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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 18, 2020 16:14:28 GMT -5
100,000 years ago there was only the natural world, say 98% natural world, 2% psychological. Man (and woman) existed mostly in survival mode, dealt mostly with what is, present problems. Man lived in caves, ate what could be gathered and hunted. There was basically one circuit in the brain, neural patterns concerning what is. There was basically one movement in life, the movement of what is.
Man began to learn to abstract, that is, develop language. So the present expanded into the future through language, the past as memory. So over the centuries the psychology of individuals developed further, and instead of just protecting the body, a self as memory further developed and eventually became more important that the body, and needed to be protected. So through the years and centuries another artificial circuitry developed in the brain, a second circuitry. And as this second circuitry developed and became important, collectively it became important, and family groups and groups of tribes became regions and countries. And these existed to defend an ideology, artificial constructs. So there were individuals within families within groups within tribes within cities within regions within countries. This is basically our world today.
So today for most people two types of circuitry exists in the brain, the brain circuitry of physical survival and physical necessity, and a second circuitry, the psychological self devoted to the safety and survival of the psychological self. This second circuitry is the source and reason for discordance, disharmony, division, selfishness, bigotry, racism and war.
Memory is not inherently bad. Only through memory does culture exist. Through language and memory we learned to build structures to live in besides caves. Through language and memory we learned to control the environment through better ways to heat our living structures, and make them cool. We learned to preserve food through refrigeration. So these things can belong to circuitry one, along with automobiles, trains and airplanes. These can belong to the natural movement of the natural world.
But when there are children bullied in school and on the playground, this comes out of an unnatural circuitry. There are battles in sports, but at the end the victor and loser can shake hands and sometimes even hug. In knock-down-drag-out MMA battles the vanquished is knocked out or taps out, and the winner knows the battle is over, and ceases aggression, immediately. But when one human being rolls a person, already subdued by handcuffs, on to their stomach and holds their knee on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, with the help of two other people, this is circuitry two, the self perpetuating a crime against humanity. This is not the natural movement of the universe. When one person shoots another person running from them over 15 feet away, twice in the back, this is not a natural movement of the universe. This is circuitry two, a distorted self committing a travesty. Both concern situations which primarily end the way they do because of the color of the skin of each party. In both these cases, a warped psychology puts the perpetrator in a 98% unnatural psychology, circuitry two. Laws and guidelines must necessarily be changed (as is already happening in some cities).
Most of us here probably live in a very real way protected lives. Most of us here probably do not have to think as we walk out the door, if I am not careful how I act, I could die today. Coronavirus has somewhat altered this, maybe it's a good thing that all of us have to think about protecting the body every day, at least to some extent.
In the US, we are in a very real sense approaching a perfect storm. Politically, with the worst President in history coming up for reelection, Coronavirus, and Black Lives Matter, it seems we are reaching a pivotal point in history, A Perfect Storm. Only the two movements, a natural movement and an unnatural movement, explain two of the three, and the faulty approach and failures to defend against the Coronavirus can also be blamed on a nasty psychology of one person, POTUS.
Most people with a horribly warped psychology, enough to abuse others, were abused a children. See the works of Alice Miller.
This is the world we live in, today, in the US anyway.
