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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 4, 2020 11:01:11 GMT -5
Many many potential interesting dialogs.  This was a very interesting Ted Talk, and it made me wish to ramble on about one of my favorite hobby horses: the value of psychoanalysis -- which is, for those who don't know, not merely any therapy, but the family of therapies that come from Freud and his intellectual descendants. It's changed a lot in theory and practice since Freud's day, but the core remains. The 5 Buddhist hindrances that this monk mentions: sensual desire, ill will, dullness, restlessness, and indecision, are for many or most people not easily dealt with simply by thinking about them rationally and deciding to 'accept' and 'non-identify.' Arguably it only ever 'worked' because of an implicitly therapeutic relationship between the guru and the student in a monastic setting. It was that relationship that was really doing the lifting, one way or the other, in personality change, not simple 'rationality.' Psychoanalysis, unlike other therapies, does not address itself primarily to the rational mind -- does not simply address things on their surface -- but believes that our behaviors and our personality attributes are the products of unconscious conflicts, unformulated experience, and deficits and traumas that occurred in childhood... and that these then reverberate into styles of being that help us best contain anxiety, preserve relationships with key figures (even if those are purely mental relationships), and move towards understanding and the fulfillment of our needs. So if the hindrances above are deep, they cannot easily be dealt with by oneself, since the roots of the issues are unconscious, and we are structured so as to keep them that way... for the above reasons. We can't see our own blind spots. Psychoanalysis is a family of depth therapies, therefore, that seeks to unearth unconscious phenomena through the medium of the analytic relationship... though there are huge differences between analysts as to what precisely that means. But it takes lots and lots of time and effort, and is slow and uncertain. But the level of the sophistication of discourse as to psychological phenomena is off the charts higher among analysts compared to other therapies or to society as a whole. It's unfortunate that in an era of managed care, quick fixes, superficial rationality, and a kind of 'physics envy' in the field of psychology that it has been deprecated in favor of more 'understandable' therapies like cognitive-behavioral therapy... and of course therapy itself has often been pushed aside in favor of medication. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 4, 2020 15:03:49 GMT -5
Because I'm skeptical of psyhoanalysis I might mention that there are dozens of mental problems "caused" by biochemical, physical, or lifestyle issues. A few things to consider:
Mental institutions used to be filled with psychotic people who it was later learned had nothing wrong with them psychologically; they were simply deficient in vitamin B3. As soon as this was discovered, and patients were given B3, their psychoses came to an end.
In one study it was found that regular aerobic exercise cured depression at the same rate as either medication or psychoanalysis.
When my mother was young and dealing with 4 young children, she began to experience phobias and periods of depression. She went to her GP who told her to walk two miles everyday as a way to alleviate stress. The walking, alone, returned her to normal, and she walked regularly after that until she was over 90.
I had a friend who at the age of 31 suddenly began suffering anxiety and panic attacks. He went to his GP who then sent him to a psychiatrist. My friend was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and had begun to develop phobias. The first question the doc asked him was, "How is your sex life?" My friend replied, "It couldn't be better." (haha) The doctor then asked him about his early childhood. My friend replied, "It couldn't have been better." The doctor then suggested that my friend was in denial. My friend grew suspicious at this response, and after leaving the doc's office went to a bookstore to read about mental illness. In one book he read about some Israelis who went on extreme diets and subsequently suffered various kinds of mental illness, including full-blown psychosis. That rang an alarm bell, and my friend realized that his lifestyle in the two months prior to the advent of panic attacks had been extreme. He had gone on an extreme diet and also begun an extreme exercise program in anticipation of a future mountain-climbing expedition. He had also been working more than usual in order to save money to pay for the expedition. He went back to see the psychiatrist one more time, but this time he felt no respect for the doctor and began to question why the doctor hadn't asked him about his lifestyle. The doctor diagnosed "resistance" and told my friend that he recommended long-term psychotherapy. My friend told me that he considered the doctor an idiot. As a result of his own self-diagnosis, my friend took a vacation from work, began taking vitamins, and stopped both his extreme diet and his extreme exercise regimen. He told me that he realized from reading the book on mental illness that he had wrecked his mental health by "burning the candle at both ends," and he told me that it took him almost a year of living a healthy lifestyle to fully recover from the damage he had physically done to himself.
