonance by the mind ends the search. For reasons already mentioned, no comparison in terms of quality of experience can be known in order to compare that quality with those who are said to end the search by practise. So to limit the capacity of the mind could even be said to limit this helpful role. So when it is said that it is a problem that it may only be by the mind, that is no problem whatsoever because the mind is simply Brahman minding.
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Sept 12, 2020 3:59:21 GMT -5
Post by amit on Sept 12, 2020 3:59:21 GMT -5
Agreed. I think we can agree that the SVP has to be seen for what it is. Which will end the search. But from my perspective, this is having it backwards. What you are describing here is basically a reverse-engineering of a realization by means of logic. Which means this is still all happening in the SVP context. But you can't see thru the SVP from within the context of the SVP. That's the futility that has to be understood by the seeker, not the futility that you are what you seek and therefore the search is futile. As UG put it, the seeker has to realize that there is no way out for the seeker. The only way out is a realization. Which means to step out of the SVP context into that larger context that allows you to see clearly what is actually the case, which the seeker cannot do, of course, because the seeker's perspective is limited to the SVP context, both go hand in hand. Which means logical conclusions (SVP context) are not going to end the search (going prior SVP context). Also worth noting that, from the SVP perspective, trusting that one is already what is sought can't stand for itself because it only makes sense in the a Brahman/oneness theory. But you can't prove the existence of Brahman/oneness from your own SVP perspective, let alone to another SVP. Which means at the end of the day, it never leaves the realm of beliefs, no matter what the conclusion, no matter how sound the logic. At the end of the logical chain always stands some kind of core belief that remains untouched/unquestioned. So my essential point here is that the seeker (SVP) can never see/understand what it means that the seeker is the sought. The seeker can only imagine/speculate what that means. It takes a realization to understand, to see that directly. This is what breaks the viscous cycle of endless conceptualization and thereby ends the search, not flawless logic. So realization has to happen first, then we can try to explain/conceptualize it (pointer) in a way the SVP can understand (logic). And then we can say things like 'one is already what is sought', because then we have an actual reference for what that actually means. Without that actual reference, it's just another theory about reality, a concept easily replaceable by yet another even 'better' concept. But the core concept, the SVP, always remains untouched if logic and thinking is the method. Mind cannot take down the fortress of mind as we used to say here. That's the also the main flaw of all spiritual practice. When ego tries to do a harakiri, what you usually get is a spiritual ego instead. It just gets more subtle, but in essence, nothing changes. That's certainly the way this character sees the issue. Batgap recently had an interview between Rick Archer and Terry Stephens. In the past Stephens had been a student of Sailor Bob (who had spent a year with Nisargadatta), and he left Bob when he thought he understood ND completely. He said, "I had a deep intellectual understanding to such a degree that there were no longer any questions. In essence he says, "I knew that Brahman is all there is." At that point he got on with his life." Twenty years later his life fell apart. His wife divorced him; his son and family disowned him; and he found himself utterly alone and in deep despair. He was such a miserable character that no one wanted to be around him. He had been a victim of child abuse and that trauma had never been resolved even though he had gone to counseling and done all kinds of other stuff to overcome it. He reached a point much like Tolle, and although he had no belief in an external interventionist God, he became so bereft of hope that he verbally said, "Either take me or save me, kill me or enlighten me, because I no longer care which you do." Amazingly, after speaking this prayer, his mind went totally silent, and it stayed totally silent for five entire months! He said that he did nothing other than sit in a chair on his porch and look at the sky. After five months, mind began to stir again, and he happened to look at a tree. It was as if he had never seen a tree before, and he marveled at what he was seeing. He looked around, and discovered that the whole world had changed and had come to life. He then got what he called "a download" from an intelligence beyond comprehension. Afterwards, the SVP had disappeared entirely, and only then did he realize that all of his prior understanding of ND had been completely intellectual. The interview is one of the more unusual interviews Rick has done because of the interaction between Rick and Terry. Rick tries to postulate all kinds of intellectual nonsense and Terry laughingly refutes it all. Terry tells Rick near the end of the interview about looking up the man who had abused him as a twelve-year old, and what happened during that confrontation, and that's a pretty amazing story as well. If nothing else, the interview reveals in startling clarity the difference between an intellectual understanding of ND and a direct realization of the truth. Hi ZD. It is basically the same reply as given to Reefs, so repeated here. Nothing has to be done about the SVP. It is already Brahman and not seeing that is also Brahman. What is being suggested is much worse from your point of view, it is that it is the mind, which conducts the search, that has the capacity to resonate and that resonance by the mind ends the search. For reasons already mentioned, no comparison in terms of quality of experience can be known in order to compare that quality with those who are said to end the search by practise. So to limit the capacity of the mind could even be said to limit this helpful role. So when it is said that it is a problem that it may only be by the mind, that is no problem whatsoever because the mind is simply Brahman minding.
