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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 21:41:41 GMT -5
I am suspicious of how difficult this all appears to be. When I feel lost (almost always), or sometimes miserable, and I sit in silence to look/wait for an answer, it seems the doors are closed. This does not fit with this idea that the “Universe” (or whatever you want to call it) wants to wake up or know the the truth. Years ago I thought I was getting "help" from someplace higher/deeper. Not so sure anymore.
The thread subject: Does “God” get something from ignorance? I mean, does it want to remain lost? I'm thinking out loud again...
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Post by laughter on Mar 10, 2020 1:42:19 GMT -5
I am suspicious of how difficult this all appears to be. When I feel lost (almost always), or sometimes miserable, and I sit in silence to look/wait for an answer, it seems the doors are closed. This does not fit with this idea that the “Universe” (or whatever you want to call it) wants to wake up or know the the truth. Years ago I thought I was getting "help" from someplace higher/deeper. Not so sure anymore. The thread subject: Does “God” get something from ignorance? I mean, does it want to remain lost? I'm thinking out loud again... fwiw, if you wanted to write more about what you mean by feeling lost I'd definitely read it, and I'm sure others would as well. It's not so much that I have any sort of answer to your question that might help, but perhaps someone else will, and even just the act of writing it out might surprise you in terms of helping to lead to a relative clarity. Even if you don't write about it publicly, perhaps just the act of externalizing what you mean might help. I can certainly relate to the world seeming hard, and cold. No doubt. Not now - at least, not in existential terms - but I remember what that was like, and as I've written many times before, pain is a fact of life, regardless of what anyone has realized or how well aligned they've become. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 10:25:25 GMT -5
I am suspicious of how difficult this all appears to be. When I feel lost (almost always), or sometimes miserable, and I sit in silence to look/wait for an answer, it seems the doors are closed. This does not fit with this idea that the “Universe” (or whatever you want to call it) wants to wake up or know the the truth. Years ago I thought I was getting "help" from someplace higher/deeper. Not so sure anymore. The thread subject: Does “God” get something from ignorance? I mean, does it want to remain lost? I'm thinking out loud again... Perhaps lost is found. I decided to look at my "lost" feeling as a knock on my door. I don't treat those feelings anymore like ugly step children. I stay with them in silence. They are meant to knock me down and open me up, I let them. Posting about this here is a step toward opening up. Who knows where lowering defenses will lead? You're not alone in that boat, friend. |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 12, 2020 7:54:29 GMT -5
I am suspicious of how difficult this all appears to be. When I feel lost (almost always), or sometimes miserable, and I sit in silence to look/wait for an answer, it seems the doors are closed. This does not fit with this idea that the “Universe” (or whatever you want to call it) wants to wake up or know the the truth. Years ago I thought I was getting "help" from someplace higher/deeper. Not so sure anymore. The thread subject: Does “God” get something from ignorance? I mean, does it want to remain lost? I'm thinking out loud again... The idea of getting clear, attaining understanding, waking up, etc. is an idea, and that's the problem. The pathless path is about doing whatever it takes to "get out of one's head" (getting free of ideas) and discovering what is actual. In all probability feeling miserable is a consequence of various thoughts, so find out if that's true, and if it is, then investigate whether any of those thoughts are true. At the center of most thoughts is the idea that there is a "me" who needs or wants something, who feels wonderful or miserable, who fantasizes about the future or regrets the past, who compares its accomplishments or failings with others, who judges/evaluates/imagines/thinks/discriminates/names/distinguishes/etc. The "me" is fictitious, but that fictitious idea is powerful and gets reinforced every day via thinking. To find the truth, we must keep shifting attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, or silence, or whatever activity is being engaged in. Take a walk every day and just look at the world without naming what is seen or commenting upon it. Each time a thought is recognized as having interrupted direct perception, shift attention back to direct perception. Nisargadatta once told a student, "You didn't get into this mess overnight," and that's true. Humans get into the mess of thinking that they're separate from THIS so gradually that they don't realize what's happening. By the time they become adults they've adopted the consensus trance of all other adults and they think that they see a world of separate things defined by sets of boundaries. All boundaries are imaginary. The path is one of looking without imagining until direct perception becomes a way of life and the truth becomes obvious. Is the path difficult or easy? Neither! It is what it is. The path is one of exchanging the habit of thinking and imagining for looking, listening, feeling, noticing, attending, smelling, tasting, etc. until the truth becomes obvious. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 12, 2020 9:33:33 GMT -5
