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Trust
Aug 26, 2020 12:52:22 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Aug 26, 2020 12:52:22 GMT -5
Yes, and some feel that it can never be known whether they have got to the bottom of their conditioning, and never come to trust even profound spiritual experiences through successful practise. Mind/ego can easily construct these. Those that see these difficulties feel it is better not to bother in view of such an uncertain outcome, and just trust instead. However there are no guarentees with trust either, but at least one should be able to discover the conditioning that led to loss of trust in the child, and hopefully through those realizations as an adult, restore it. For some people trust plays almost no role at all. I can think of several sages who found the truth simply by contemplating various existential issues that they were interested in. Others had mind-blowing kensho events even though they weren't consciously seeking anything, and those events, alone, pointed the way forward. Others, like Tolle, suffered severe angst, or abject despair, and that kind of life experience triggered a kensho-type event. Trust usually becomes a factor if someone meets a sage who seems to have found something significant and that person wants what the sage seems to exhibit. Most of the old-timers in TAT, for example, were significantly influenced by meeting Richard Rose because Rose had a charismatic and powerful personality, and he gave talks to college students about enlightenment (many of whom knew nothing about that sort of thing until they heard Rose talk about it.) FWIW, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to trust someone other than him/herself if s/he has what ZM Seung Sahn used to call "a strong center." Most scientists are naturally skeptical, and they like to validate truth claims for themselves. This is one of the most significant aspects of the scientific method, and it's the reason that many Buddhists claim that Buddhism teaches a similar approach to that of science. I think the Buddha, himself, told people not to take his word for anything.
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Trust
Aug 26, 2020 13:40:38 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 26, 2020 13:40:38 GMT -5
Niz said that the reason he could be trusted is because he didn't want anything from the person asking the question, but, instead, hoped and wished for them that they could discover what he had. I think he might have even said this more than once. Why does anyone ever get interested in what someone else has to say? This can be all over the map. It can be because we can relate to what we imagine the other person to be like based on their descriptions of their past experience and how we react to what they're saying. It can be because they represent something that's foreign to us that sparks our curiosity for some reason. I can also be because they evoke a strong negative reaction. Trust can only ever follow from that initial interest, and, like any other movement of mind, it might involve varying degrees of subconscious entanglement we're not even aware of as it's happening. This is the salesman's secret, by the way. So, to answer one of your questions, yes, trust is based, in part, on our conditioned psyche/body/mind. But there is something deeper going on as well. Niz also said more than once that what he was saying could be self-validated, and yes, I recall this particular dialog where he lays out the difference between these two paths. Perhaps, we might infer that a path to trust might be asking first, "what does this person want from me?".
Doesn't that seem to implicate, also .. "what is it that I want, from them?". Maybe those who practise are not particularly trusting and need the experiences (embodiment) offered by the particular practise followed before trust/ripening in the practise. If those experiences are not forthcoming, they can move onto another practise which may work. Those who trust do not need such experiences so practise is not required. What suits one may not suit another. If trust is fundemental to both approaches, maybe practise could include looking at the conditioning in childhood, that led to a lack of trust, such as being let down a lot, which may lead to trust being restored as not such a fearful thing in adulthood. The search is motivated by discomfort. Some have no experience in memory to help them, so look externally for more data, some of which is of course provided by those who have already addressed the problem. Some trust what they hear until there is evidence to the contrary, others are very suspicous right from the start. The latter are more likely to want self validaton, which is also filled with potential difficulties requiring addressing conditioning. As usual there is room for different approaches depending on the character of the seeker. What you write about people who don't trust is compassionate. I'd say that various practice might be opportunities for many seekers even if they do trust. Going back to Niz, he practiced as passionately as he did precisely because of his trust.
Looking back on my search I can understand what you mean by the motivation of discomfort, but this isn't the only possibility, or, the only possible component of the motivation. For me it was mostly curiosity.
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Trust
Aug 26, 2020 14:17:06 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Aug 26, 2020 14:17:06 GMT -5
Maybe those who practise are not particularly trusting and need the experiences (embodiment) offered by the particular practise followed before trust/ripening in the practise. If those experiences are not forthcoming, they can move onto another practise which may work. Those who trust do not need such experiences so practise is not required. What suits one may not suit another. If trust is fundemental to both approaches, maybe practise could include looking at the conditioning in childhood, that led to a lack of trust, such as being let down a lot, which may lead to trust being restored as not such a fearful thing in adulthood. The search is motivated by discomfort. Some have no experience in memory to help them, so look externally for more data, some of which is of course provided by those who have already addressed the problem. Some trust what they hear until there is evidence to the contrary, others are very suspicous right from the start. The latter are more likely to want self validaton, which is also filled with potential difficulties requiring addressing conditioning. As usual there is room for different approaches depending on the character of the seeker. What you write about people who don't trust is compassionate. I'd say that various practice might be opportunities for many seekers even if they do trust. Going back to Niz, he practiced as passionately as he did precisely because of his trust.
