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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 18, 2020 16:16:40 GMT -5
I'm curious ... How does one know whom to follow? How do you know which guru, or dogma, is right? Once you've started to look for something you were told there is, you already have expectations, and you create what you expect. That includes "nothing". I know several people, like this character, who never searched for a teacher but found the truth by contemplating various existential questions. In several of these cases, a direct experience revealed the living truth and that pointed in a particular direction that was later corroborated by various sages or books in the non-duality traditions. All it takes is one glimpse of the Infinite to make one realize that reality is NOT what most people imagine it to be. People without direct experiences or insights into what's going on are at a much greater disadvantage, and whether or not they find a good teacher can sometimes just be the luck of the draw. As Amit stated, most people in that position tend to resonate with particular teachings or teachers they hear about, and that's the direction they go. Countless people, for example, have read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now," and strongly resonated with the words in that book. In some cases that was the first introduction to non-duality that they had, and that's fortunate because he's a teacher who offers extremely good pointers.
Bingo, I actually thought that's what inavalan was pointing to (which amit didn't recognize). Picking a teacher is kind of like codependency, we pick a teacher/teaching that corresponds to our brokenness, which means our ego-identification. What we see is what we are. The real journey begins only when we recognize this, and then get past it. Then, life can be our teacher, every minute of every day. But usually there is a period of in-between, when we get tricked again, and again, by...mirror images. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 18, 2020 16:31:38 GMT -5
Maybe inavalan can clarify the intended question. Twice. I guess I don't know what trolling is. (Anybody like to help me on this? ... honestly).
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Post by Peter on Jul 19, 2020 4:58:58 GMT -5
Maybe inavalan can clarify the intended question. Twice. I guess I don't know what trolling is. (Anybody like to help me on this? ... honestly). Help you with knowing what trolling is, or being able to spot it? For a definition I came up with "Being disingenuous in order to provoke an emotional response in another person". The Urban Dictionary of course does a much better job: www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TrollingIn terms of how to spot it, that's quite tricky because you have to know someone quite well to be able to determine when they're not being their true selves (and I mean true as in normal, not like Tara Brach True Self). Which is quite interesting in itself because it reflects back how easy it is to jump to the assumption that another person is stupid or racist, or holds opinions that might seem unjustifiable. So in the situation where you can't be sure if someone is genuinely objectionable or if they're just pulling your leg, I find the safest thing is to respond calmly, in the manner of replying to a coke'd up toddler. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 19, 2020 5:58:24 GMT -5
Twice. I guess I don't know what trolling is. (Anybody like to help me on this? ... honestly). Help you with knowing what trolling is, or being able to spot it? For a definition I came up with "Being disingenuous in order to provoke an emotional response in another person". The Urban Dictionary of course does a much better job: www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TrollingIn terms of how to spot it, that's quite tricky because you have to know someone quite well to be able to determine when they're not being their true selves (and I mean true as in normal, not like Tara Brach True Self). Which is quite interesting in itself because it reflects back how easy it is to jump to the assumption that another person is stupid or racist, or holds opinions that might seem unjustifiable. So in the situation where you can't be sure if someone is genuinely objectionable or if they're just pulling your leg, I find the safest thing is to respond calmly, in the manner of replying to a coke'd up toddler. I always considered it a kind of internet stalking, I was never interested enough to look it up. But my interest here was in finding out why inavalan considered I was trolling him, and then yet again (I really didn't have a clue, but steered clear for weeks, first time). Secondly (second time), I really thought amit hadn't seen inavalan's point/question, that's why I asked for clarification. ST's people are different, as far as looking for a teacher, because they are mostly "veterans". But generally, people look for a teacher/teaching that matches their ego-needs. So in these cases people aren't really looking for truth, they are looking for repair, really psychological repair (but don't know this). There isn't any ego-repair, ego is the problem. The solution is on another level (or a wider field). Most ST's members already know this, and have gotten past this or are in the process. But thanks for the definition. ....for the record, I try never to be disingenuous. I try to find a way to write from accuracy. Do I limit myself posting? Yes. If that's being disingenuous, then guilty. I believe in the art of fighting without fighting. BL (ETD) |
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Post by amit on Jul 19, 2020 5:59:23 GMT -5
As Amit, SDP, and others have noted, every path is slightly (or majorly) different because every human is unique. I know several people, like this character, who never searched for a teacher but found the truth by contemplating various existential questions. In several of these cases, a direct experience revealed the living truth and that pointed in a particular direction that was later corroborated by various sages or books in the non-duality traditions. All it takes is one glimpse of the Infinite to make one realize that reality is NOT what most people imagine it to be. People without direct experiences or insights into what's going on are at a much greater disadvantage, and whether or not they find a good teacher can sometimes just be the luck of the draw. As Amit stated, most people in that position tend to resonate with particular teachings or teachers they hear about, and that's the direction they go. Countless people, for example, have read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now," and strongly resonated with the words in that book. In some cases that was the first introduction to non-duality that they had, and that's fortunate because he's a teacher who offers extremely good pointers.
