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Post by etolle on Jun 29, 2020 10:41:24 GMT -5
how would you explain the difference to someone who had no idea about either and was not aware that their beliefs were nothing more than conditioning?
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Post by amit on Jun 29, 2020 11:46:15 GMT -5
how would you explain the difference to someone who had no idea about either and was not aware that their beliefs were nothing more than conditioning? Both are subject to conditioning and assert conditions that enable them to be identified by whatever label (name) they adopt, so in that sense there is no difference. There is a clear difference however if any group reject the assertions of others as having no credability. This is usually a position adopted by traditional established groups, whether labelled as religions or not. |
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Post by etolle on Jun 29, 2020 12:00:26 GMT -5
so in your opinion,spirituality is about identifying with a label?....
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Post by laughter on Jun 29, 2020 12:31:44 GMT -5
how would you explain the difference to someone who had no idea about either and was not aware that their beliefs were nothing more than conditioning? So, if they have no idea about either they're not religious and don't consider themselves to be spiritual? Perhaps: appeal to the head by asking "what does truth mean to you?", and appeal to the heart by asking if they ever get a sense of awe or wonder about anything. Another question might be if they have any altruistic notions about other people or just everyone and everything, generally. I'd say, in those terms, spirituality is about truth, awe, wonder and a universal sort of love and compassion. For many people, spirituality does indeed involve belief, and I'd say religion is just organized, ritualized spirituality, typically associated with some ancient tradition. |
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Post by etolle on Jun 29, 2020 12:49:22 GMT -5
how would you explain the difference to someone who had no idea about either and was not aware that their beliefs were nothing more than conditioning? So, if they have no idea about either they're not religious and don't consider themselves to be spiritual? Perhaps: appeal to the head by asking "what does truth mean to you?", and appeal to the heart by asking if they ever get a sense of awe or wonder about anything. Another question might be if they have any altruistic notions about other people or just everyone and everything, generally. I'd say, in those terms, spirituality is about truth, awe, wonder and a universal sort of love and compassion. For many people, spirituality does indeed involve belief, and I'd say religion is just organized, ritualized spirituality, typically associated with some ancient tradition. thanks laughter,thats what I was lookin 4 |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jun 29, 2020 13:31:17 GMT -5
how would you explain the difference to someone who had no idea about either and was not aware that their beliefs were nothing more than conditioning? Religion tends to be more associated with institutions, organizations, communities, and rules and rituals for how to live life and get good things and avoid bad things. It often includes a complex cosmology for the how the world got to be the way it is. Spirituality is more about ultimate meaning and inner connection. It wants to go beyond conventions and actions to something eternal, deep, and free. They're often connected, as religion is often the shell that's been created to hold the truth of spirituality, and offer it to people step by step... many are not interested enough in the purely spiritual, but they can be lured in by the sense of security and control that religion provides. And then they eventually become curious about something more. But they can be disconnected, too. |
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Post by amit on Jun 30, 2020 4:16:14 GMT -5
so in your opinion,spirituality is about identifying with a label?.... |
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Post by amit on Jun 30, 2020 4:19:13 GMT -5
so in your opinion,spirituality is about identifying with a label?.... Yes each grouping calls itself a name (label) whether a religion or not, which defines its aims and objectives. |
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Post by etolle on Jun 30, 2020 6:11:08 GMT -5
Yes each grouping calls itself a name (label) whether a religion or not, which defines its aims and objectives. of course spirituality is just a word that is pointing to what cant be understood in words but can be known..im aware of that but I cant use those words with these folks. its alcoholics anonymous and im tryin to help them to realize the difference between how they were born and their conditioning. ie, our natural state and crap we have learned that we take to be the truth. |
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Post by amit on Jun 30, 2020 7:29:01 GMT -5
Yes each grouping calls itself a name (label) whether a religion or not, which defines its aims and objectives. of course spirituality is just a word that is pointing to what cant be understood in words but can be known..im aware of that but I cant use those words with these folks. its alcoholics anonymous and im tryin to help them to realize the difference between how they were born and their conditioning. ie, our natural state and crap we have learned that we take to be the truth. Mind has a way of hiding conditioning. We are lucky if we can discover our own, let alone deal with the conditioning of others. Luckily there are clues to be found about our own conditioning by observing the values and opinions we project onto others. Often a painful process. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 30, 2020 9:24:54 GMT -5