I am suspicious of how difficult this all appears to be. When I feel lost (almost always), or sometimes miserable, and I sit in silence to look/wait for an answer, it seems the doors are closed. This does not fit with this idea that the “Universe” (or whatever you want to call it) wants to wake up or know the the truth. Years ago I thought I was getting "help" from someplace higher/deeper. Not so sure anymore. The thread subject: Does “God” get something from ignorance? I mean, does it want to remain lost? I'm thinking out loud again... When ignorance is cleared up, it will become apparent -- and this is not something you can ever understand by thinking about it -- that there never was any ignorance! God was never lost. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 13:10:21 GMT -5
fwiw, if you wanted to write more about what you mean by feeling lost I'd definitely read it, and I'm sure others would as well. It's not so much that I have any sort of answer to your question that might help, but perhaps someone else will, and even just the act of writing it out might surprise you in terms of helping to lead to a relative clarity. Even if you don't write about it publicly, perhaps just the act of externalizing what you mean might help. I can certainly relate to the world seeming hard, and cold. No doubt. Not now - at least, not in existential terms - but I remember what that was like, and as I've written many times before, pain is a fact of life, regardless of what anyone has realized or how well aligned they've become. Thanks. I'm mulling this over and maybe I can write more at some point. One reason I don't go usually go into detail, and I wrote simply "lost", is that I have mixed feelings about describing personal, psychological problems. I can sometimes do it in person in the right friendly context, but on the internet it feels more embarrassing and maybe unwise to permanently publish things like that. I can also feel like self-indulgent wallowing. ... As I've gotten into my 40's I feel more mental burden from being a 'failure' (as defined by the society, family, etc). I understand that this is a mental construct. I guess on some level I believe it, or more accurately: fear it might be true. A lot of the collective belief system is about finding "love"/sex in the world. I did not do this, and have walked the path of a loner. A lot of my problematic thought patterns seem to be in this area. I sometimes trigger a depression by looking at a young physically attractive woman. It bothers me that so much of life seems to be a dumb contest over people’s randomly assigned DNA traits (both physical appearance and mental functioning like intelligence, humor, etc.), which determine whether they are attractive to other people. Maybe this sounds shallow, but I think it gets at the core of how we define ourselves, and the "I-am-the-body virus [thought]", as Nisargadatta called it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 13:24:17 GMT -5
When ignorance is cleared up, it will become apparent -- and this is not something you can ever understand by thinking about it -- that there never was any ignorance! God was never lost. There is a line in I am That, that says something like "God doesn't make mistakes." Something about the way he says it and the authority of the surrounding lines... it is one of the more potent passages in that book for me. Gives a sense of uncompromising ___ . |
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Post by laughter on Mar 12, 2020 14:01:59 GMT -5
fwiw, if you wanted to write more about what you mean by feeling lost I'd definitely read it, and I'm sure others would as well. It's not so much that I have any sort of answer to your question that might help, but perhaps someone else will, and even just the act of writing it out might surprise you in terms of helping to lead to a relative clarity. Even if you don't write about it publicly, perhaps just the act of externalizing what you mean might help. I can certainly relate to the world seeming hard, and cold. No doubt. Not now - at least, not in existential terms - but I remember what that was like, and as I've written many times before, pain is a fact of life, regardless of what anyone has realized or how well aligned they've become. Thanks. I'm mulling this over and maybe I can write more at some point. One reason I don't go usually go into detail, and I wrote simply "lost", is that I have mixed feelings about describing personal, psychological problems. I can sometimes do it in person in the right friendly context, but on the internet it feels more embarrassing and maybe