Bingo, I actually thought that's what inavalan was pointing to (which amit didn't recognize). Picking a teacher is kind of like codependency, we pick a teacher/teaching that corresponds to our brokenness, which means our ego-identification. What we see is what we are. The real journey begins only when we recognize this, and then get past it. Then, life can be our teacher, every minute of every day. But usually there is a period of in-between, when we get tricked again, and again, by...mirror images. It really doesnt matter what triggers the resonance that ends the spiritual search. One may just happen to find a book on a friends coffee table, hear something on the radio, deliberately embark on the search by finding a guru, seletion based on neurotic conditioning, or an experience in ones everyday life. One is no better than any other. The point is the head gets into the Tigers mouth and the search process begins to evolve. Why some information resonates and some does not is part of the mystery of vibration connections between frequencies that is resonance. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 19, 2020 6:19:09 GMT -5
Bingo, I actually thought that's what inavalan was pointing to (which amit didn't recognize). Picking a teacher is kind of like codependency, we pick a teacher/teaching that corresponds to our brokenness, which means our ego-identification. What we see is what we are. The real journey begins only when we recognize this, and then get past it. Then, life can be our teacher, every minute of every day. But usually there is a period of in-between, when we get tricked again, and again, by...mirror images. It really doesnt matter what triggers the resonance that ends the spiritual search. One may just happen to find a book on a friends coffee table, hear something on the radio, deliberately embark on the search by finding a guru, or an experience in ones everyday life. One is no better than any other. Why some information resonates and some does not is part of the mystery of vibration connections between frequencies that is resonance. OK, but my point was there is a distinction between truth searching in and of itself, and a "spiritual search" that isn't really a spiritual search but a search for ego-repair. In the beginning, most people cannot tell the difference. People usually have to come to an actual dead end, to begin the real search. Any search within the realm of ego-functioning, that is, ego doing the searching, will always eventually lead to a dead end, because nothing within the realm of ego leads to or has an answer. Now, most people that come here, ST's forum, have an understanding of that. But the question is, resonates with what? In the beginning of a search, which, again, is usually ego-searching, the resonance is with ego. This never leads to anything good, it's, again, a kind of codependency of finding a puzzle piece that fits one's brokenness. Most people find a comfort zone with some teaching, and stay there, they find a fit that works (for ego). But if there is a deeper longing for truth, people keep moving to something else. The lucky ones are people that keep being bothered, still have angst, who never find a "home"/comfort zone, until there is this breakthrough. It's really a breakthrough to seeing self/ego is empty, a dead end. (And see post above). That's why resonance in and of itself isn't the answer. Is it ego-resonance or truth-resonance? |
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Post by amit on Jul 19, 2020 6:37:37 GMT -5
It really doesnt matter what triggers the resonance that ends the spiritual search. One may just happen to find a book on a friends coffee table, hear something on the radio, deliberately embark on the search by finding a guru, or an experience in ones everyday life. One is no better than any other. Why some information resonates and some does not is part of the mystery of vibration connections between frequencies that is resonance. OK, but my point was there is a distinction between truth searching in and of itself, and a "spiritual search" that isn't really a spiritual search but a search for ego-repair. In the beginning, most people cannot tell the difference. People usually have to come to an actual dead end, to begin the real search. Any search within the realm of ego-functioning, that is, ego doing the searching, will always eventually lead to a dead end, because nothing within the realm of ego leads to or has an answer. Now, most people that come here, ST's forum, have an understanding of that. But the question is, resonates with what? In the beginning of a search, which, again, is usually ego-searching, the resonance is with ego. This never leads to anything good, it's, again, a kind of codependency of finding a puzzle piece that fits one's brokenness. Most people find a comfort zone with some teaching, and stay there, they find a fit that works (for