Looking back on my search I can understand what you mean by the motivation of discomfort, but this isn't the only possibility, or, the only possible component of the motivation. For me it was mostly curiosity.
Same here.
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Post by amit on Aug 26, 2020 17:04:43 GMT -5
Maybe those who practise are not particularly trusting and need the experiences (embodiment) offered by the particular practise followed before trust/ripening in the practise. If those experiences are not forthcoming, they can move onto another practise which may work. Those who trust do not need such experiences so practise is not required. What suits one may not suit another. If trust is fundemental to both approaches, maybe practise could include looking at the conditioning in childhood, that led to a lack of trust, such as being let down a lot, which may lead to trust being restored as not such a fearful thing in adulthood. The search is motivated by discomfort. Some have no experience in memory to help them, so look externally for more data, some of which is of course provided by those who have already addressed the problem. Some trust what they hear until there is evidence to the contrary, others are very suspicous right from the start. The latter are more likely to want self validaton, which is also filled with potential difficulties requiring addressing conditioning. As usual there is room for different approaches depending on the character of the seeker. What you write about people who don't trust is compassionate. I'd say that various practice might be opportunities for many seekers even if they do trust. Going back to Niz, he practiced as passionately as he did precisely because of his trust.
Looking back on my search I can understand what you mean by the motivation of discomfort, but this isn't the only possibility, or, the only possible component of the motivation. For me it was mostly curiosity.
Yes discomfort not the only reason. For me it was mostly feeling lost that motivated the search whilst cleaning up from being wrecked as a musician in London as a young man. I tend to trust everybody unless evidence to the contrary, so trust not an issue for me.
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Trust
Aug 26, 2020 17:48:25 GMT -5
Post by amit on Aug 26, 2020 17:48:25 GMT -5
For some people trust plays almost no role at all. I can think of several sages who found the truth simply by contemplating various existential issues that they were interested in. Others had mind-blowing kensho events even though they weren't consciously seeking anything, and those events, alone, pointed the way forward. Others, like Tolle, suffered severe angst, or abject despair, and that kind of life experience triggered a kensho-type event. Trust usually becomes a factor if someone meets a sage who seems to have found something significant and that person wants what the sage seems to exhibit. Most of the old-timers in TAT, for example, were significantly influenced by meeting Richard Rose because Rose had a charismatic and powerful personality, and he gave talks to college students about enlightenment (many of whom knew nothing about that sort of thing until they heard Rose talk about it.) FWIW, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to trust someone other than him/herself if s/he has what ZM Seung Sahn used to call "a strong center." Most scientists are naturally skeptical, and they like to validate truth claims for themselves. This is one of the most significant aspects of the scientific method, and it's the reason that many Buddhists claim that Buddhism teaches a similar approach to that of science. I think the Buddha, himself, told people not to take his word for anything. For some people trust plays almost no role at all. I can think of several sages who found the truth simply by contemplating various existential issues that they were interested in. Others had mind-blowing kensho events even though they weren't consciously seeking anything, and those events, alone, pointed the way forward. Others, like Tolle, suffered severe angst, or abject despair, and that kind of life experience triggered a kensho-type event. Trust usually becomes a factor if someone meets a sage who seems to have found something significant and that person wants what the sage seems to exhibit. Most of the old-timers in TAT, for example, were significantly influenced by meeting Richard Rose because Rose had a charismatic and powerful personality, and he gave talks to college students about enlightenment (many of whom knew nothing about that sort of thing until they heard Rose talk about it.) FWIW, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to trust someone other than him/herself if s/he has what ZM Seung Sahn used to call "a strong center." Most scientists are naturally skeptical, and they like to validate truth claims for themselves. This is one of the most significant aspects of the scientific method, and it's the reason that many Buddhists claim that Buddhism teaches a similar approach to that of science. I think the Buddha, himself, told people not to take his word for anything. The post you quoted was written by me. I must have pressed the wrong key and it came out in the wrong place. Some trust because they are daunted by what practise can involve, particularly the potentially bottomless pit of identifying and resolving conditioning. Trust is also not free from conditioning distortions but it may be simpler to work out what led to a lack of trust.