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Post by amit on Jun 19, 2020 7:02:30 GMT -5
100,000 years ago there was only the natural world, say 98% natural world, 2% psychological. Man (and woman) existed mostly in survival mode, dealt mostly with what is, present problems. Man lived in caves, ate what could be gathered and hunted. There was basically one circuit in the brain, neural patterns concerning what is. There was basically one movement in life, the movement of what is. Man began to learn to abstract, that is, develop language. So the present expanded into the future through language, the past as memory. So over the centuries the psychology of individuals developed further, and instead of just protecting the body, a self as memory further developed and eventually became more important that the body, and needed to be protected. So through the years and centuries another artificial circuitry developed in the brain, a second circuitry. And as this second circuitry developed and became important, collectively it became important, and family groups and groups of tribes became regions and countries. And these existed to defend an ideology, artificial constructs. So there were individuals within families within groups within tribes within cities within regions within countries. This is basically our world today. So today for most people two types of circuitry exists in the brain, the brain circuitry of physical survival and physical necessity, and a second circuitry, the psychological self devoted to the safety and survival of the psychological self. This second circuitry is the source and reason for discordance, disharmony, division, selfishness, bigotry, racism and war. Memory is not inherently bad. Only through memory does culture exist. Through language and memory we learned to build structures to live in besides caves. Through language and memory we learned to control the environment through better ways to heat our living structures, and make them cool. We learned to preserve food through refrigeration. So these things can belong to circuitry one, along with automobiles, trains and airplanes. These can belong to the natural movement of the natural world. But when there are children bullied in school and on the playground, this comes out of an unnatural circuitry. There are battles in sports, but at the end the victor and loser can shake hands and sometimes even hug. In knock-down-drag-out MMA battles the vanquished is knocked out or taps out, and the winner knows the battle is over, and ceases aggression, immediately. But when one human being rolls a person, already subdued by handcuffs, on to their stomach and holds their knee on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, with the help of two other people, this is circuitry two, the self perpetuating a crime against humanity. This is not the natural movement of the universe. When one person shoots another person running from them over 15 feet away, twice in the back, this is not a natural movement of the universe. This is circuitry two, a distorted self committing a travesty. Both concern situations which primarily end the way they do because of the color of the skin of each party. In both these cases, a warped psychology puts the perpetrator in a 98% unnatural psychology, circuitry two. Laws and guidelines must necessarily be changed (as is already happening in some cities). Most of us here probably live in a very real way protected lives. Most of us here probably do not have to think as we walk out the door, if I am not careful how I act, I could die today. Coronavirus has somewhat altered this, maybe it's a good thing that all of us have to think about protecting the body every day, at least to some extent. In the US, we are in a very real sense approaching a perfect storm. Politically, with the worst President in history coming up for reelection, Coronavirus, and Black Lives Matter, it seems we are reaching a pivotal point in history, A Perfect Storm. Only the two movements, a natural movement and an unnatural movement, explain two of the three, and the faulty approach and failures to defend against the Coronavirus can also be blamed on a nasty psychology of one person, POTUS. Most people with a horribly warped psychology, enough to abuse others, were abused a children. See the works of Alice Miller. This is the world we live in, today, in the US anyway. Maybe something like you describe would, on the face of it, appear to be the case, but from a nondual perspective all the states you mention are already completely Oneness manifest, both sides of every conflict, both abuser and abused, each the other and the One Love in action , dreaming difference where there is no difference whatsoever. Resonance with the nondual concept as usual removes the problem, if only we could stop continually struggling to eiminate the things we regard as problematic, as if that would somehow connect us more to Oneness which is already totally the states we try to get rid of.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 19, 2020 11:45:18 GMT -5
100,000 years ago there was only the natural world, say 98% natural world, 2% psychological. Man (and woman) existed mostly in survival mode, dealt mostly with what is, present problems. Man lived in caves, ate what could be gathered and hunted. There was basically one circuit in the brain, neural patterns concerning what is. There was basically one movement in life, the movement of what is. Man began to learn to abstract, that is, develop language. So the present expanded into the future through language, the past as memory. So over the centuries the psychology of individuals developed further, and instead of just protecting the body, a self as memory further developed and eventually became more important that the body, and needed to be protected. So through the years and centuries another artificial circuitry developed in the brain, a second circuitry. And as this second circuitry developed and became important, collectively it became important, and family groups and groups of tribes became regions and countries. And these existed to defend an ideology, artificial constructs. So there were individuals within families within groups within tribes within cities within regions within countries. This is basically our world today. So today for most people two types of circuitry exists in the brain, the brain circuitry of physical survival and physical necessity, and a second circuitry, the psychological self devoted to the safety and