I could relate many more stories like this, but my guess is that too much stress, alone, is responsible for 70% of the mental problems that people experience. There may be a place for psychoanalysis, but from my POV it would only be as a last resort, and only after blood tests and lifestyle analysis had ruled out things such as anemia, vitamin deficiencies, and lifestyle issues such as "burning the candle from both ends." JMHO
I also suspect that regular meditation might be just as efficacious as psychoanalysis for bringing past childhood issues to the surface for resolution.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 4, 2020 16:45:15 GMT -5
Because I'm skeptical of psyhoanalysis I might mention that there are dozens of mental problems "caused" by biochemical, physical, or lifestyle issues. A few things to consider: Mental institutions used to be filled with psychotic people who it was later learned had nothing wrong with them psychologically; they were simply deficient in vitamin B3. As soon as this was discovered, and patients were given B3, their psychoses came to an end. In one study it was found that regular aerobic exercise cured depression at the same rate as either medication or psychoanalysis. When my mother was young and dealing with 4 young children, she began to experience phobias and periods of depression. She went to her GP who told her to walk two miles everyday as a way to alleviate stress. The walking, alone, returned her to normal, and she walked regularly after that until she was over 90. I had a friend who at the age of 31 suddenly began suffering anxiety and panic attacks. He went to his GP who then sent him to a psychiatrist. My friend was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and had begun to develop phobias. The first question the doc asked him was, "How is your sex life?" My friend replied, "It couldn't be better." (haha) The doctor then asked him about his early childhood. My friend replied, "It couldn't have been better." The doctor then suggested that my friend was in denial. My friend grew suspicious at this response, and after leaving the doc's office went to a bookstore to read about mental illness. In one book he read about some Israelis who went on extreme diets and subsequently suffered various kinds of mental illness, including full-blown psychosis. That rang an alarm bell, and my friend realized that his lifestyle in the two months prior to the advent of panic attacks had been extreme. He had gone on an extreme diet and also begun an extreme exercise program in anticipation of a future mountain-climbing expedition. He had also been working more than usual in order to save money to pay for the expedition. He went back to see the psychiatrist one more time, but this time he felt no respect for the doctor and began to question why the doctor hadn't asked him about his lifestyle. The doctor diagnosed "resistance" and told my friend that he recommended long-term psychotherapy. My friend told me that he considered the doctor an idiot. As a result of his own self-diagnosis, my friend took a vacation from work, began taking vitamins, and stopped both his extreme diet and his extreme exercise regimen. He told me that he realized from reading the book on mental illness that he had wrecked his mental health by "burning the candle at both ends," and he told me that it took him almost a year of living a healthy lifestyle to fully recover from the damage he had physically done to himself. I could relate many more stories like this, but my guess is that too much stress, alone, is responsible for 70% of the mental problems that people experience. There may be a place for psychoanalysis, but from my POV it would only be as a last resort, and only after blood tests and lifestyle analysis had ruled out things such as anemia, vitamin deficiencies, and lifestyle issues such as "burning the candle from both ends." JMHO I also suspect that regular meditation might be just as efficacious as psychoanalysis for bringing past childhood issues to the surface for resolution. Interesting thoughts. There certainly is a place for diet changes, but over a century of scientific studies suggests a universal conclusion: that therapy most certainly has a positive effect overall that cannot simply be replicated with dietary changes. There is no real literature -- only anecdote -- that attests to the idea that vitamins or diet solve the majority of depression, anxiety, personality disorders, phobias, obsessions, compulsions, and on and on and on. Maybe a few cases here and there, but hardly the majority. Though people can of course persuade themselves of things via the placebo effect. Anyhow good diet itself is often not followed for unconscious reasons. Why is the candle being burned at both ends? Unconscious reasons. As far as regular meditation bringing childhood issues to the surface, there is no evidence for it being a substitute all by itself for therapy when there is any problem of any real degree of seriousness. |
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Post by japhy on Jul 4, 2020 17:01:29 GMT -5
The 5 Buddhist hindrances that this monk mentions: sensual desire, ill will, dullness, restlessness, and indecision, are for many or most people not easily dealt with simply by thinking about them rationally and deciding to 'accept' and 'non-identify.' Arguably it only ever 'worked' because of an implicitly therapeutic relationship between the guru and the student in a monastic setting. Mostly I have seen the five hindrances mentioned with respect to the jhanas (biased by what I have read). When concentration becomes strong enough (access concentration) they disappear (for some time). Interestingly one becomes morally perfect in a Buddhist sense then (for that time). I haven't seen anyone recommend just thinking about them rationally. It was that relationship that was really doing the lifting, one way or the other, in personality change, not simple 'rationality.' [...] So if the hindrances above are deep, they cannot easily be dealt with by oneself, since the roots of the issues are unconscious, and we are structured so as to keep them that way... for the above reasons. We can't see our own blind spots. I think this view is very one sided. One point not mentioned is that a monastic life gives a very strict frame / timetable. Sitting/meditation/concentration is also not rationality. |