unwise to permanently publish things like that. I can also feel like self-indulgent wallowing. ... As I've gotten into my 40's I feel more mental burden from being a 'failure' (as defined by the society, family, etc). I understand that this is a mental construct. I guess on some level I believe it, or more accurately: fear it might be true. A lot of the collective belief system is about finding "love"/sex in the world. I did not do this, and have walked the path of a loner. A lot of my problematic thought patterns seem to be in this area. I sometimes trigger a depression by looking at a young physically attractive woman. It bothers me that so much of life seems to be a dumb contest over people’s randomly assigned DNA traits (both physical appearance and mental functioning like intelligence, humor, etc.), which determine whether they are attractive to other people. Maybe this sounds shallow, but I think it gets at the core of how we define ourselves, and the "I-am-the-body virus [thought]", as Nisargadatta called it. Nah, not shallow at all, it goes to the very root of our physical selves. The flip side to neti-neti is that it's a process that happens by and through the vehicle of the body/mind. That vehicle has evolved to self-replicate. Relative existential insight is often catalyzed by challenge, even to the point of suffering and beyond. The first step in any segment of a path involving a process of becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of our own body/mind is to get self-honest about what's happening, in the moment, right now. I applaud the courage it takes to open up like you have here. Relating to the personal specifics, what I can say looking back is that I've never regretted those times that I made the effort to get out of my comfort zone, which gets harder as we get older. What seems to me to be the easiest facet of clarity here is the social conformity aspect. I was lucky this way as I was conditioned to be an outsider.  But even with having been taught to not care what other people think, it's impossible to go through life completely immune to social pressure. The cognitive dissonance between our feelings about the expectations vs. the existential insight of their falsity is actually a great opportunity in terms of self-inquiry. Who is it that gives a f#ck what other people think? And hey, I can openly admit to having overtly, clearly, and spectacularly failed by many if not most conventional material metrics.  The flip-side to that, though, is one of Plato's shadow's, in that the rest of humanity sort of constantly beckons to us with opportunity and promise, driven by our own need, all toward a call to material unity. Not entirely a one-way street, and not a road over easy terrain for many if not most, but still, the cliche that no man is an island is a cliche for a reason.
Whatever desire you might feel, that's a different issue, one that's definitely deeper, and, of course, intensely personal. While you didn't raise the topic in particular, I think the best anyone could ever say here is to forcefully reject even the slightest hint of any movement of mind in the direction of shame. If anything is best dissolved in silence, it's that. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 13, 2020 22:36:50 GMT -5
I am suspicious of how difficult this all appears to be. When I feel lost (almost always), or sometimes miserable, and I sit in silence to look/wait for an answer, it seems the doors are closed. This does not fit with this idea that the “Universe” (or whatever you want to call it) wants to wake up or know the the truth. Years ago I thought I was getting "help" from someplace higher/deeper. Not so sure anymore. The thread subject: Does “God” get something from ignorance? I mean, does it want to remain lost? I'm thinking out loud again... robertc, everything is turned upside down, topsy-turvy. The misery is coming from a deeper sense of self, the ~person~ writing these words is not this deeper self. So the misery is a good thing. Yes, the writer of the words is lost, a good thing. If the goals and ambitions of life were satisfactory for you, you wouldn't have these feelings nor misery. This deeper self is communicating with the surface-~person~-thinker. So the sitting is silence is a good thing. In the sitting you become the answer. You are shifting to this deeper self, which is essentially awareness itself. So stay in the awareness. Eventually you can do this anytime/anywhere. I would say yes, you are getting help, that is, help is always available. You could say this deeper self has multiple connections, more help. But you have to become it. The self writing the words can never get it, the self writing the words is an obstruction. A subtle shift has to take place. IMO the numerous little tiny shifts bring eventually this shift. Enough words... When the words come to you, that ain't it... "God" is the ocean. ~You~ are a thimble-full of-the-ocean. ~You~ are ~diluted~ to the point of ignorance. But the ocean is not ignorant. "God" cannot be some(no)thing it isn't. |
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Post by amit on Mar 14, 2020 4:24:51 GMT -5