ego). But if there is a deeper longing for truth, people keep moving to something else. The lucky ones are people that keep being bothered, still have angst, who never find a "home"/comfort zone, until there is this breakthrough. It's really a breakthrough to seeing self/ego is empty, a dead end. (And see post above). That's why resonance in and of itself isn't the answer. Is it ego-resonance or truth-resonance? For some establishing truth is a trap which is trancended so that barrier to progress is removed. However some still require that what they decide to follow is the truth, so for those folk the truth seeing you mention is bound to include dealing with ones conditioning/ego as part of evolving practise process. Without the connetion of initial resonance, and the resulting focus, there would not be the start of that evolution. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 19, 2020 10:39:35 GMT -5
OK, but my point was there is a distinction between truth searching in and of itself, and a "spiritual search" that isn't really a spiritual search but a search for ego-repair. In the beginning, most people cannot tell the difference. People usually have to come to an actual dead end, to begin the real search. Any search within the realm of ego-functioning, that is, ego doing the searching, will always eventually lead to a dead end, because nothing within the realm of ego leads to or has an answer. Now, most people that come here, ST's forum, have an understanding of that. But the question is, resonates with what? In the beginning of a search, which, again, is usually ego-searching, the resonance is with ego. This never leads to anything good, it's, again, a kind of codependency of finding a puzzle piece that fits one's brokenness. Most people find a comfort zone with some teaching, and stay there, they find a fit that works (for ego). But if there is a deeper longing for truth, people keep moving to something else. The lucky ones are people that keep being bothered, still have angst, who never find a "home"/comfort zone, until there is this breakthrough. It's really a breakthrough to seeing self/ego is empty, a dead end. (And see post above). That's why resonance in and of itself isn't the answer. Is it ego-resonance or truth-resonance? For some establishing truth is a trap which is trancended so that barrier to progress is removed. However some still require that what they decide to follow is the truth, so for those folk the truth seeing you mention is bound to include dealing with ones conditioning/ego as part of evolving practise process. Without the connetion of initial resonance, and the resulting focus, there would not be the start of that evolution. Yes, but a Zen story applies here. The Zen Master walked by a disciple, meditating. Zen Master asks: What are you doing? Disciple replies, I am meditating to become enlightened. So the Master picks up two bricks and begins rubbing them together. Disciple asks: What are you doing Master? Master replies, I am rubbing these together to make a mirror. Disciple bursts out: Master! Never will you make a mirror by rubbing two bricks together! Master replies, And never will you become enlightened, by meditating. The two are discontinuous. |
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Post by amit on Jul 19, 2020 11:08:42 GMT -5
For some establishing truth is a trap which is trancended so that barrier to progress is removed. However some still require that what they decide to follow is the truth, so for those folk the truth seeing you mention is bound to include dealing with ones conditioning/ego as part of evolving practise process. Without the connetion of initial resonance, and the resulting focus, there would not be the start of that evolution. Yes, but a Zen story applies here. The Zen Master walked by a disciple, meditating. Zen Master asks: What are you doing? Disciple replies, I am meditating to become enlightened. So the Master picks up two bricks and begins rubbing them together. Disciple asks: What are you doing Master? Master replies, I am rubbing these together to make a mirror. Disciple bursts out: Master! Never will you make a mirror by rubbing two bricks together! Master replies, And never will you become enlightened, by meditating. The two are discontinuous. For some establishing truth is a trap which is trancended so that barrier to progress is removed. However some still require that what they decide to follow is the truth, so for those folk the truth seeing you mention is bound to include dealing with ones conditioning/ego as part of evolving practise process. Without the connetion of initial resonance, and the resulting focus, there would not be the start of that evolution. Yes, but a Zen story applies here. The Zen Master walked by a disciple, meditating. Zen Master asks: What are you doing? Disciple replies, I am meditating to become enlightened. So the Master picks up two bricks and begins rubbing them together. Disciple asks: What are you doing Master? Master replies, I am rubbing these together to make a mirror. Disciple bursts out: Master! Never will you make a mirror by rubbing two bricks together! Master replies, And never will you become enlightened, by meditating. The two are discontinuous. I have never been disiplined enough to be successful with any practise whatsoever (Wayward musician:) but accept that it works for some. It seems that Niz also accepts that, but also sees that if it fails the seeker becomes ripe for fast realization based on trust. So it seems there is a way for all types. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 19, 2020 12:04:19 GMT -5