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Post by japhy on Jul 4, 2020 17:13:14 GMT -5
I could relate many more stories like this, but my guess is that too much stress, alone, is responsible for 70% of the mental problems that people experience. I am not sure if I would agree with this point either except if substance abuse is counted as stress. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 4, 2020 17:14:43 GMT -5
The 5 Buddhist hindrances that this monk mentions: sensual desire, ill will, dullness, restlessness, and indecision, are for many or most people not easily dealt with simply by thinking about them rationally and deciding to 'accept' and 'non-identify.' Arguably it only ever 'worked' because of an implicitly therapeutic relationship between the guru and the student in a monastic setting. Mostly I have seen the five hindrances mentioned with respect to the jhanas (biased by what I have read). When concentration becomes strong enough (access concentration) they disappear (for some time). Interestingly one becomes morally perfect in a Buddhist sense then (for that time). I haven't seen anyone recommend just thinking about them rationally. It's a chicken and egg situation. One can't 'attain' jhanas without concentration. The hindrance ARE hindrances to concentration. So you have to remove the hindrances at least in part to get the jhanas to remove more of the hindrances. What is it that would persuade someone to engage in monastic life in the first place, or to stick with it once entered? "Strict timetables" do nothing unless they are followed. If they are forced, they do nothing helpful. |
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Post by japhy on Jul 4, 2020 17:23:02 GMT -5
It's a chicken and egg situation. One can't 'attain' jhanas without concentration. The hindrance ARE hindrances to concentration. So you have to remove the hindrances at least in part to get the jhanas to remove more of the hindrances. You don't have to be free from the hindrances at all times.You don't have to be perfect to get somewhere. Strict timetables have helped me in a retreat setting. It's neither totally voluntary nor forced. It's more like you committed to doing something and you push through with others where you might give up alone. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 4, 2020 17:30:32 GMT -5
It's a chicken and egg situation. One can't 'attain' jhanas without concentration. The hindrance ARE hindrances to concentration. So you have to remove the hindrances at least in part to get the jhanas to remove more of the hindrances. You don't have to be free from the hindrances at all times.You don't have to be perfect to get somewhere. Well I agree. That's why I said "at least in part." The point is, however, that for most people, simply meditating is not enough. There is psychological work to be done, one way or another. The thicker the hindrances, the truer this is. Right, so you're pointing to the social aspect of the situation. Yes, this can be powerful. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 4, 2020 17:34:42 GMT -5
Because I'm skeptical of psyhoanalysis I might mention that there are dozens of mental problems "caused" by biochemical, physical, or lifestyle issues. A few things to consider: Mental institutions used to be filled with psychotic people who it was later learned had nothing wrong with them psychologically; they were simply deficient in vitamin B3. As soon as this was discovered, and patients were given B3, their psychoses came to an end. In one study it was found that regular aerobic exercise cured depression at the same rate as either medication or psychoanalysis. When my mother was young and dealing with 4 young children, she began to experience phobias and periods of depression. She went to her GP who told her to walk two miles everyday as a way to alleviate stress. The walking, alone, returned her to normal, and she walked regularly after that until she was over 90. I had a friend who at the age of 31 suddenly began suffering anxiety and panic attacks. He went to his GP who then sent him to a psychiatrist. My friend was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and had begun to develop phobias. The first question the doc asked him was, "How is your sex life?" My friend replied, "It couldn't be better." (haha) The doctor then asked him about his early childhood. My friend replied, "It couldn't have been better." The doctor then suggested that my friend was in denial. My friend grew suspicious at this response, and after leaving the doc's office went to a bookstore to read about mental illness. In one book he read about some Israelis who went on extreme diets and subsequently suffered various kinds of mental illness, including full-blown psychosis. That rang an alarm bell, and my friend realized that his lifestyle in the two months prior to the advent of panic attacks had been extreme. He had gone on an extreme diet and also begun an extreme exercise program in anticipation of a future mountain-climbing expedition. He had also been working more than usual in order to save money to pay for the expedition. He went back to see the psychiatrist one more time, but this time he felt no respect for the doctor and began to question why the doctor hadn't asked him about his lifestyle. The doctor diagnosed "resistance" and told my friend that he recommended long-term psychotherapy. My friend told me that he considered the doctor an idiot. As a result of his own self-diagnosis, my friend took a vacation from work, began taking vitamins, and stopped both his extreme diet and his extreme exercise regimen. He told me that he realized from reading the book on mental illness that he had wrecked his mental health by "burning the candle at both ends," and he told me that it took him almost a year of living a healthy lifestyle to fully recover from the damage he had