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Post by andrew on May 13, 2020 3:52:16 GMT -5
<snip/> So what really is the meaning of touching the door frame? It's a reminder to be "choicelessly aware". Do you have reminders to be choicelessly aware? Then it's not choiceless observation, is it. Be honest, throughout the day, how often are you choicelessly aware? If not very often, then yes, you can call that choiceless observation. But if you say: I am choicelessly aware the majority of the time, I will say without reservation, that's just not true. <snip/> If you remember, later, Oh, I passed through that door and didn't touch the frame, that, in and of itself, right then, can yes, be a reminder (to be "choicelessly aware", that is, "to bring about some particular state of mind"). Right, when you remember then you've come back to yourself. But it's not a choice to remember, it just pops into one's head. The train of thought finally arrives at its destination and the passenger debarks. It came to me yesterday that this is why we have these stories of monks hearing a drop of water on bamboo and gaining enlightenment - that's all it took to bring them back to themselves for that final time. Or perhaps not final, who knows. It's the human condition to get distracted. How often am I aware, through choice or choicelessly? The smallest fraction of a sliver. Five mins absolute tops, on a good day (outside of meditation time). I wonder if it's actually tiring something out in some way - it feels like a muscle to exercise. What might be interesting is that the choice - if it exists at all - does not exist in that moment. It exists in the previous instance of awareness - however many hours or days ago that might have been. We set alarm clocks when we are awake, not during our sleep. My alarm clock keeps failing to go off. Very unreliable alarm clock. Or I sleep through it. Or I wake up briefly and fall asleep before I walk through the next door. And it feels like such a small carriage to be in, that train of thought, so constricting compared to the open expanse of awareness. A bubble reflecting in on itself. A scene from Jim Henson's 1986 film The Labyrinth came to mind, where Sarah sees a bubble then suddenly she's in the bubble and it takes some time for her to realise that her situation is something to escape from. it's not easy to maintain because our action/choices reflect our values, and quite often there are little 'battles' playing out within our value system, and this is reflected and expressed in our mind as thought. To give one tiny example, my wife went into a store last night and wrestled internally for a few moments as to wear a mask or not. And I just experienced it fleetingly as i decided whether to write this or not. In truth, what our being seeks is to simply love and enjoy, and whilst this is principally an internal job, the external isn't wholly irrelevant. So the way I see it, your practice is definitely a good one, in the sense that ultimately you will likely be more usefully sensitive, perceptive, intuitive (and practically, it's good for the brain)...but I wouldn't see it as a 'end state', or something to try and achieve 'all the time'. Realistically, you are a westerner, with material concerns, family, bills to pay etc. You aren't a buddhist monk whose value system (and life) can be orientated wholly around that state... your mind and life is a westerner's mind. I guess what i would suggest is to be gentle and forgiving of self, while doing the practice. Best wishes, and hi to folks here |
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Post by laughter on May 13, 2020 7:08:56 GMT -5
Right, when you remember then you've come back to yourself. But it's not a choice to remember, it just pops into one's head. The train of thought finally arrives at its destination and the passenger debarks. It came to me yesterday that this is why we have these stories of monks hearing a drop of water on bamboo and gaining enlightenment - that's all it took to bring them back to themselves for that final time. Or perhaps not final, who knows. It's the human condition to get distracted. How often am I aware, through choice or choicelessly? The smallest fraction of a sliver. Five mins absolute tops, on a good day (outside of meditation time). I wonder if it's actually tiring something out in some way - it feels like a muscle to exercise. What might be interesting is that the choice - if it exists at all - does not exist in that moment. It exists in the previous instance of awareness - however many hours or days ago that might have been. We set alarm clocks when we are awake, not during our sleep. My alarm clock keeps failing to go off. Very unreliable alarm clock. Or I sleep through it. Or I wake up briefly and fall asleep before I walk through the next door. And it feels like such a small carriage to be in, that train of thought, so constricting compared to the open expanse of awareness. A bubble reflecting in on itself. A scene from Jim Henson's 1986 film The Labyrinth came to mind, where Sarah sees a bubble then suddenly she's in the bubble and it takes some time for her to realise that her situation is something to escape from. it's not easy to maintain because our action/choices reflect our values, and quite often there are little 'battles' playing out within our value system, and this is reflected and expressed in our mind as thought. To give one tiny example, my wife went into a