survival of the psychological self. This second circuitry is the source and reason for discordance, disharmony, division, selfishness, bigotry, racism and war. Memory is not inherently bad. Only through memory does culture exist. Through language and memory we learned to build structures to live in besides caves. Through language and memory we learned to control the environment through better ways to heat our living structures, and make them cool. We learned to preserve food through refrigeration. So these things can belong to circuitry one, along with automobiles, trains and airplanes. These can belong to the natural movement of the natural world. But when there are children bullied in school and on the playground, this comes out of an unnatural circuitry. There are battles in sports, but at the end the victor and loser can shake hands and sometimes even hug. In knock-down-drag-out MMA battles the vanquished is knocked out or taps out, and the winner knows the battle is over, and ceases aggression, immediately. But when one human being rolls a person, already subdued by handcuffs, on to their stomach and holds their knee on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, with the help of two other people, this is circuitry two, the self perpetuating a crime against humanity. This is not the natural movement of the universe. When one person shoots another person running from them over 15 feet away, twice in the back, this is not a natural movement of the universe. This is circuitry two, a distorted self committing a travesty. Both concern situations which primarily end the way they do because of the color of the skin of each party. In both these cases, a warped psychology puts the perpetrator in a 98% unnatural psychology, circuitry two. Laws and guidelines must necessarily be changed (as is already happening in some cities). Most of us here probably live in a very real way protected lives. Most of us here probably do not have to think as we walk out the door, if I am not careful how I act, I could die today. Coronavirus has somewhat altered this, maybe it's a good thing that all of us have to think about protecting the body every day, at least to some extent. In the US, we are in a very real sense approaching a perfect storm. Politically, with the worst President in history coming up for reelection, Coronavirus, and Black Lives Matter, it seems we are reaching a pivotal point in history, A Perfect Storm. Only the two movements, a natural movement and an unnatural movement, explain two of the three, and the faulty approach and failures to defend against the Coronavirus can also be blamed on a nasty psychology of one person, POTUS. Most people with a horribly warped psychology, enough to abuse others, were abused a children. See the works of Alice Miller. This is the world we live in, today, in the US anyway. Maybe something like you describe would, on the face of it, appear to be the case, but from a nondual perspective all the states you mention are already completely Oneness manifest, both sides of every conflict, both abuser and abused, each the other and the One Love in action , dreaming difference where there is no difference whatsoever. Resonance with the nondual concept as usual removes the problem, if only we could stop continually struggling to eiminate the things we regard as problematic, as if that would somehow connect us more to Oneness which is already totally the states we try to get rid of. I didn't say otherwise.
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Post by amit on Jun 19, 2020 12:27:37 GMT -5
Maybe something like you describe would, on the face of it, appear to be the case, but from a nondual perspective all the states you mention are already completely Oneness manifest, both sides of every conflict, both abuser and abused, each the other and the One Love in action , dreaming difference where there is no difference whatsoever. Resonance with the nondual concept as usual removes the problem, if only we could stop continually struggling to eiminate the things we regard as problematic, as if that would somehow connect us more to Oneness which is already totally the states we try to get rid of. I didn't say otherwise. You described states of suffering that you regarded as problematic. From a nondual perspective those states are already Oneness manifest so change will not produce any more or less Oneness which is already totally all states.
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Post by laughter on Jun 19, 2020 13:47:24 GMT -5
You described states of suffering that you regarded as problematic. From a nondual perspective those states are already Oneness manifest so change will not produce any more or less Oneness which is already totally all states. And this has a material analog to it: a philosophical understanding expressed by Hamlet's monologue centered on "to be, or not to be". On one hand, it's clear that politics and political action are never not an endless cycle of karma, with today's righteous, group-think consensus never not tomorrow's baleful history lesson. On one hand, to take up arms is always to be the relative source of someone else's suffering, but, on the other hand, as Krshna essentially told Arjuna, these relative causes are only apparent, and as a more recent adage goes, all it takes for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing. It's possible to gain a measure of clarity on all of this, even as a person mistakenly assuming they are a person in the world. And, an existential realization that puts an end to that mistake is also the end of any matter of degree as to this clarity. On one hand, Hamlet echo's the Tao with "there is no good nor bad, but that thinking makes it so", and on the other hand, we all have an innate ability to recognize genuine human virtue, as it's expressed, situationally, and in the moment. It is only our conditioned minds that can obscure that ability, and this embodied understanding of the nuances of how karma manifests and cycles need not impede direct, and immediate action. The degree of absence of impediment depends on how well this understanding is embodied. Existential clarity has matters of degree that are transcended by the realization of the falseness of the person as existentially separate from what they perceive they are not. But, the embodiment of that realization is always a matter of conditions and conditioning, and will remain relevant for as long as there's a body, drawing breath, allowing for a unique perspective of mind.