physically done to himself. I could relate many more stories like this, but my guess is that too much stress, alone, is responsible for 70% of the mental problems that people experience. There may be a place for psychoanalysis, but from my POV it would only be as a last resort, and only after blood tests and lifestyle analysis had ruled out things such as anemia, vitamin deficiencies, and lifestyle issues such as "burning the candle from both ends." JMHO I also suspect that regular meditation might be just as efficacious as psychoanalysis for bringing past childhood issues to the surface for resolution. Interesting thoughts. There certainly is a place for diet changes, but over a century of scientific studies suggests a universal conclusion: that therapy most certainly has a positive effect overall that cannot simply be replicated with dietary changes. There is no real literature -- only anecdote -- that attests to the idea that vitamins or diet solve the majority of depression, anxiety, personality disorders, phobias, obsessions, compulsions, and on and on and on. Maybe a few cases here and there, but hardly the majority. Though people can of course persuade themselves of things via the placebo effect. Anyhow good diet itself is often not followed for unconscious reasons. Why is the candle being burned at both ends? Unconscious reasons. As far as regular meditation bringing childhood issues to the surface, there is no evidence for it being a substitute all by itself for therapy when there is any problem of any real degree of seriousness. Diet is only part of what I wrote about. Exercise and lifestyle were other aspects. My main point was that physical unhealth is often directly related to mental unhealth. For example, if one simply googles topics about exercise as a treatment for depression, numerous studies (including double blind studies) can be accessed that conclude exercise is equivalent in treatment effectiveness as either drugs or psychoanalysis. There are many reasons for this, but the subject is broad, and I don't have sufficient interest to write much more about it. People who are interested can do the research for themselves. Even if someone needed to resolve issues that seemed to stem from childhood trauma, they'll need good luck in finding effective psychoanalytic help. There are Freudians, Jungians, and thousands of other kinds of approaches utilizing a wide assortment of different therapeutic practices. In addition there are primal scream therapists, deep breathing therapists, rebirthing therapists, talk therapists, cognitive modification therapists, etc. etc. Unfortunately, people who are suffering from most of the common neuroses trust their physicians to send them to psychiatrists and psychologists who can "cure" them. Their physicians send them off to "head doctors" because they, themselves, don't have psychiatric training, and they assume (often incorrectly) that psychiatrists are the only doctors who will know how to resolve their patients' "sickness" or problems. My mother was lucky that her GP had enough common sense to realize that she needed some form of physical exercise to reduce the stress of dealing with four young children. If he had sent her to a shrink, she might have undergone needless talk therapy for countless years. Today, I suspect that she would have been prescribed an anti-depressant. I feel confident that walking two or three miles each day was a much healthier alternative.  |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 4, 2020 17:42:37 GMT -5
I could relate many more stories like this, but my guess is that too much stress, alone, is responsible for 70% of the mental problems that people experience. I am not sure if I would agree with this point either except if substance abuse is counted as stress. The body can be negatively stressed in countless different ways. Quite often substance abuse is a result of trying to reduce the effects of stress coming from another source. There can be financial stress, physical stress, lack of sleep stress, relationship stress, ad infinitum, and unless there is some way to alleviate stress (by exercise, etc), it will often affect one's mental health. I think I've read that anti-depressants are the most prescribed medications in the USA, and I suspect that there's a good reason for that. |
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Post by japhy on Jul 4, 2020 17:45:11 GMT -5
Well I agree. That's why I said "at least in part." The point is, however, that for most people, simply meditating is not enough. There is psychological work to be done, one way or another. The thicker the hindrances, the truer this is. Right, so you're pointing to the social aspect of the situation. Yes, this can be powerful. Some interesting questions to ponder might be: Can we really know what is useful in a general situation? Are the hindrances anything permanent/substantial? Do the hindrances even exist? Will a "person with lots of hindrances" "be hindered" at all times? In sleep? Directly after waking up? When not breathing? |
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Post by amit on Jul 5, 2020 5:59:31 GMT -5
Because I'm skeptical of psyhoanalysis I might mention that there are dozens of mental problems "caused" by biochemical, physical, or lifestyle issues. A few things to consider: Mental institutions used to be filled with psychotic people who it was later learned had nothing wrong with them psychologically; they were simply deficient in vitamin B3. As soon as this was discovered, and patients were given B3, their psychoses came to an end. In one study it was found that regular aerobic exercise cured depression at the same rate as either medication or psychoanalysis. When my mother was young and dealing with 4 young children, she began to experience phobias and periods of depression. She went to her GP who told her to walk two miles everyday as a way to alleviate stress. The walking, alone, returned her to normal, and she walked regularly after that until she was over 90. I had a friend who at the age of 31 suddenly began suffering anxiety and panic attacks. He went to his GP who then