Yes, but a Zen story applies here. The Zen Master walked by a disciple, meditating. Zen Master asks: What are you doing? Disciple replies, I am meditating to become enlightened. So the Master picks up two bricks and begins rubbing them together. Disciple asks: What are you doing Master? Master replies, I am rubbing these together to make a mirror. Disciple bursts out: Master! Never will you make a mirror by rubbing two bricks together! Master replies, And never will you become enlightened, by meditating. The two are discontinuous. Yes, but a Zen story applies here. The Zen Master walked by a disciple, meditating. Zen Master asks: What are you doing? Disciple replies, I am meditating to become enlightened. So the Master picks up two bricks and begins rubbing them together. Disciple asks: What are you doing Master? Master replies, I am rubbing these together to make a mirror. Disciple bursts out: Master! Never will you make a mirror by rubbing two bricks together! Master replies, And never will you become enlightened, by meditating. The two are discontinuous. I have never been disiplined enough to be successful with any practise whatsoever (Wayward musician:) but accept that it works for some. It seems that Niz also accepts that, but also sees that if it fails the seeker becomes ripe for fast realization based on trust. So it seems there is a way for all types. Everybody has a a central focus in life, or maybe several, or maybe it changes. The focus determines events, determines one's life. If one is happy/content, no reason to change. |
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Post by amit on Jul 19, 2020 14:47:32 GMT -5
I have never been disiplined enough to be successful with any practise whatsoever (Wayward musician:) but accept that it works for some. It seems that Niz also accepts that, but also sees that if it fails the seeker becomes ripe for fast realization based on trust. So it seems there is a way for all types. Everybody has a a central focus in life, or maybe several, or maybe it changes. The focus determines events, determines one's life. If one is happy/content, no reason to change. In the case of spirituality some folk feel a lack of connection. They embark on the spiritual search and come accross various oiptions in the spiritual supermarket. Hopefully there is something for all who seek amongst the options laid out before them, hopefully without predjudice. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 19, 2020 17:02:52 GMT -5
Everybody has a a central focus in life, or maybe several, or maybe it changes. The focus determines events, determines one's life. If one is happy/content, no reason to change. In the case of spirituality some folk feel a lack of connection. They embark on the spiritual search and come accross various oiptions in the spiritual supermarket. Hopefully there is something for all who seek amongst the options laid out before them, hopefully without predjudice. And then some of us are driven solely by what we assume is scientific curiosity. We stumble blindly around in a pitch-black room having no clue about what's going on until we accidentally hit a light switch. haha! It's a real shock to discover that the search for intellectual understanding ultimately leads to something that is intellectually incomprehensible! The Infinite definitely has a huge sense of humor. |
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Post by amit on Jul 20, 2020 3:32:23 GMT -5