I am suspicious of how difficult this all appears to be. When I feel lost (almost always), or sometimes miserable, and I sit in silence to look/wait for an answer, it seems the doors are closed. This does not fit with this idea that the “Universe” (or whatever you want to call it) wants to wake up or know the the truth. Years ago I thought I was getting "help" from someplace higher/deeper. Not so sure anymore. The thread subject: Does “God” get something from ignorance? I mean, does it want to remain lost? I'm thinking out loud again... It might depend on how you describe the nature of what you are seeking. For example if you are seeking connection with that which is all there is then that is already you feeling lost and miserable! for Oneness is already all states including you no matter what state you are in. You may want to feel the blissful state spiritual paths promise but of course those states are no more Oneness than the state you are in already. No attaining of a blissful state can increase Onenesss. There are no degrees of Oneness. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2020 15:08:54 GMT -5
I am suspicious of how difficult this all appears to be. When I feel lost (almost always), or sometimes miserable, and I sit in silence to look/wait for an answer, it seems the doors are closed. This does not fit with this idea that the “Universe” (or whatever you want to call it) wants to wake up or know the the truth. Years ago I thought I was getting "help" from someplace higher/deeper. Not so sure anymore. The thread subject: Does “God” get something from ignorance? I mean, does it want to remain lost? I'm thinking out loud again... It might depend on how you describe the nature of what you are seeking. For example if you are seeking connection with that which is all there is then that is already you feeling lost and miserable! for Oneness is already all states including you no matter what state you are in. You may want to feel the blissful state spiritual paths promise but of course those states are no more Oneness than the state you are in already. No attaining of a blissful state can increase Onenesss. There are no degrees of Oneness. Though I agree oneness cannot be fleeting, there is a happiness that underlies all states or at least that is what I believe. I am reminded of the Buddist story about being cornered by a tiger on the edge of a cliff, the protagonist finds a root to cling to, but it starts to give and the tiger has found the way below. The protagonist can't climb up and certainly the root will give. Yet there are beautiful wild flowers growing on the side of the cliff. Misery and happiness then depends on where the mind moves, to the tiger or the flowers. |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 14, 2020 15:52:49 GMT -5
It might depend on how you describe the nature of what you are seeking. For example if you are seeking connection with that which is all there is then that is already you feeling lost and miserable! for Oneness is already all states including you no matter what state you are in. You may want to feel the blissful state spiritual paths promise but of course those states are no more Oneness than the state you are in already. No attaining of a blissful state can increase Onenesss. There are no degrees of Oneness. Though I agree oneness cannot be fleeting, there is a happiness that underlies all states or at least that is what I believe. I am reminded of the Buddist story about being cornered by a tiger on the edge of a cliff, the protagonist finds a root to cling to, but it starts to give and the tiger has found the way below. The protagonist can't climb up and certainly the root will give. Yet there are beautiful wild flowers growing on the side of the cliff. Misery and happiness then depends on where the mind moves, to the tiger or the flowers. The way I heard the story told by the Buddha was a guy ran from a tiger, climbed down a cliff on a vine as a way to escape, then looked down and saw another tiger waiting below. The man was trapped halfway down the cliff with a tiger waiting at the top of the cliff and a tiger waiting at the bottom of the cliff. A disciple then asked the Buddha, "What did the man do?" The Buddha said, 'Well, the man noticed a ripe strawberry growing out a cleft in the cliff. within his reach" The disciple asked, "What did he do?" The Buddha replied, "He held onto the vine with one hand and used his other hand to pluck the strawberry which he ate." The disciple continued, "Is that all?" The Buddha replied, "It was sweet." hahaha This story was told in a dharma talk about the importance of staying focused upon whatever is happening in the present moment and physically taking whatever action is possible rather than spending time worrying. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2020 18:23:56 GMT -5