store last night and wrestled internally for a few moments as to wear a mask or not. And I just experienced it fleetingly as i decided whether to write this or not. In truth, what our being seeks is to simply love and enjoy, and whilst this is principally an internal job, the external isn't wholly irrelevant. So the way I see it, your practice is definitely a good one, in the sense that ultimately you will likely be more usefully sensitive, perceptive, intuitive (and practically, it's good for the brain)...but I wouldn't see it as a 'end state', or something to try and achieve 'all the time'. Realistically, you are a westerner, with material concerns, family, bills to pay etc. You aren't a buddhist monk whose value system (and life) can be orientated wholly around that state... your mind and life is a westerner's mind. I guess what i would suggest is to be gentle and forgiving of self, while doing the practice. Best wishes, and hi to folks here fwiw, from memory and past experience I'd opine that a practice like this - even one done with an intense 16/7 focus and intensity - doesn't necessarily have to preclude nor even impede functioning in the social, material world. Perhaps I'll fall back into it for awhile to be able to speak from a present tense.  |
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Post by andrew on May 13, 2020 7:35:25 GMT -5
it's not easy to maintain because our action/choices reflect our values, and quite often there are little 'battles' playing out within our value system, and this is reflected and expressed in our mind as thought. To give one tiny example, my wife went into a store last night and wrestled internally for a few moments as to wear a mask or not. And I just experienced it fleetingly as i decided whether to write this or not. In truth, what our being seeks is to simply love and enjoy, and whilst this is principally an internal job, the external isn't wholly irrelevant. So the way I see it, your practice is definitely a good one, in the sense that ultimately you will likely be more usefully sensitive, perceptive, intuitive (and practically, it's good for the brain)...but I wouldn't see it as a 'end state', or something to try and achieve 'all the time'. Realistically, you are a westerner, with material concerns, family, bills to pay etc. You aren't a buddhist monk whose value system (and life) can be orientated wholly around that state... your mind and life is a westerner's mind. I guess what i would suggest is to be gentle and forgiving of self, while doing the practice. Best wishes, and hi to folks here fwiw, from memory and past experience I'd opine that a practice like this - even one done with an intense 16/7 focus and intensity - doesn't necessarily have to preclude nor even impede functioning in the social, material world. Perhaps I'll fall back into it for awhile to be able to speak from a present tense. I think it helps our functioning a lot to practice this (sorry if that wasn't clear). It's a good thing to do imo My point was really that putting ourselves under pressure to be in this state a lot of the time is not helpful, and it's perhaps unreasonable to expect too much for/from oneself. We don't have the 'luxury' that monks have lol. So a bit of gentleness and self-forgiveness also goes a long way for the western mindset while doing a practice. |
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Post by laughter on May 13, 2020 7:50:56 GMT -5
fwiw, from memory and past experience I'd opine that a practice like this - even one done with an intense 16/7 focus and intensity - doesn't necessarily have to preclude nor even impede functioning in the social, material world. Perhaps I'll fall back into it for awhile to be able to speak from a present tense. I think it helps our functioning a lot to practice this (sorry if that wasn't clear). It's a good thing to do imo My point was really that putting ourselves under pressure to be in this state a lot of the time is not helpful, and it's perhaps unreasonable to expect too much for/from oneself. We don't have the 'luxury' that monks have lol. So a bit of gentleness and self-forgiveness also goes a long way for the western mindset while doing a practice.Here again, from memory of past experience: absolutely, no doubt. |
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Post by zendancer on May 13, 2020 9:41:21 GMT -5
fwiw, from memory and past experience I'd opine that a practice like this - even one done with an intense 16/7 focus and intensity - doesn't necessarily have to preclude nor even impede functioning in the social, material world. Perhaps I'll fall back into it for awhile to be able to speak from a present tense. I think it helps our functioning a lot to practice this (sorry if that wasn't clear). It's a good thing to do imo My point was really that putting ourselves under pressure to be in this state a lot of the time is not helpful, and it's perhaps unreasonable to expect too much for/from oneself. We don't have the 'luxury' that monks have lol. So a bit of gentleness and self-forgiveness also goes a long way for the western mindset while doing a practice. FWIW, that's a nice idea, but it has nothing to do with the truth. It's no more possible to practice gentleness and self-forgiveness than it is to beat oneself up because there is no person at the center of whatever is happening who can purposely do anything. It will either happen or it won't. It's like saying, "I need to make