In the case of spirituality some folk feel a lack of connection. They embark on the spiritual search and come accross various oiptions in the spiritual supermarket. Hopefully there is something for all who seek amongst the options laid out before them, hopefully without predjudice. And then some of us are driven solely by what we assume is scientific curiosity. We stumble blindly around in a pitch-black room having no clue about what's going on until we accidentally hit a light switch. haha! It's a real shock to discover that the search for intellectual understanding ultimately leads to something that is intellectually incomprehensible! The Infinite definitely has a huge sense of humor. What would seekers want to encounter in the spiritual supermarket that would be helpful? Like any product one would hope to have a clear description of what is on offer, and perhaps some reviews and recomendations by customers/guru's ect:) Yes and after hitting the light switch, what does it means now that the feeling of disconnection has ended? For example does it mean that it is Oneness manifest as all the abuse in the world that is disliked so much? If 'I' am Oneness manifest, am 'I' the abuser? How do seekers reconcile such questions? No doubt some explore such questions with different teachers, speakers, writers, perhaps on forums like this, until all is included as Oneness manifest (suffering just regarded as a mystery) and the resonance is consolidated, or perhaps such questions are not satisfied and the search continues. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 20, 2020 6:20:02 GMT -5
And then some of us are driven solely by what we assume is scientific curiosity. We stumble blindly around in a pitch-black room having no clue about what's going on until we accidentally hit a light switch. haha! It's a real shock to discover that the search for intellectual understanding ultimately leads to something that is intellectually incomprehensible! The Infinite definitely has a huge sense of humor. What would seekers want to encounter in the spiritual supermarket that would be helpful? Like any product one would hope to have a clear description of what is on offer, and perhaps some reviews and recomendations by customers/guru's ect:) Yes and after hitting the light switch, what does it means now that the feeling of disconnection has ended? For example does it mean that it is Oneness manifest as all the abuse in the world that is disliked so much? If 'I' am Oneness manifest, am 'I' the abuser? How do seekers reconcile such questions? No doubt some explore such questions with different teachers, speakers, writers, perhaps on forums like this, until all is included as Oneness manifest (suffering just regarded as a mystery) and the resonance is consolidated, or perhaps such questions are not satisfied and the search continues. People search for the truth for many different reasons--to end suffering, to find understanding, to attain peace of mind, to become enlightened, to find God, etc. If they search with sufficient earnestness, they find something that cannot be described. Jesus called it "one's True Self." It is what sees, hears, feels, thinks, and acts, and it is not a thing. It is what one IS. The monumental illusion that captivates most humans is that they are separate volitional entities living in an external universe. Nothing could be further from the truth. What we are is both the abuser and the abused, the observer and the observed, self and other, everything and nothing. Humans have the capacity to imagine, but the truth cannot be imagined. All paths to truth involve leaving imagination behind. |
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Post by amit on Jul 20, 2020 7:10:32 GMT -5
What would seekers want to encounter in the spiritual supermarket that would be helpful? Like any product one would hope to have a clear description of what is on offer, and perhaps some reviews and recomendations by customers/guru's ect:) Yes and after hitting the light switch, what does it means now that the feeling of disconnection has ended? For example does it mean that it is Oneness manifest as all the abuse in the world that is disliked so much? If 'I' am Oneness manifest, am 'I' the abuser? How do seekers reconcile such questions? No doubt some explore such questions with different teachers, speakers, writers, perhaps on forums like this, until all is included as Oneness manifest (suffering just regarded as a mystery) and the resonance is consolidated, or perhaps such questions are not satisfied and the search continues. People search for the truth for many different reasons--to end suffering, to find understanding, to attain peace of mind, to become enlightened, to find God, etc. If they search with sufficient earnestness, they find something that cannot be described. Jesus called it "one's True Self." It is what sees, hears, feels, thinks, and acts, and it is not a thing. It is what one IS. The monumental illusion that captivates most humans is that they are separate volitional entities living in an external universe. Nothing could be further from the truth. What we are is both the abuser and the abused, the observer and the observed, self and other, everything and nothing. Humans have the capacity to imagine, but the truth cannot be imagined. All paths to truth involve leaving imagination behind. Yes the inescapable is that 'We' are both and all, which consolidates the resonance with nonduality, which, according to Niz, can be fast (trust) or slow (practise) depending on the character of the seeker. |
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