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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 12:02:11 GMT -5
Yet another question for the Self Realized. So you see the rope is not a snake, but yet you stay clear of the rope as if it were. Why? Because the rope bites? Because you love your imaginary creation? It just happens? I recognize no answer is correct, but I still ask the question. Probably because this obstinate body/mind is working overtime to stick around, hanging on tightly. The rope is your true transcendent unchanging nature. The snake is what appears to be the superimposition of maya on top of the rope which is mistakenly taken to be separate from the rope. In actuality there never was a snake, only rope. The snake was only ever the rope appearing to be a snake. Yes. I see what you are saying. This relative reality are adjuncts, but if they are merely that, why do you avoid charging elephants? If avoiding the charging elephant is also just an adjunct, a false overlay induced by maya, are you really avoiding the elephant or does it just seem so? This is beautiful. |
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Post by satchitananda on Nov 18, 2019 12:59:39 GMT -5
The rope is your true transcendent unchanging nature. The snake is what appears to be the superimposition of maya on top of the rope which is mistakenly taken to be separate from the rope. In actuality there never was a snake, only rope. The snake was only ever the rope appearing to be a snake. Yes. I see what you are saying. This relative reality are adjuncts, but if they are merely that, why do you avoid charging elephants? If avoiding the charging elephant is also just an adjunct, a false overlay induced by maya, are you really avoiding the elephant or does it just seem so? This is beautiful. Yes, Shankara was asked by his devotees why he ran away from the charging elephant if it was just an illusion and he replied that the running was also an illusion as was the tree he hid in. But even so, he still remained as the unchanging witness. There is no satisfying resolution for the mind in this. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 18, 2019 13:32:49 GMT -5
Yes. I see what you are saying. This relative reality are adjuncts, but if they are merely that, why do you avoid charging elephants? If avoiding the charging elephant is also just an adjunct, a false overlay induced by maya, are you really avoiding the elephant or does it just seem so? This is beautiful. Yes, Shankara was asked by his devotees why he ran away from the charging elephant if it was just an illusion and he replied that the running was also an illusion as was the tree he hid in. But even so, he still remained as the unchanging witness. There is no satisfying resolution for the mind in this. The resolution for mind lies in understanding how mind functions to make distinctions. When the mind is quiescent, thinking doesn't interfere with the natural functioning of the body in its relation to whatever is happening. After distinctions have been made and understood, what we call the subconscious aspect of mind functions without the necessity of conscious reflective thought. If an elephant charges, we run for safety. Conscious thinking is not necessary; subconscious processes take care of everything. The body sees and understands. What we call "what is" is not an illusion; it simply is what it is-- THAT--and all we can do is point to it since it can't be grasped by words or thoughts. |
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Post by satchitananda on Nov 18, 2019 20:50:38 GMT -5
Yes, Shankara was asked by his devotees why he ran away from the charging elephant if it was just an illusion and he replied that the running was also an illusion as was the tree he hid in. But even so, he still remained as the unchanging witness. There is no satisfying resolution for the mind in this. The resolution for mind lies in understanding how mind functions to make distinctions. When the mind is quiescent, thinking doesn't interfere with the natural functioning of the body in its relation to whatever is happening. After distinctions have been made and understood, what we call the subconscious aspect of mind functions without the necessity of conscious reflective thought. If an elephant charges, we run for safety. Conscious thinking is not necessary; subconscious processes take care of everything. The body sees and understands. What we call "what is" is not an illusion; it simply is what it is-- THAT--and all we can do is point to it since it can't be grasped by words or thoughts. That's not some kind of attainment. Everybody will run away from an elephant, triggered by a self protective instinctive non thinking reaction and without understanding anything. You don't need 20 years of Zen to teach you how to run away from an elephant. You'd get trampled if you hung around trying to resolve something about the subconscious. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 18, 2019 21:44:45 GMT -5