myself get interested in X." There are not two people "inside," one of whom can make the other one do anything or one of whom can forgive the other one. Niz said to stay in the I am until even the I am disappears. I recommend ATA-T. Other people recommend other activities that are capable of freeing people from the imaginary meta-realities that dominate their attention. Whether one will resonate with any such advice is a mystery. In my case the path forward seemed highly logical. As soon as I realized that I had been primarily living in my head for 20 years, I had a burning desire to get out of my head and find the truth, so it required no effort to meditate. At that time I did not yet understand exactly what meditation does, but I could see that it was resulting in various realizations and freedom from past erroneous ideas. Later, it became increasingly obvious that the essential activity of meditation was the shifting of attention away from ideas (mind talk) to what is actual. Unlike Niz, I did not have a teacher who pointed out a clear path to me. I had to fumble around and experiment with all kinds of different practices until I found a path that was enjoyable and that accomplished the same thing as sitting on a mat. In my case it was hiking in wilderness areas while shifting attention away from thoughts to what could be seen, heard, or felt. IMO any activity that shifts attention away from mind talk will be efficacious. Whether these comments will resonate with anyone is a total mystery. |
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Post by andrew on May 13, 2020 9:54:57 GMT -5
I think it helps our functioning a lot to practice this (sorry if that wasn't clear). It's a good thing to do imo My point was really that putting ourselves under pressure to be in this state a lot of the time is not helpful, and it's perhaps unreasonable to expect too much for/from oneself. We don't have the 'luxury' that monks have lol. So a bit of gentleness and self-forgiveness also goes a long way for the western mindset while doing a practice. FWIW, that's a nice idea, but it has nothing to do with the truth. It's no more possible to practice gentleness and self-forgiveness than it is to beat oneself up because there is no person at the center of whatever is happening who can purposely do anything. It will either happen or it won't. It's like saying, "I need to make myself get interested in X." There are not two people "inside," one of whom can make the other one do anything or one of whom can forgive the other one. Niz said to stay in the I am until even the I am disappears. I recommend ATA-T. Other people recommend other activities that are capable of freeing people from the imaginary meta-realities that dominate their attention. Whether one will resonate with any such advice is a mystery. In my case the path forward seemed highly logical. As soon as I realized that I had been primarily living in my head for 20 years, I had a burning desire to get out of my head and find the truth, so it required no effort to meditate. At that time I did not yet understand exactly what meditation does, but I could see that it was resulting in various realizations and freedom from past erroneous ideas. Later, it became increasingly obvious that the essential activity of meditation was the shifting of attention away from ideas (mind talk) to what is actual. Unlike Niz, I did not have a teacher who pointed out a clear path to me. I had to fumble around and experiment with all kinds of different practices until I found a path that was enjoyable and that accomplished the same thing as sitting on a mat. In my case it was hiking in wilderness areas while shifting attention away from thoughts to what could be seen, heard, or felt. IMO any activity that shifts attention away from mind talk will be efficacious. Whether these comments will resonate with anyone is a total mystery. regardless of what's true or not (and unless someone said their mission is to discover 'the truth', I don't consider it relevant to practice), if the apparently volitional capacity is there to effort, stress and push...then the capacity is also there to ease off, relax, forgive, be gentle. A bit similarly, just as you use apparently volitional intention to lift heavy materials, you could also relax and drop them (just mind your feet!!). |
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Post by zendancer on May 13, 2020 11:08:24 GMT -5
FWIW, that's a nice idea, but it has nothing to do with the truth. It's no more possible to practice gentleness and self-forgiveness than it is to beat oneself up because there is no person at the center of whatever is happening who can purposely do anything. It will either happen or it won't. It's like saying, "I need to make myself get interested in X." There are not two people "inside," one of whom can make the other one do anything or one of whom can forgive the other one. Niz said to stay in the I am until even the I am disappears. I recommend ATA-T. Other people recommend other activities that are capable of freeing people from the imaginary meta-realities that dominate their attention. Whether one will resonate with any such advice is a mystery. In my case the path forward seemed highly logical. As soon as I realized that I had been primarily living in my head for 20 years, I had a burning desire to get out of my head and find the truth, so it required no effort to meditate. At that time I did not yet