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Post by amit on Jun 19, 2020 14:39:12 GMT -5
You described states of suffering that you regarded as problematic. From a nondual perspective those states are already Oneness manifest so change will not produce any more or less Oneness which is already totally all states. And this has a material analog to it: a philosophical understanding expressed by Hamlet's monologue centered on "to be, or not to be". On one hand, it's clear that politics and political action are never not an endless cycle of karma, with today's righteous, group-think consensus never not tomorrow's baleful history lesson. On one hand, to take up arms is always to be the relative source of someone else's suffering, but, on the other hand, as Krshna essentially told Arjuna, these relative causes are only apparent, and as a more recent adage goes, all it takes for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing. It's possible to gain a measure of clarity on all of this, even as a person mistakenly assuming they are a person in the world. And, an existential realization that puts an end to that mistake is also the end of any matter of degree as to this clarity. On one hand, Hamlet echo's the Tao with "there is no good nor bad, but that thinking makes it so", and on the other hand, we all have an innate ability to recognize genuine human virtue, as it's expressed, situationally, and in the moment. It is only our conditioned minds that can obscure that ability, and this embodied understanding of the nuances of how karma manifests and cycles need not impede direct, and immediate action. The degree of absence of impediment depends on how well this understanding is embodied. Existential clarity has matters of degree that are transcended by the realization of the falseness of the person as existentially separate from what they perceive they are not. But, the embodiment of that realization is always a matter of conditions and conditioning, and will remain relevant for as long as there's a body, drawing breath, allowing for a unique perspective of mind. If the concern is the end of the search and Nonduality resonantes as the solution, after the resonance there may indeed be, and usually is a struggle about how the terrible abuse that is apparent, can be Oneness manifest. This often includes issues like good men doing nothing. Apart from this, at least with the folk I know, the other considerations you mention do not come up. Suffering is the main issue to be incorporated as Oneness manifest. Once this is done, there is consolidation of the resonance. This has always been the outcome of the process of consolidation as the resonance appears to be the head in the Tiger's mouth. No escape. It seems that this event does not prevent folk being activists in various causes. It is accepted that Oneness is suffering manifest, and both abuser and abused, without necessarily ending ones concern which is of course also seen as Oneness manifest. Its not about making sense of why Oneness is both sides of all issues, but simply seeing and accepting that Oneness as all.
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Post by inavalan on Jun 19, 2020 15:35:37 GMT -5
And this has a material analog to it: a philosophical understanding expressed by Hamlet's monologue centered on "to be, or not to be". On one hand, it's clear that politics and political action are never not an endless cycle of karma, with today's righteous, group-think consensus never not tomorrow's baleful history lesson. On one hand, to take up arms is always to be the relative source of someone else's suffering, but, on the other hand, as Krshna essentially told Arjuna, these relative causes are only apparent, and as a more recent adage goes, all it takes for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing. It's possible to gain a measure of clarity on all of this, even as a person mistakenly assuming they are a person in the world. And, an existential realization that puts an end to that mistake is also the end of any matter of degree as to this clarity. On one hand, Hamlet echo's the Tao with "there is no good nor bad, but that thinking makes it so", and on the other hand, we all have an innate ability to recognize genuine human virtue, as it's expressed, situationally, and in the moment. It is only our conditioned minds that can obscure that ability, and this embodied understanding of the nuances of how karma manifests and cycles need not impede direct, and immediate action. The degree of absence of impediment depends on how well this understanding is embodied. Existential clarity has matters of degree that are transcended by the realization of the falseness of the person as existentially separate from what they perceive they are not. But, the embodiment of that realization is always a matter of conditions and conditioning, and will remain relevant for as long as there's a body, drawing breath, allowing for a unique perspective of mind. If the concern is the end of the search and Nonduality resonantes as the solution, after the resonance there may indeed be, and usually is a struggle about how the terrible abuse that is apparent, can be Oneness manifest. This often includes issues like good men doing nothing. Apart from this, at least with the folk I know, the other considerations you mention do not come up. Suffering is the main issue to be incorporated as Oneness manifest. Once this is done, there is consolidation of the resonance. This has always been the outcome of the process of consolidation as the resonance appears to be the head in the Tiger's mouth. No escape. It seems that this event does not prevent folk being activists in various causes. It is accepted that Oneness is suffering manifest, and both abuser and abused, without necessarily ending ones concern which is of course also seen as Oneness manifest. Its not about making sense of why Oneness is both sides of all issues, but simply seeing and accepting that Oneness as all. I'm new to this kind of argumentation, and for now I don't see its "practicality", which might be a shunned concept here (?), but "good men" means nothing, does it? Everybody is "good man" in his system, and there is no credible absolute reference. For example, to me "activist" is a four letter word / person. My credo is "always do what you think is right".