Though I agree oneness cannot be fleeting, there is a happiness that underlies all states or at least that is what I believe. I am reminded of the Buddist story about being cornered by a tiger on the edge of a cliff, the protagonist finds a root to cling to, but it starts to give and the tiger has found the way below. The protagonist can't climb up and certainly the root will give. Yet there are beautiful wild flowers growing on the side of the cliff. Misery and happiness then depends on where the mind moves, to the tiger or the flowers. The way I heard the story told by the Buddha was a guy ran from a tiger, climbed down a cliff on a vine as a way to escape, then looked down and saw another tiger waiting below. The man was trapped halfway down the cliff with a tiger waiting at the top of the cliff and a tiger waiting at the bottom of the cliff. A disciple then asked the Buddha, "What did the man do?" The Buddha said, 'Well, the man noticed a ripe strawberry growing out a cleft in the cliff. within his reach" The disciple asked, "What did he do?" The Buddha replied, "He held onto the vine with one hand and used his other hand to pluck the strawberry which he ate." The disciple continued, "Is that all?" The Buddha replied, "It was sweet." hahaha This story was told in a dharma talk about the importance of staying focused upon whatever is happening in the present moment and physically taking whatever action is possible rather than spending time worrying. My version of the story came from a book about Buddhism, a kind of generic version. Before my Zen days. The point of the story, from the author's perspective was that at any given time there's enough there to be happy, you just don't notice. This had to be in the early eighties. But the story stuck with me somehow. Just the moral seems weird. Ignore the fact that you'll be tiger food by focusing on the pretty flowers or the present. Not really. But then Zen monks set themselves on fire without flinching, so there must be something to it. |
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Post by amit on Mar 14, 2020 20:33:38 GMT -5
It might depend on how you describe the nature of what you are seeking. For example if you are seeking connection with that which is all there is then that is already you feeling lost and miserable! for Oneness is already all states including you no matter what state you are in. You may want to feel the blissful state spiritual paths promise but of course those states are no more Oneness than the state you are in already. No attaining of a blissful state can increase Onenesss. There are no degrees of Oneness. Though I agree oneness cannot be fleeting, there is a happiness that underlies all states or at least that is what I believe. I am reminded of the Buddist story about being cornered by a tiger on the edge of a cliff, the protagonist finds a root to cling to, but it starts to give and the tiger has found the way below. The protagonist can't climb up and certainly the root will give. Yet there are beautiful wild flowers growing on the side of the cliff. Misery and happiness then depends on where the mind moves, to the tiger or the flowers. For some resonance with All is One is enough to end the search. What Tony Pasons calls "The small wow". |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 14, 2020 22:42:35 GMT -5
The way I heard the story told by the Buddha was a guy ran from a tiger, climbed down a cliff on a vine as a way to escape, then looked down and saw another tiger waiting below. The man was trapped halfway down the cliff with a tiger waiting at the top of the cliff and a tiger waiting at the bottom of the cliff. A disciple then asked the Buddha, "What did the man do?" The Buddha said, 'Well, the man noticed a ripe strawberry growing out a cleft in the cliff. within his reach" The disciple asked, "What did he do?" The Buddha replied, "He held onto the vine with one hand and used his other hand to pluck the strawberry which he ate." The disciple continued, "Is that all?" The Buddha replied, "It was sweet." hahaha This story was told in a dharma talk about the importance of staying focused upon whatever is happening in the present moment and physically taking whatever action is possible rather than spending time worrying. My version of the story came from a book about Buddhism, a kind of generic version. Before my Zen days. The point of the story, from the author's perspective was that at any given time there's enough there to be happy, you just don't notice. This had to be in the early eighties. But the story stuck with me somehow. Just the moral seems weird. Ignore the fact that you'll be tiger food by focusing on the pretty flowers or the present. Not really. But then Zen monks set themselves on fire without flinching, so there must be something to it. The version I read added two mice crawling up to the vine and beginning to gnaw on it. |
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But even with having been taught to not care what other people think, it's impossible to go through life completely immune to social pressure. The cognitive dissonance between our feelings about the expectations vs. the existential insight of their falsity is actually a great opportunity in terms of self-inquiry. Who is it that gives a f#ck what other people think? And hey, I can openly admit to having overtly, clearly, and spectacularly failed by many if not most conventional material metrics. 