understand exactly what meditation does, but I could see that it was resulting in various realizations and freedom from past erroneous ideas. Later, it became increasingly obvious that the essential activity of meditation was the shifting of attention away from ideas (mind talk) to what is actual. Unlike Niz, I did not have a teacher who pointed out a clear path to me. I had to fumble around and experiment with all kinds of different practices until I found a path that was enjoyable and that accomplished the same thing as sitting on a mat. In my case it was hiking in wilderness areas while shifting attention away from thoughts to what could be seen, heard, or felt. IMO any activity that shifts attention away from mind talk will be efficacious. Whether these comments will resonate with anyone is a total mystery. regardless of what's true or not (and unless someone said their mission is to discover 'the truth', I don't consider it relevant to practice), if the apparently volitional capacity is there to effort, stress and push...then the capacity is also there to ease off, relax, forgive, be gentle. A bit similarly, just as you use apparently volitional intention to lift heavy materials, you could also relax and drop them (just mind your feet!!). The thought, "I should be gentle with myself," and the thought, "I should be hard on myself" are both self-referential thoughts. I suggest using all self-referential thoughts like a dharma bell reminder to shift attention away from such thoughts to direct sensory perception. If neuroscientists are correct in their assumption that there is a default mode neural network (DMNN) associated with self-referentiality (a particular region of the brain lights up when self-referential thinking occurs), then shifting attention away from such thoughts is what probably causes the thought-structure or neural pathway to collapse, resulting in SR. Staying in the I am, ATA-T, Ramana's "Who am I?" questioning, and any other activities that shift attention away from thoughts can take someone all the way home and expose the illusion of the SVP. If there's no interest in seeing through that illusion, then all one can say is, "Carry on." |
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Post by andrew on May 13, 2020 11:17:20 GMT -5
regardless of what's true or not (and unless someone said their mission is to discover 'the truth', I don't consider it relevant to practice), if the apparently volitional capacity is there to effort, stress and push...then the capacity is also there to ease off, relax, forgive, be gentle. A bit similarly, just as you use apparently volitional intention to lift heavy materials, you could also relax and drop them (just mind your feet!!). The thought, "I should be gentle with myself," and the thought, "I should be hard on myself" are both self-referential thoughts. I suggest using all self-referential thoughts like a dharma bell reminder to shift attention away from such thoughts to direct sensory perception. If neuroscientists are correct in their assumption that there is a default mode neural network (DMNN) associated with self-referentiality (a particular region of the brain lights up when self-referential thinking occurs), then shifting attention away from such thoughts is what probably causes the thought-structure or neural pathway to collapse, resulting in SR. Staying in the I am, ATA-T, Ramana's "Who am I?" questioning, and any other activities that shift attention away from thoughts can take someone all the way home and expose the illusion of the SVP. If there's no interest in seeing through that illusion, then all one can say is, "Carry on." But only a lunatic would have the thought that they 'should be hard on themselves', and most practicers aren't lunatics The kind of stress that can come with practices of any kind is usually a kind of, 'I'm not doing good enough', which can prompt further unproductive efforting. As I see it, spiritual practices of any kind require a kind artful balance between effort and gentleness. When the practice itself becomes a bit pressurized it's time to ease off the gas a bit. |
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Post by zendancer on May 13, 2020 11:24:41 GMT -5
The thought, "I should be gentle with myself," and the thought, "I should be hard on myself" are both self-referential thoughts. I suggest using all self-referential thoughts like a dharma bell reminder to shift attention away from such thoughts to direct sensory perception. If neuroscientists are correct in their assumption that there is a default mode neural network (DMNN) associated with self-referentiality (a particular region of the brain lights up when self-referential thinking occurs), then shifting attention away from such thoughts is what probably causes the thought-structure or neural pathway to collapse, resulting in SR. Staying in the I am, ATA-T, Ramana's "Who am I?" questioning, and any other activities that shift attention away from thoughts can take someone all the way home and expose the illusion of the SVP. If there's no interest in seeing through that illusion, then all one can say is, "Carry on." But only a lunatic would have the thought that they 'should be hard on themselves', and most practicers aren't lunatics The kind of stress that can come with practices of any kind is usually a kind of, 'I'm not doing good enough', which can prompt further unproductive efforting. As I see it, spiritual practices of any kind require a kind artful balance between effort and gentleness. When the practice itself becomes a bit pressurized it's time to ease off the gas a bit. No argument. I'm just pointing out that these kinds of thoughts simply reinforce the idea of being a SVP. This can't be helped until the illusion is penetrated, but pointing out the escape hatch is what THIS, as this character, has to do.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 13, 2020 22:11:12 GMT -5