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Trust
Aug 26, 2020 17:55:38 GMT -5
Post by amit on Aug 26, 2020 17:55:38 GMT -5
ZD said.
"For some people trust plays almost no role at all. I can think of several sages who found the truth simply by contemplating various existential issues that they were interested in. Others had mind-blowing kensho events even though they weren't consciously seeking anything, and those events, alone, pointed the way forward. Others, like Tolle, suffered severe angst, or abject despair, and that kind of life experience triggered a kensho-type event. Trust usually becomes a factor if someone meets a sage who seems to have found something significant and that person wants what the sage seems to exhibit. Most of the old-timers in TAT, for example, were significantly influenced by meeting Richard Rose because Rose had a charismatic and powerful personality, and he gave talks to college students about enlightenment (many of whom knew nothing about that sort of thing until they heard Rose talk about it.)
FWIW, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to trust someone other than him/herself if s/he has what ZM Seung Sahn used to call "a strong center." Most scientists are naturally skeptical, and they like to validate truth claims for themselves. This is one of the most significant aspects of the scientific method, and it's the reason that many Buddhists claim that Buddhism teaches a similar approach to that of science. I think the Buddha, himself, told people not to take his word for anything."
The post you quoted was written by me. I must have pressed the wrong key and it came out in the wrong place.
Some trust because they are daunted by what practise can involve, particularly the potentially bottomless pit of identifying and resolving conditioning. Trust is also not free from conditioning distortions but it may be simpler to work out what led to a lack of trust.
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Trust
Aug 27, 2020 7:41:02 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 27, 2020 7:41:02 GMT -5
What you write about people who don't trust is compassionate. I'd say that various practice might be opportunities for many seekers even if they do trust. Going back to Niz, he practiced as passionately as he did precisely because of his trust.
Looking back on my search I can understand what you mean by the motivation of discomfort, but this isn't the only possibility, or, the only possible component of the motivation. For me it was mostly curiosity.
Same here. For me most of the seeking was done sub/unconsciously, so, I can relate to various elements of fear, dread and pleasure seeking besides just the curiosity. But, it was the curiosity that was all that was left at the end, and I sometimes actually get nostalgic for it.
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Trust
Aug 27, 2020 8:54:56 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Aug 27, 2020 8:54:56 GMT -5
For me most of the seeking was done sub/unconsciously, so, I can relate to various elements of fear, dread and pleasure seeking besides just the curiosity. But, it was the curiosity that was all that was left at the end, and I sometimes actually get nostalgic for it. We haven't discussed the fear aspect too much, but I can see why many people might fear the loss of selfhood if they haven't had any experience with that sort of thing. I only encountered fear twice that I can remember. The first time was during a kensho event. Although I had forgotten my name during that experience, lost my personal identity, and directly seen the infinite vastness of reality, at one point during the experience parts of my visual field began disappearing. While looking at a construction superintendent who I was talking with, the center part of his body visually disappeared. I could see his shoulders, head, face and legs, but the entire central portion of his body became a fog-like empty space. By strongly concentrating, I could bring his body back into view, but any relaxation of concentration caused the center part of the visual field to dissolve. I turned and looked at a wall, and the same thing happened; I could only see the right and left sides of the wall in my peripheral vision. This frightened me because it seemed like I could totally lose touch with reality if this kind of dissolution continued. There must have been some subconscious or residual sense of selfhood for such fear of the disappearance of reality to occur, because I had no interest in disappearing into what seemed like a total void. After remembering my name and personal identity several minutes later, this sort of visual effect ceased to occur, and the world once again became visually stable. I've talked to people who have encountered that same kind of void, and they also found it intensely frightening. Some ND teachers suggest letting go and entering the void when that happens, but I prefer to tell people to trust themselves and do whatever seems appropriate at the time.