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Post by laughter on Jun 19, 2020 20:22:00 GMT -5
And this has a material analog to it: a philosophical understanding expressed by Hamlet's monologue centered on "to be, or not to be". On one hand, it's clear that politics and political action are never not an endless cycle of karma, with today's righteous, group-think consensus never not tomorrow's baleful history lesson. On one hand, to take up arms is always to be the relative source of someone else's suffering, but, on the other hand, as Krshna essentially told Arjuna, these relative causes are only apparent, and as a more recent adage goes, all it takes for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing. It's possible to gain a measure of clarity on all of this, even as a person mistakenly assuming they are a person in the world. And, an existential realization that puts an end to that mistake is also the end of any matter of degree as to this clarity. On one hand, Hamlet echo's the Tao with "there is no good nor bad, but that thinking makes it so", and on the other hand, we all have an innate ability to recognize genuine human virtue, as it's expressed, situationally, and in the moment. It is only our conditioned minds that can obscure that ability, and this embodied understanding of the nuances of how karma manifests and cycles need not impede direct, and immediate action. The degree of absence of impediment depends on how well this understanding is embodied. Existential clarity has matters of degree that are transcended by the realization of the falseness of the person as existentially separate from what they perceive they are not. But, the embodiment of that realization is always a matter of conditions and conditioning, and will remain relevant for as long as there's a body, drawing breath, allowing for a unique perspective of mind. If the concern is the end of the search and Nonduality resonantes as the solution, after the resonance there may indeed be, and usually is a struggle about how the terrible abuse that is apparent, can be Oneness manifest. This often includes issues like good men doing nothing. Apart from this, at least with the folk I know, the other considerations you mention do not come up. Suffering is the main issue to be incorporated as Oneness manifest. Once this is done, there is consolidation of the resonance. This has always been the outcome of the process of consolidation as the resonance appears to be the head in the Tiger's mouth. No escape. It seems that this event does not prevent folk being activists in various causes. It is accepted that Oneness is suffering manifest, and both abuser and abused, without necessarily ending ones concern which is of course also seen as Oneness manifest. Its not about making sense of why Oneness is both sides of all issues, but simply seeing and accepting that Oneness as all. It's an amusing tautology that I can't see my own blind spots, and I only note that to be clear that I don't assume otherwise in writing what comes next. That said, there is no political cause that isn't, to some degree and structure, a form of mass hypnosis, and another insight about how form manifests is that when one takes up arms, one inevitably becomes what one is fighting against. So, what the OP evokes for me is a line of advice that I wish I could give to anyone interested in the politics of these interesting times. It's advice that's quite antithetical to any direct search for the existential truth, but, nontheless, I think timely: If you don't gain control of your own emotions, someone else, most surely will.
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Post by laughter on Jun 19, 2020 20:26:09 GMT -5
If the concern is the end of the search and Nonduality resonantes as the solution, after the resonance there may indeed be, and usually is a struggle about how the terrible abuse that is apparent, can be Oneness manifest. This often includes issues like good men doing nothing. Apart from this, at least with the folk I know, the other considerations you mention do not come up. Suffering is the main issue to be incorporated as Oneness manifest. Once this is done, there is consolidation of the resonance. This has always been the outcome of the process of consolidation as the resonance appears to be the head in the Tiger's mouth. No escape. It seems that this event does not prevent folk being activists in various causes. It is accepted that Oneness is suffering manifest, and both abuser and abused, without necessarily ending ones concern which is of course also seen as Oneness manifest. Its not about making sense of why Oneness is both sides of all issues, but simply seeing and accepting that Oneness as all. I'm new to this kind of argumentation, and for now I don't see its "practicality", which might be a shunned concept here (?), but "good men" means nothing, does it? Everybody is "good man" in his system, and there is no credible absolute reference. For example, to me "activist" is a four letter word / person. My credo is "always do what you think is right". Yes, most definitely, there is no credible absolute reference. In intellectual terms, the concept of "good/bad" man is ultimately meaningless. It's not meant to advocate any particular system of morality or, an argument for amorality. The context of offering it was the dilemma of Hamlet or Arjuna, and a thought that is for me evocative of Zen influence: "virtue" can manifest, situationally, in the moment. We all have the innate capacity to recognize this "virtue", as it's happening, and it's only ever our conditioned minds, filtered by intellect and emotions, that can obscure that capacity.