The resolution for mind lies in understanding how mind functions to make distinctions. When the mind is quiescent, thinking doesn't interfere with the natural functioning of the body in its relation to whatever is happening. After distinctions have been made and understood, what we call the subconscious aspect of mind functions without the necessity of conscious reflective thought. If an elephant charges, we run for safety. Conscious thinking is not necessary; subconscious processes take care of everything. The body sees and understands. What we call "what is" is not an illusion; it simply is what it is-- THAT--and all we can do is point to it since it can't be grasped by words or thoughts. That's not some kind of attainment. Everybody will run away from an elephant, triggered by a self protective instinctive non thinking reaction and without understanding anything. You don't need 20 years of Zen to teach you how to run away from an elephant. You'd get trampled if you hung around trying to resolve something about the subconscious. I was simply making fun of Shankara's response, which sounds clever but is also sorta silly---an illusory person is climbing an illusory tree to escape an illusory elephant. There's a much funnier and much more direct Zen response that explicates the issue precisely, but i'll leave that for others to discover. No words are necessary for that kind of response. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 18, 2019 22:57:41 GMT -5
Yet another question for the Self Realized. So you see the rope is not a snake, but yet you stay clear of the rope as if it were. Why? Because the rope bites? Because you love your imaginary creation? It just happens? I recognize no answer is correct, but I still ask the question. Probably because this obstinate body/mind is working overtime to stick around, hanging on tightly. There's no effort in "avoiding" what is essentially, an optical illusion, so to say that "you stay clear" isn't really what's going on. The survival instinct is the expression of a machine, billions of years in the making through the process of evolution. Existential clarity as to this situation doesn't alter that machinery. A personality that gets irritated by various cultural expressions of what are judged as an absence of virtue is a similar expression, but the interplay with that machine is more nuanced. What the rope/snake analogy is pointing toward, has nothing to do with nuance.  |
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Post by laughter on Nov 18, 2019 23:00:44 GMT -5
The rope is your true transcendent unchanging nature. The snake is what appears to be the superimposition of maya on top of the rope which is mistakenly taken to be separate from the rope. In actuality there never was a snake, only rope. The snake was only ever the rope appearing to be a snake. Yes. I see what you are saying. This relative reality are adjuncts, but if they are merely that, why do you avoid charging elephants? If avoiding the charging elephant is also just an adjunct, a false overlay induced by maya, are you really avoiding the elephant or does it just seem so? This is beautiful. In the moment, the fear of the elephant is the reality of that moment. In the trampling, though, there is no suffering - although quite a bit of pain, and there's no making sense of that. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 13:57:46 GMT -5
That's not some kind of attainment. Everybody will run away from an elephant, triggered by a self protective instinctive non thinking reaction and without understanding anything. You don't need 20 years of Zen to teach you how to run away from an elephant. You'd get trampled if you hung around trying to resolve something about the subconscious. I was simply making fun of Shankara's response, which sounds clever but is also sorta silly---an illusory person is climbing an illusory tree to escape an illusory elephant. There's a much funnier and much more direct Zen response that explicates the issue precisely, but i'll leave that for others to discover. No words are necessary for that kind of response. I don't see the two views as contradictory, yours and Shankara's. The contradiction between action and thought only seems so. If you remove mind from the equation, it doesn't matter, adrenaline flows, heart rate increases, pupils dilate and feet move really really fast in this illusion or reality, take your pick. I submit the illusionary feet move even faster when there is no doer, the so called doer just gets in the way and asks trippy questions. Shankara merely postulates that the mechanism which poses such a dichotomy is flawed, suspect, illusory. The intent of both approches is the same. I would say Zen offers a slightly blunter instrument to remove the obstacle. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 14:11:37 GMT -5
Yet another question for the Self Realized. So you see the rope is not a snake, but yet you stay clear of the rope as if it were. Why? Because the rope bites? Because you love your imaginary creation? It just happens? I recognize no answer is correct, but I still ask the question. Probably because this obstinate body/mind is working overtime to stick around, hanging on tightly. There's no effort in "avoiding" what is essentially, an optical illusion, so to say that "you stay clear" isn't really what's going on. The survival instinct is the expression of a machine, billions of years in the making through the process of evolution. Existential clarity as to this situation doesn't alter that machinery. A personality that gets irritated by various cultural expressions of what are judged as an absence of virtue is a similar expression, but the interplay with that machine is more nuanced. What the rope/snake analogy is pointing toward, has nothing to do with nuance. I vehemently and with vengeful anger resemble the remark in your penultimate sentence. I am appalled at your judginess toward self righteous kind folk. How dare you? Almost as appalling as twenty's, I mean Sharon or is it really Reefs, toward nuclear armed misanthropes. If we were in the Boy's Club, I'd challenge you to a boxing match and Sharon. Although she kinda scares me. Such a beautiful day here today, low seventies, clear skies.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 16:45:31 GMT -5