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Xiao
Full Member
Posts: 184
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Trust
Sept 12, 2020 5:20:03 GMT -5
Post by Xiao on Sept 12, 2020 5:20:03 GMT -5
That's certainly the way this character sees the issue. Batgap recently had an interview between Rick Archer and Terry Stephens. In the past Stephens had been a student of Sailor Bob (who had spent a year with Nisargadatta), and he left Bob when he thought he understood ND completely. He said, "I had a deep intellectual understanding to such a degree that there were no longer any questions. In essence he says, "I knew that Brahman is all there is." At that point he got on with his life." Twenty years later his life fell apart. His wife divorced him; his son and family disowned him; and he found himself utterly alone and in deep despair. He was such a miserable character that no one wanted to be around him. He had been a victim of child abuse and that trauma had never been resolved even though he had gone to counseling and done all kinds of other stuff to overcome it. He reached a point much like Tolle, and although he had no belief in an external interventionist God, he became so bereft of hope that he verbally said, "Either take me or save me, kill me or enlighten me, because I no longer care which you do." Amazingly, after speaking this prayer, his mind went totally silent, and it stayed totally silent for five entire months! He said that he did nothing other than sit in a chair on his porch and look at the sky. After five months, mind began to stir again, and he happened to look at a tree. It was as if he had never seen a tree before, and he marveled at what he was seeing. He looked around, and discovered that the whole world had changed and had come to life. He then got what he called "a download" from an intelligence beyond comprehension. Afterwards, the SVP had disappeared entirely, and only then did he realize that all of his prior understanding of ND had been completely intellectual. The interview is one of the more unusual interviews Rick has done because of the interaction between Rick and Terry. Rick tries to postulate all kinds of intellectual nonsense and Terry laughingly refutes it all. Terry tells Rick near the end of the interview about looking up the man who had abused him as a twelve-year old, and what happened during that confrontation, and that's a pretty amazing story as well. If nothing else, the interview reveals in startling clarity the difference between an intellectual understanding of ND and a direct realization of the truth. Hi ZD. It is basically the same reply as given to Reefs, so repeated here. Nothing has to be done about the SVP. It is already Brahman and not seeing that is also Brahman. What is being suggested is much worse from your point of view, it is that it is the mind, which conducts the search, that has the capacity to resonate and that resonance by the mind ends the search. For reasons already mentioned, no comparison in terms of quality of experience can be known in order to compare that quality with those who are said to end the search by practise. So to limit the capacity of the mind could even be said to limit this helpful role. So when it is said that it is a problem that it may only be by the mind, that is no problem whatsoever because the mind is simply Brahman minding. There's a lot of suffering in the world in terms of subjective mental experience, which I think is pretty much beyond doubt. Some people suffer. From an "absolute truth" angle it may be simply Brahman "minding", but that concept doesn't do much for that particular person's suffering. I will concede that "Nothing has to be done about the SVP", in the sense that the SVP (which is by definition within the realm of symbols/thought and unaware of its own unreality) doesn't exist in reality. Still, it feels to exist for many people, and brushing that suffering off as merely another modulation of Brahman does very little to end suffering. In my opinion, the thought free state has the potential to make all of this clear. The intellectual arrangement of nondual ideas doesn't. (Save perhaps a rare few.)