<snip/> So what really is the meaning of touching the door frame? It's a reminder to be "choicelessly aware". Do you have reminders to be choicelessly aware? Then it's not choiceless observation, is it. Be honest, throughout the day, how often are you choicelessly aware? If not very often, then yes, you can call that choiceless observation. But if you say: I am choicelessly aware the majority of the time, I will say without reservation, that's just not true. <snip/> If you remember, later, Oh, I passed through that door and didn't touch the frame, that, in and of itself, right then, can yes, be a reminder (to be "choicelessly aware", that is, "to bring about some particular state of mind"). Right, when you remember then you've come back to yourself. But it's not a choice to remember, it just pops into one's head. The train of thought finally arrives at its destination and the passenger debarks. It came to me yesterday that this is why we have these stories of monks hearing a drop of water on bamboo and gaining enlightenment - that's all it took to bring them back to themselves for that final time. Or perhaps not final, who knows. It's the human condition to get distracted. How often am I aware, through choice or choicelessly? The smallest fraction of a sliver. Five mins absolute tops, on a good day (outside of meditation time). I wonder if it's actually tiring something out in some way - it feels like a muscle to exercise. What might be interesting is that the choice - if it exists at all - does not exist in that moment. It exists in the previous instance of awareness - however many hours or days ago that might have been. We set alarm clocks when we are awake, not during our sleep. My alarm clock keeps failing to go off. Very unreliable alarm clock. Or I sleep through it. Or I wake up briefly and fall asleep before I walk through the next door. And it feels like such a small carriage to be in, that train of thought, so constricting compared to the open expanse of awareness. A bubble reflecting in on itself. A scene from Jim Henson's 1986 film The Labyrinth came to mind, where Sarah sees a bubble then suddenly she's in the bubble and it takes some time for her to realise that her situation is something to escape from. "When you remember then you've come back to yourself". When you come back to yourself, that is very nearly the meaning of self-remembering. I'm sure you know about shocks. Yes, these story moments of a belling ringing, a pebble hitting bamboo, are a kind of shock that breaks up the routine of the ordinary, taking one out of the ordinary self into... "How often am I aware? The smallest fraction of a sliver". Precisely. "I wonder if it is tiring in some way"? Good question. Everything depends upon energy, the saving and accumulation of energy. And you are right, "If choice exists, it exists in the previous instance of awareness". The consciousness you are writing about requires a certain quantity and quality of energy. It is difficult to come to this energy as we waste enormous amounts of energy daily. Everything we do requires energy, every thought, every feeling and of course every action. Anybody who has been really angry, or has another extreme emotion, knows it can wipe you out, exhaust you. It can bring a certain energy, but one is eventually drained. Same with thinking. Some of you have probably experienced extreme focus for hours, maybe even a couple of days. Eventually you crash. Physical endurance depends on several factors. Probably most people have never pushed themselves to the utter limit (a marathon for example). But there is a surprise if you do. But the point is, we waste enormous amounts of energy. If we find ways to save energy, this energy can go into making certain efforts. Efforts to bring awareness do use energy, but at the same time they save energy, and this energy can accumulate. This connects to your point about previous awareness. Awareness can accumulate energy that becomes a kind of field. This field is what can bring the wish to experience awareness, again. And yes, we set alarm clocks when we are awake, not when we are asleep. But alarm clocks are different from the energy-field. Alarm clocks are a kind of mechanical device. But the trouble with them is habituation. They may work once or twice or three times, but we get used to them and so can come to ignore them. Yes, we all live in a kind of bubble, and yes, we do not realize our dangerous situation. We think everybody is in the same boat. We think either everybody survives death or nobody survives death. But even not going to that extent, we don't recognize the value of awareness versus our ordinary day by day life. There is a story about this in the Bible. Esau did not value his birthright, being a little older than his fraternal twin Jacob. Esau sold his birthright for some bean soup. When we do not value awareness, we do the same thing. You have written a rare post Peter. |
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