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Trust
Aug 27, 2020 20:07:12 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 27, 2020 20:07:12 GMT -5
For me most of the seeking was done sub/unconsciously, so, I can relate to various elements of fear, dread and pleasure seeking besides just the curiosity. But, it was the curiosity that was all that was left at the end, and I sometimes actually get nostalgic for it. We haven't discussed the fear aspect too much, but I can see why many people might fear the loss of selfhood if they haven't had any experience with that sort of thing. I only encountered fear twice that I can remember. The first time was during a kensho event. Although I had forgotten my name during that experience, lost my personal identity, and directly seen the infinite vastness of reality, at one point during the experience parts of my visual field began disappearing. While looking at a construction superintendent who I was talking with, the center part of his body visually disappeared. I could see his shoulders, head, face and legs, but the entire central portion of his body became a fog-like empty space. By strongly concentrating, I could bring his body back into view, but any relaxation of concentration caused the center part of the visual field to dissolve. I turned and looked at a wall, and the same thing happened; I could only see the right and left sides of the wall in my peripheral vision. This frightened me because it seemed like I could totally lose touch with reality if this kind of dissolution continued. There must have been some subconscious or residual sense of selfhood for such fear of the disappearance of reality to occur, because I had no interest in disappearing into what seemed like a total void. After remembering my name and personal identity several minutes later, this sort of visual effect ceased to occur, and the world once again became visually stable. I've talked to people who have encountered that same kind of void, and they also found it intensely frightening. Some ND teachers suggest letting go and entering the void when that happens, but I prefer to tell people to trust themselves and do whatever seems appropriate at the time. Sounds like good advice to me. I remember reading about that phone ringing in Pouring Concrete. It was quite riveting. I can only imagine that. By the time I'd starting meditating the sense of "personal I" had already been disrupted to an extent there was no going back. What I can recall of existential fear throughout my life is a sort of constant underlying baseline existential dread. I also remember diving in clear fresh water in a big lake with a sharp dropoff, dozens of times, and feeling a sort of shudder at the scale of the depths. At one point in my 20's or early 30's I read something, I can't recall the source, but it went sort of like: Maybe this was a sort of post-hypnotic suggestion, but I found the same happening to me as well. I never got to the point the author refers to where the thought of death happened every day, but every now and then, I'd get hyper-conscious to the notion that I was going to cease to exist, and would experience a momentary, but viseral sense of intense panic at the notion. I've actually gone looking for that as part of meditation after the Tolle mind fry. Can't find it anymore.
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Trust
Aug 30, 2020 16:52:05 GMT -5
Post by inavalan on Aug 30, 2020 16:52:05 GMT -5
That is amusing ... quoting a guru supporting "throwing trust [in others' teachings] out the window"! No offense intended, just for laughter ... Sure, I can understand the irony in it. But it's a recurring theme in the cultures that present nonduality: "this is what I'm telling you, but you don't have to trust me. Verify it for yourself". Actually it was amusing that you quoted a guru (in support of not trusting gurus), not the guru's quote.
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Trust
Aug 31, 2020 9:42:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by zazeniac on Aug 31, 2020 9:42:20 GMT -5
Being a "seeker" I trust that there is only brahman. I imagine it's different for the self-realized.
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Trust
Aug 31, 2020 10:39:18 GMT -5
Post by amit on Aug 31, 2020 10:39:18 GMT -5
Being a "seeker" I trust that there is only brahman. I imagine it's different for the self-realized. If there is only Brahman, that includes 'you', so 'you' are already what you seek, and cannot become what you already are, so the search ends. That does not have to be realized, because it is already Brahman not realizing, so you will not become more Brahman by realizing:)
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Trust
Aug 31, 2020 10:50:10 GMT -5
Post by zazeniac on Aug 31, 2020 10:50:10 GMT -5
Being a "seeker" I trust that there is only brahman. I imagine it's different for the self-realized. If there is only Brahman, that includes 'you', so 'you' are already what you seek, and cannot become what you already are, so the search ends. That does not have to be realized, because it is already Brahman not realizing, so you will not become more Brahman by realizing:) That's the difference, I "believe" I'm already what I seek. There's a claim of a difference between " believing" and "seeing/knowing."
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Trust
Aug 31, 2020 10:58:02 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Aug 31, 2020 10:58:02 GMT -5
Being a "seeker" I trust that there is only brahman. I imagine it's different for the self-realized. If there is only Brahman, that includes 'you', so 'you' are already what you seek, and cannot become what you already are, so the search ends. That does not have to be realized, because it is already Brahman not realizing, so you will not become more Brahman by realizing:) Yes, you are already what you seek. But as a seeker you have no clue what that is. And so the search continues.
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Trust
Aug 31, 2020 10:59:22 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Aug 31, 2020 10:59:22 GMT -5
If there is only Brahman, that includes 'you', so 'you' are already what you seek, and cannot become what you already are, so the search ends. That does not have to be realized, because it is already Brahman not realizing, so you will not become more Brahman by realizing:) That's the difference, I "believe" I'm already what I seek. There's a claim of a difference between " believing" and "seeing/knowing." Exactly.
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