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Sept 12, 2020 6:28:12 GMT -5
Post by amit on Sept 12, 2020 6:28:12 GMT -5
Hi ZD. It is basically the same reply as given to Reefs, so repeated here. Nothing has to be done about the SVP. It is already Brahman and not seeing that is also Brahman. What is being suggested is much worse from your point of view, it is that it is the mind, which conducts the search, that has the capacity to resonate and that resonance by the mind ends the search. For reasons already mentioned, no comparison in terms of quality of experience can be known in order to compare that quality with those who are said to end the search by practise. So to limit the capacity of the mind could even be said to limit this helpful role. So when it is said that it is a problem that it may only be by the mind, that is no problem whatsoever because the mind is simply Brahman minding. There's a lot of suffering in the world in terms of subjective mental experience, which I think is pretty much beyond doubt. Some people suffer. From an "absolute truth" angle it may be simply Brahman "minding", but that concept doesn't do much for that particular person's suffering. I will concede that "Nothing has to be done about the SVP", in the sense that the SVP (which is by definition within the realm of symbols/thought and unaware of its own unreality) doesn't exist in reality. Still, it feels to exist for many people, and brushing that suffering off as merely another modulation of Brahman does very little to end suffering. In my opinion, the thought free state has the potential to make all of this clear. The intellectual arrangement of nondual ideas doesn't. (Save perhaps a rare few.) Its difficult and challlenging, that Brahman is both abuser and abused, and also all those who care for the suffering, and those who dont. This is no doubt a main reason why nonduality is unacceptable and rejected by some.
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Sept 12, 2020 7:03:26 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Sept 12, 2020 7:03:26 GMT -5
Hi ZD. It is basically the same reply as given to Reefs, so repeated here. Nothing has to be done about the SVP. It is already Brahman and not seeing that is also Brahman. What is being suggested is much worse from your point of view, it is that it is the mind, which conducts the search, that has the capacity to resonate and that resonance by the mind ends the search. For reasons already mentioned, no comparison in terms of quality of experience can be known in order to compare that quality with those who are said to end the search by practise. So to limit the capacity of the mind could even be said to limit this helpful role. So when it is said that it is a problem that it may only be by the mind, that is no problem whatsoever because the mind is simply Brahman minding. There's a lot of suffering in the world in terms of subjective mental experience, which I think is pretty much beyond doubt. Some people suffer. From an "absolute truth" angle it may be simply Brahman "minding", but that concept doesn't do much for that particular person's suffering. I will concede that "Nothing has to be done about the SVP", in the sense that the SVP (which is by definition within the realm of symbols/thought and unaware of its own unreality) doesn't exist in reality. Still, it feels to exist for many people, and brushing that suffering off as merely another modulation of Brahman does very little to end suffering. In my opinion, the thought free state has the potential to make all of this clear. The intellectual arrangement of nondual ideas doesn't. (Save perhaps a rare few.) Agreed, and it may be worth pointing out that Stephens, Somers-Morgan, Kushi, and many others neither practiced anything nor had any kind of trust in the sense that Amit is suggesting. In the case of those characters the mind simply went silent, without any effort or practice, and the truth was revealed. Sure, SVP-ing is just Brahman SVP-ing, but from the POV of the suffering SVP it isn't very helpful to hear someone say, "Well, you're just Brahman SVP-ing; all of your problems are Brahman problem-ing; all of your suffering is Brahman suffering; so you can trust that there's no real problem." Some sort of realization is necessary to make that underlying truth obvious. In the case of Stephens he had a deep intellectual understanding that Brahman was the only reality, but it didn't end the trauma of his childhood sexual abuse, nor did it resolve any of his suffering until after his mind went silent and there was a direct realization of what had previously only been an intellectual understanding.