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Post by inavalan on Jun 20, 2020 1:37:55 GMT -5
I'm new to this kind of argumentation, and for now I don't see its "practicality", which might be a shunned concept here (?), but "good men" means nothing, does it? Everybody is "good man" in his system, and there is no credible absolute reference. For example, to me "activist" is a four letter word / person. My credo is "always do what you think is right". Yes, most definitely, there is no credible absolute reference. In intellectual terms, the concept of "good/bad" man is ultimately meaningless. It's not meant to advocate any particular system of morality or, an argument for amorality. The context of offering it was the dilemma of Hamlet or Arjuna, and a thought that is for me evocative of Zen influence: "virtue" can manifest, situationally, in the moment. We all have the innate capacity to recognize this "virtue", as it's happening, and it's only ever our conditioned minds, filtered by intellect and emotions, that can obscure that capacity. I understand that you refer to a "virtue" that is an absolute something, that everybody has an innate capacity to perceive that absolute, but the perception is distorted by mind conditioning, the limited intellect, and emotions. Could you give an example of such an absolute "virtue"? Nothing in this physical universe seems to fit that concept.
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Post by amit on Jun 20, 2020 4:28:19 GMT -5
If the concern is the end of the search and Nonduality resonantes as the solution, after the resonance there may indeed be, and usually is a struggle about how the terrible abuse that is apparent, can be Oneness manifest. This often includes issues like good men doing nothing. Apart from this, at least with the folk I know, the other considerations you mention do not come up. Suffering is the main issue to be incorporated as Oneness manifest. Once this is done, there is consolidation of the resonance. This has always been the outcome of the process of consolidation as the resonance appears to be the head in the Tiger's mouth. No escape. It seems that this event does not prevent folk being activists in various causes. It is accepted that Oneness is suffering manifest, and both abuser and abused, without necessarily ending ones concern which is of course also seen as Oneness manifest. Its not about making sense of why Oneness is both sides of all issues, but simply seeing and accepting that Oneness as all. It's an amusing tautology that I can't see my own blind spots, and I only note that to be clear that I don't assume otherwise in writing what comes next. That said, there is no political cause that isn't, to some degree and structure, a form of mass hypnosis, and another insight about how form manifests is that when one takes up arms, one inevitably becomes what one is fighting against. So, what the OP evokes for me is a line of advice that I wish I could give to anyone interested in the politics of these interesting times. It's advice that's quite antithetical to any direct search for the existential truth, but, nontheless, I think timely: If you don't gain control of your own emotions, someone else, most surely will. Yes control, if not just to stay out of prison or worse:) but not the blind spot of denial. There is a balance to be reached so one does not disappear as an open relating person sharing one's emotions.