sent him to a psychiatrist. My friend was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and had begun to develop phobias. The first question the doc asked him was, "How is your sex life?" My friend replied, "It couldn't be better." (haha) The doctor then asked him about his early childhood. My friend replied, "It couldn't have been better." The doctor then suggested that my friend was in denial. My friend grew suspicious at this response, and after leaving the doc's office went to a bookstore to read about mental illness. In one book he read about some Israelis who went on extreme diets and subsequently suffered various kinds of mental illness, including full-blown psychosis. That rang an alarm bell, and my friend realized that his lifestyle in the two months prior to the advent of panic attacks had been extreme. He had gone on an extreme diet and also begun an extreme exercise program in anticipation of a future mountain-climbing expedition. He had also been working more than usual in order to save money to pay for the expedition. He went back to see the psychiatrist one more time, but this time he felt no respect for the doctor and began to question why the doctor hadn't asked him about his lifestyle. The doctor diagnosed "resistance" and told my friend that he recommended long-term psychotherapy. My friend told me that he considered the doctor an idiot. As a result of his own self-diagnosis, my friend took a vacation from work, began taking vitamins, and stopped both his extreme diet and his extreme exercise regimen. He told me that he realized from reading the book on mental illness that he had wrecked his mental health by "burning the candle at both ends," and he told me that it took him almost a year of living a healthy lifestyle to fully recover from the damage he had physically done to himself. I could relate many more stories like this, but my guess is that too much stress, alone, is responsible for 70% of the mental problems that people experience. There may be a place for psychoanalysis, but from my POV it would only be as a last resort, and only after blood tests and lifestyle analysis had ruled out things such as anemia, vitamin deficiencies, and lifestyle issues such as "burning the candle from both ends." JMHO I also suspect that regular meditation might be just as efficacious as psychoanalysis for bringing past childhood issues to the surface for resolution. I'm sure you are aware that a debate has been ragng for decades between nature and nurture in mental health. Laing (The Divided self) et al on the one hand and the medical model on the other. During my time as a social worker in 900 bed Victorian mental hosital I came to feel that the two were not mutually exclusive, although this was not the view of the medical model raher believing that it was useless if not damaging to talk about the phychosis with clients. So as usual when there is division, there is room for both bearing in mind the character of the clients involved without either excluding the other. |
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Post by inavalan on Jul 5, 2020 11:48:07 GMT -5
Because I'm skeptical of psyhoanalysis ... ... So as usual when there is division, there is room for both bearing in mind the character of the clients involved without either excluding the other. In general, I disagree with this position. Giving room (aka benefit of the doubt) to any argument means giving legitimacy to arguments that don't deserve it. I support everybody's right to their opinion, and to express / manifest it in a lawful, responsible and respectful way, but I don't respect all opinions. That would be ridiculous. |
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Post by amit on Jul 5, 2020 12:34:40 GMT -5
... So as usual when there is division, there is room for both bearing in mind the character of the clients involved without either excluding the other. In general, I disagree with this position. Giving room (aka benefit of the doubt) to any argument means giving legitimacy to arguments that don't deserve it. I support everybody's right to their opinion, and to express / manifest it in a lawful, responsible and respectful way, but I don't respect all opinions. That would be ridiculous. If you dont want discussions to descend into slagging match (a waste of everybody's time) then an acceptance that there may be different points of view is essential. Dealing with those differences in a respectful way will help the process of discussion. Its not about agreeing (although agreement may well occur), but rather about mutual understanding of what may well be different points of view. |
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Post by inavalan on Jul 5, 2020 14:11:21 GMT -5
In general, I disagree with this position. Giving room (aka benefit of the doubt) to any argument means giving legitimacy to arguments that don't deserve it. I support everybody's right to their opinion, and to express / manifest it in a lawful, responsible and respectful way, but I don't respect all opinions. That would be ridiculous. If you dont want discussions to descend into slagging match (a waste of everybody's time) then an acceptance that there may be different points of view is essential. Dealing with those differences in a respectful way will help the process of discussion. Its not about agreeing (although agreement may well occur), but rather about mutual understanding of what may well be different points of view. I just argued your statement, not your position which I don't know. To me, that argues that "as usual when there is division, there is room for both", and history shows that appeasement and consensus often created monsters and tragedies. In the best case kicked the can down the road, put fires out, while diluting individual responsibility. You come from your conditioning as social worker that had to deal with specific situations and goals, within a specific framework ... We have quite different examples of situations in our minds. Progress in sciences, arts, in human and natural life was never achieved through consensus. |
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