Yes each grouping calls itself a name (label) whether a religion or not, which defines its aims and objectives. of course spirituality is just a word that is pointing to what cant be understood in words but can be known..im aware of that but I cant use those words with these folks. its alcoholics anonymous and im tryin to help them to realize the difference between how they were born and their conditioning. ie, our natural state and crap we have learned that we take to be the truth. How to explain conditioning? One of the things I sometimes tell others is that at birth we are originally aware, wordless blank slates first and foremost, upon which conditioning is laid. By way of demonstration I say if you were born one day in New York to American parents and I took you that very same day and placed you with a French couple in Paris, instead of growing up speaking American, eating American and doing all things American and believing yourself to be American, you would grow up speaking French, eating French and doing all things French and absolutely believing yourself French. But then again, if instead of taking you to France, I took you to Borneo and placed you with a cannibal couple, you would grow up speaking cannibal, eating cannibal and doing all things cannibal and absolutely believing yourself to be cannibal. A few seem to get that who we think we are is a secondary conditioned layer imposed upon us based upon the circumstances of our birth and built upon our original aware, wordless state. Others who hear this think it quite silly and go get an hors d'oeuvre. :-) |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 30, 2020 13:32:21 GMT -5
of course spirituality is just a word that is pointing to what cant be understood in words but can be known..im aware of that but I cant use those words with these folks. its alcoholics anonymous and im tryin to help them to realize the difference between how they were born and their conditioning. ie, our natural state and crap we have learned that we take to be the truth. Mind has a way of hiding conditioning. We are lucky if we can discover our own, let alone deal with the conditioning of others. Luckily there are clues to be found about our own conditioning by observing the values and opinions we project onto others. Often a painful process. Most people on the planet, probably 95%+, don't recognize their self (ego) consists of conditioning. My Grandpa Thompson died when I was four. I do not remember him, I can't picture him. I remember myself with him. Most of my early memories are memories of being with him, events that he made happen. I could give you a dozen off the top of my head, and then a dozen more right after those. I had some memories I could never explain, but never asked my parents about. I figured two were just my imagination, but one was a fact. Where he died I knew there was a sand box and a swing set. And I knew where he died without anyone ever telling me, it was about a mile from our house, and his (he lived up a hill from me, about 100 yards through a field). I was with my Mother when Uncle Jerry told her "Bet, Daddy's dead", we were at a neighbor's house. But just a few years ago Mama told me I had been with Grandpa the day he died. He was picking apples, he had taken me with him. But a cousin of mine, Karen, who was one year older, begged to be with Grandpa, so she was taken and I was picked up. So that explains what I saw in my mind (still can see) and knowing where he died. I loved him dearly. I know ~I~ would have been a different person had he lived 10 more years (he was 64 when he died). But what I cannot say is whether my life would have turned out better or worse. ….Thinking over this question over the years, had he lived, I would have probably been more ~normal~, normal enough that there may not have been a spiritual search (I might have stayed stuck in the status quo). So, I would not trade who-I-am-today for anything. |
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Post by amit on Jun 30, 2020 15:30:07 GMT -5
Mind has a way of hiding conditioning. We are lucky if we can discover our own, let alone deal with the conditioning of others. Luckily there are clues to be found about our own conditioning by observing the values and opinions we project onto others. Often a painful process. Most people on the planet, probably 95%+, don't recognize their self (ego) consists of conditioning. My Grandpa Thompson died when I was four. I do not remember him, I can't picture him. I remember myself with him. Most of my early memories are memories of being with him, events that he made happen. I could give you a dozen off the top of my head, and then a dozen more right after those. I had some memories I could never explain, but never asked my parents about. I figured two were just my imagination, but one was a fact. Where he died I knew there was a sand box and a swing set. And I knew where he died without anyone ever telling me, it was about a mile from our house, and his (he lived up a hill from me, about 100 yards through a field). I was with my Mother when Uncle Jerry told her "Bet, Daddy's dead", we were at a neighbor's house. But just a few years ago Mama told me I had been with Grandpa the day he died. He was picking apples, he had taken me with him. But a cousin of mine, Karen, who was one year older, begged to be with Grandpa, so she was taken and I was picked up. So that explains what I saw in my mind (still can see) and knowing where he died. I loved him dearly. I know ~I~ would have been a different person had he lived 10 more years (he was 64 when he died). But what I cannot say is whether my life would have turned out better or worse. ….Thinking over this question over the years, had he lived, I would have probably been more ~normal~, normal enough that there may not have been a spiritual search (I might have stayed stuck in the status quo). So, I would not trade who-I-am-today for anything. It is usually pretty clear what values/opinions are conditioned because we find it difficult if others challenge them. A lso usually what we cant tolerate in others are things we have been conditioned to believe are unacceptable in ourselves (projection/introjection). So there are some clues there but it can still be a very difficult process and some do years of therapy/practise and are still not confident that they have got to the bottom of it. Some say its best not to bother and rely of the magic of vibrational resonance instead to see what one follows. |
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