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Post by laughter on Jun 20, 2020 10:42:57 GMT -5
Yes, most definitely, there is no credible absolute reference. In intellectual terms, the concept of "good/bad" man is ultimately meaningless. It's not meant to advocate any particular system of morality or, an argument for amorality. The context of offering it was the dilemma of Hamlet or Arjuna, and a thought that is for me evocative of Zen influence: "virtue" can manifest, situationally, in the moment. We all have the innate capacity to recognize this "virtue", as it's happening, and it's only ever our conditioned minds, filtered by intellect and emotions, that can obscure that capacity. I understand that you refer to a "virtue" that is an absolute something, that everybody has an innate capacity to perceive that absolute, but the perception is distorted by mind conditioning, the limited intellect, and emotions. Could you give an example of such an absolute "virtue"? Nothing in this physical universe seems to fit that concept. Sorry for not being clearerer. I can't give you an example of an absolute virtue, as it manifests situationally, in the moment. There's a Zen story/joke that goes like this. A Zen master, a priest, a nihilist, a rabbi and a scientist walk into a bar. It's empty except for a thug and a diminutive woman just old enough to be there, and he's beating on her and tugging at her purse. The rabbi starts yelling "Shame! Shame!", the nihilist sits down at the bar and wonders where the bartender is, the priest starts saying a prayer of forgiveness, the Zen master knocks the thug on his a$s, as the scientist pulls out her smart phone and dials 911. The story is to demonstrate the difference between action that's filtered through the conditioned, thinking/emotional mind and ... not. We can discern that the notion of human virtue is woven into the fabric of the story, as a premise, but perhaps it might help illustrate how this notion of virtuous immediate action might apply to more morally ambiguous situations. But the illustration here is only an appeal to intuition, as the efficacy it dissolves by any analysis. While I have to use intellect to set-things up, it's not useful beyond that.
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Post by laughter on Jun 20, 2020 10:49:48 GMT -5
It's an amusing tautology that I can't see my own blind spots, and I only note that to be clear that I don't assume otherwise in writing what comes next. That said, there is no political cause that isn't, to some degree and structure, a form of mass hypnosis, and another insight about how form manifests is that when one takes up arms, one inevitably becomes what one is fighting against. So, what the OP evokes for me is a line of advice that I wish I could give to anyone interested in the politics of these interesting times. It's advice that's quite antithetical to any direct search for the existential truth, but, nontheless, I think timely: If you don't gain control of your own emotions, someone else, most surely will. Yes control, if not just to stay out of prison or worse:) but not the blind spot of denial. There is a balance to be reached so one does not disappear as an open relating person sharing one's emotions. yes, and the distinction between a complete and an incomplete existential realization can be thought of in terms of this need for balance. For a conventionally conditioned person, controlled emotions eventually lead to some sort of repression. It's a potentially deep, relative topic of psychology and physiology as to the nature of the cycles and how that can manifest, but all that is beside the point, which is that they won't apply in the same way, if the realization is complete.
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Post by amit on Jun 20, 2020 11:24:10 GMT -5
Yes control, if not just to stay out of prison or worse:) but not the blind spot of denial. There is a balance to be reached so one does not disappear as an open relating person sharing one's emotions. yes, and the distinction between a complete and an incomplete existential realization can be thought of in terms of this need for balance. For a conventionally conditioned person, controlled emotions eventually lead to some sort of repression. It's a potentially deep, relative topic of psychology and physiology as to the nature of the cycles and how that can manifest, but all that is beside the point, which is that they won't apply in the same way, if the realization is complete. Yes. Understood. Thanks.
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Post by amit on Jun 20, 2020 11:32:52 GMT -5
If the concern is the end of the search and Nonduality resonantes as the solution, after the resonance there may indeed be, and usually is a struggle about how the terrible abuse that is apparent, can be Oneness manifest. This often includes issues like good men doing nothing. Apart from this, at least with the folk I know, the other considerations you mention do not come up. Suffering is the main issue to be incorporated as Oneness manifest. Once this is done, there is consolidation of the resonance. This has always been the outcome of the process of consolidation as the resonance appears to be the head in the Tiger's mouth. No escape. It seems that this event does not prevent folk being activists in various causes. It is accepted that Oneness is suffering manifest, and both abuser and abused, without necessarily ending ones concern which is of course also seen as Oneness manifest. Its not about making sense of why Oneness is both sides of all issues, but simply seeing and accepting that Oneness as all. I'm new to this kind of argumentation, and for now I don't see its "practicality", which might be a shunned concept here (?), but "good men" means nothing, does it? Everybody is "good man" in his system, and there is no credible absolute reference. For example, to me "activist" is a four letter word / person. My credo is "always do what you think is right" From some nondual perspectives, there is no separate person so noone making decisions. It is always Oneness masquerading as the appearance of a separate person. If this resonates, there is also noone to become enlightened, as the apparent person is already Oneness so cannot become what already is, and the search ends. This does not have to be realized for the same reason, because it is already Oneness not realizing!
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