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Sept 12, 2020 7:57:41 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2020 7:57:41 GMT -5
That's certainly the way this character sees the issue. Batgap recently had an interview between Rick Archer and Terry Stephens. In the past Stephens had been a student of Sailor Bob (who had spent a year with Nisargadatta), and he left Bob when he thought he understood ND completely. He said, "I had a deep intellectual understanding to such a degree that there were no longer any questions. In essence he says, "I knew that Brahman is all there is." At that point he got on with his life." Twenty years later his life fell apart. His wife divorced him; his son and family disowned him; and he found himself utterly alone and in deep despair. He was such a miserable character that no one wanted to be around him. He had been a victim of child abuse and that trauma had never been resolved even though he had gone to counseling and done all kinds of other stuff to overcome it. He reached a point much like Tolle, and although he had no belief in an external interventionist God, he became so bereft of hope that he verbally said, "Either take me or save me, kill me or enlighten me, because I no longer care which you do." Amazingly, after speaking this prayer, his mind went totally silent, and it stayed totally silent for five entire months! He said that he did nothing other than sit in a chair on his porch and look at the sky. After five months, mind began to stir again, and he happened to look at a tree. It was as if he had never seen a tree before, and he marveled at what he was seeing. He looked around, and discovered that the whole world had changed and had come to life. He then got what he called "a download" from an intelligence beyond comprehension. Afterwards, the SVP had disappeared entirely, and only then did he realize that all of his prior understanding of ND had been completely intellectual. The interview is one of the more unusual interviews Rick has done because of the interaction between Rick and Terry. Rick tries to postulate all kinds of intellectual nonsense and Terry laughingly refutes it all. Terry tells Rick near the end of the interview about looking up the man who had abused him as a twelve-year old, and what happened during that confrontation, and that's a pretty amazing story as well. If nothing else, the interview reveals in startling clarity the difference between an intellectual understanding of ND and a direct realization of the truth. That sounds like a fun interview. I'll see if I find the time. You are probably referring to this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=z85QA5GVqs8Yes, it's what we sometimes call mind-enlightenment, it allows one to seemingly explain everything in an intellectually very satisfying way. But that kind of understanding is only skin deep, there's no solid foundation to it, as he found out the hard way many years later. It could be said that the average person stuck in the consensus trance is moving around in a dream world, looks at a tree but can't see the tree, can't see the tree for what it actually is. And the mind-enlightened person is no different. The mind-enlightened person can't see either. The only difference is that the mind-enlightened person lives a slightly enhanced dream as compared to the average person. But in essence, both are dreaming, both can't see.
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Sept 12, 2020 8:19:57 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2020 8:19:57 GMT -5
Nothing has to be done about the SVP. It is already Brahman and not seeing that is also Brahman. What is being suggested is much worse from your point of view, it is that it is the mind, which conducts the search, that has the capacity to resonate and that resonance by the mind ends the search. For reasons already mentioned, no comparison in terms of quality of experience can be known in order to compare that quality with those who are said to end the search by practise. So to limit the capacity of the mind could even be said to limit this helpful role. So when it is said that it is a problem that it may only be by the mind, that is no problem whatsoever because the mind is simply Brahman minding. That's beside the point. The point here is that there is the experience of existential suffering and the root of that experience is the SVP. Take the SVP out of the equation and that experience is gone as well. Now, what you are saying is, that's not necessary, it's enough for the SVP to understand that it's all just Brahman. To which I say, the SVP, by definition, cannot understand that all is just Brahman. So at best what you are suggesting is going to be a mind game. You can't fake this from the SVP perspective. The SVP perspective needs to be transcended. And that can only happen with a realization, not mere insights or logic. The SVP has no actual reference for what the term 'Brahman' is pointing to. It's all conjecture. It never leaves the realm of the conceptual.
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Trust
Sept 12, 2020 9:26:17 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2020 9:26:17 GMT -5
Hi ZD. It is basically the same reply as given to Reefs, so repeated here. Nothing has to be done about the SVP. It is already Brahman and not seeing that is also Brahman. What is being suggested is much worse from your point of view, it is that it is the mind, which conducts the search, that has the capacity to resonate and that resonance by the mind ends the search. For reasons already mentioned, no comparison in terms of quality of experience can be known in order to compare that quality with those who are said to end the search by practise. So to limit the capacity of the mind could even be said to limit this helpful role. So when it is said that it is a problem that it may only be by the mind, that is no problem whatsoever because the mind is simply Brahman minding. There's a lot of suffering in the world in terms of subjective mental experience, which I think is pretty much beyond doubt. Some people suffer. From an "absolute truth" angle it may be simply Brahman "minding", but that concept doesn't do much for that particular person's suffering. I will concede that "Nothing has to be done about the SVP", in the sense that the SVP (which is by definition within the realm of symbols/thought and unaware of its own unreality) doesn't exist in reality. Still, it feels to exist for many people, and brushing that suffering off as merely another modulation of Brahman does very little to end suffering. In my opinion, the thought free state has the potential to make all of this clear. The intellectual arrangement of nondual ideas doesn't. (Save perhaps a rare few.) Yes, just rearranging contexts isn't going to do it. As Shadowplay pointed out just recently, what we are dealing with here is basically a context mix.
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