There's no effort in "avoiding" what is essentially, an optical illusion, so to say that "you stay clear" isn't really what's going on. The survival instinct is the expression of a machine, billions of years in the making through the process of evolution. Existential clarity as to this situation doesn't alter that machinery. A personality that gets irritated by various cultural expressions of what are judged as an absence of virtue is a similar expression, but the interplay with that machine is more nuanced. What the rope/snake analogy is pointing toward, has nothing to do with nuance. I vehemently and with vengeful anger resemble the remark in your penultimate sentence. I am appalled at your judginess toward self righteous kind folk. How dare you? Almost as appalling as twenty's, I mean Sharon or is it really Reefs, toward nuclear armed misanthropes. If we were in the Boy's Club, I'd challenge you to a boxing match and Sharon. Although she kinda scares me. Such a beautiful day here today, low seventies, clear skies. Do you ever strike up a conversation with strangers when you're out in public? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 16:54:12 GMT -5
I vehemently and with vengeful anger resemble the remark in your penultimate sentence. I am appalled at your judginess toward self righteous kind folk. How dare you? Almost as appalling as twenty's, I mean Sharon or is it really Reefs, toward nuclear armed misanthropes. If we were in the Boy's Club, I'd challenge you to a boxing match and Sharon. Although she kinda scares me. Such a beautiful day here today, low seventies, clear skies. Do you ever strike up a conversation with strangers when you're out in public? Never me, but my dog does on our walks quite often. She loves on almost anybody. She's not very discerning. A butt sniffer though. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 19, 2019 17:01:10 GMT -5
I was simply making fun of Shankara's response, which sounds clever but is also sorta silly---an illusory person is climbing an illusory tree to escape an illusory elephant. There's a much funnier and much more direct Zen response that explicates the issue precisely, but i'll leave that for others to discover. No words are necessary for that kind of response. I don't see the two views as contradictory, yours and Shankara's. The contradiction between action and thought only seems so. If you remove mind from the equation, it doesn't matter, adrenaline flows, heart rate increases, pupils dilate and feet move really really fast in this illusion or reality, take your pick. I submit the illusionary feet move even faster when there is no doer, the so called doer just gets in the way and asks trippy questions. Shankara merely postulates that the mechanism which poses such a dichotomy is flawed, suspect, illusory. The intent of both approches is the same. I would say Zen offers a slightly blunter instrument to remove the obstacle. Not telling you anything you don't already know, but Zen is method: a quiet mind is the way in which illusion is distinguished from reality. The mind hook is how this translates, in relative terms. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 19, 2019 17:03:08 GMT -5
There's no effort in "avoiding" what is essentially, an optical illusion, so to say that "you stay clear" isn't really what's going on. The survival instinct is the expression of a machine, billions of years in the making through the process of evolution. Existential clarity as to this situation doesn't alter that machinery. A personality that gets irritated by various cultural expressions of what are judged as an absence of virtue is a similar expression, but the interplay with that machine is more nuanced. What the rope/snake analogy is pointing toward, has nothing to do with nuance. I vehemently and with vengeful anger resemble the remark in your penultimate sentence. I am appalled at your judginess toward self righteous kind folk. How dare you? Almost as appalling as twenty's, I mean Sharon or is it really Reefs, toward nuclear armed misanthropes. If we were in the Boy's Club, I'd challenge you to a boxing match and Sharon. Although she kinda scares me. Such a beautiful day here today, low seventies, clear skies.  .. I'll be sure to pray for you this next Sunday's red hour ...  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 17:16:17 GMT -5
Do you ever strike up a conversation with strangers when you're out in public? Never me, but my dog does on our walks quite often. She loves on almost anybody. She's not very discerning. A butt sniffer though. How do you know whether that's true? Have you ever seen her body swerve someone that wasn't in an approachable state? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 17:59:21 GMT -5
Never me, but my dog does on our walks quite often. She loves on almost anybody. She's not very discerning. A butt sniffer though. How do you know whether that's true? Have you ever seen her body swerve someone that wasn't in an approachable state? She seems to love all humans. She treats them like kids treat popsicles, unless they're riding lawn mowers or pushing vacuum cleaners. Then it's attack mode even though she is deaf. I'm the one who swerves her when the humans are grumpy, like Laffy. |
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.. I'll be sure to pray for you this next Sunday's red hour ...