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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 3, 2022 11:48:42 GMT -5
Sure. Helping others, doing what one can to reduce conflict, etc. is not precluded. How life unfolds is neither convoluted nor otherwise; it simply is what it is, and one responds accordingly. These words are pointing AWAY from ideation, opinions, and judgmentalness. Sure, it's hard to qualify. I guess I was just thinking about how those who take the view that ultimately there is no choice, will often talk [to others] in a way that appears to suggest otherwise. That's what I'm calling unnecessarily convoluted. It just seems odd that that's how it plays out in the first place considering there is no alternative. That, that's the way 'this unfolds' in any event, under the circumstances. But especially so where it's supposedly known that there is no alternative. I guess you can dismiss all that as merely ideas about 'this' or whatever, and if you're content with that then I suppose it's fine. It's just that I sense something is awry. Yes, this is the fly in the ointment. I've tried to explore this here for 13+ years, why everything is not "~ perfect~". My view is that life is a kind of school. My view is that life is a spiral, can be an upward spiral or a downward spiral. The fly in the ointment is the separate self. The separate self will always take us downward. The separate self will always be an obstruction to upward. I have to stop there, as there is stuff to do.... Just read zazeniac's post too. For his Mom, bees were dangerous. (Thus), all the monster's are not imaginary. |
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Post by zazeniac on Nov 3, 2022 12:09:13 GMT -5
I think in your case it has nothing to do with enlightenment and everything to do with a certain kind of madness that has reefs' name at the start of it.😉 my life continues the same as before.. but there is zero interest in 'the past'.. and the future is seen as a creative playbox of possibilities.. everything about life is beautiful amazing and miraculous  "Reefer madness," I was jabbing you. You're admired. |
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Post by zazeniac on Nov 3, 2022 12:22:02 GMT -5
Sure, it's hard to qualify. I guess I was just thinking about how those who take the view that ultimately there is no choice, will often talk [to others] in a way that appears to suggest otherwise. That's what I'm calling unnecessarily convoluted. It just seems odd that that's how it plays out in the first place considering there is no alternative. That, that's the way 'this unfolds' in any event, under the circumstances. But especially so where it's supposedly known that there is no alternative. I guess you can dismiss all that as merely ideas about 'this' or whatever, and if you're content with that then I suppose it's fine. It's just that I sense something is awry. Yes, this is the fly in the ointment. I've tried to explore this here for 13+ years, why everything is not "~ perfect~". My view is that life is a kind of school. My view is that life is a spiral, can be an upward spiral or a downward spiral. The fly in the ointment is the separate self. The separate self will always take us downward. The separate self will always be an obstruction to upward. I have to stop there, as there is stuff to do.... Just read zazeniac's post too. For his Mom, bees were dangerous. (Thus), all the monster's are not imaginary. Call me naive, but I try to apply the same rule to monsters that I do to those they torture. "There but for the grace of God, go I." The bee saw things very differently. I know it's just "thinking." It's a work in progress. Some things are big. There's a scene in the movie "Playing for Time," where the lead character comments about how pretty one of the female concentration camp guards is, and another character gets really angry and says the concentration camp guards are "monsters," "animals," "not human." The main character replies with " don't you realize what you're saying." |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 3, 2022 12:25:08 GMT -5
Sure, it's hard to qualify. I guess I was just thinking about how those who take the view that ultimately there is no choice, will often talk [to others] in a way that appears to suggest otherwise. That's what I'm calling unnecessarily convoluted. It just seems odd that that's how it plays out in the first place considering there is no alternative. That, that's the way 'this unfolds' in any event, under the circumstances. But especially so where it's supposedly known that there is no alternative. I guess you can dismiss all that as merely ideas about 'this' or whatever, and if you're content with that then I suppose it's fine. It's just that I sense something is awry. Yes, this is the fly in the ointment. I've tried to explore this here for 13+ years, why everything is not "~ perfect~". My view is that life is a kind of school. My view is that life is a spiral, can be an upward spiral or a downward spiral. The fly in the ointment is the separate self. The separate self will always take us downward. The separate self will always be an obstruction to upward. I have to stop there, as there is stuff to do.... Just read zazeniac's post too. For his Mom, bees were dangerous. (Thus), all the monster's are not imaginary. Yes, the word "perfect" is problematic, but in English we have no perfect alternative (pun intended). SomeNothing's "perfectly so" may be a bit closer to the mark. To grasp the choice/no-choice issue reflect upon what's happening when life presents what can be imagined as a choice. If one does NOT think about choice, what is the result? Life continues with the kind of pure action Z described about swatting the wasp away from his mother's arm. Next, consider a human who has discovered THIS and also discovered that THIS is beyond the idea or choice or no-choice. When such a human points other people toward actions that are likely to lead to the discovery of THIS, s/he has no idea or expectation regarding what they will do (whether they will look where the finger is pointing or ignore the finger entirely). She only knows what she must do, and this knowing is direct and in most cases unmediated by thoughts. The idea that life is a kind of school is an idea. The idea that life is a spiral is an idea. The idea of upward or downward is an idea. If all such ideas are left behind, then what? |
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 3, 2022 13:25:30 GMT -5
Sure, it's hard to qualify. I guess I was just thinking about how those who take the view that ultimately there is no choice, will often talk [to others] in a way that appears to suggest otherwise. That's what I'm calling unnecessarily convoluted. It just seems odd that that's how it plays out in the first place considering there is no alternative. That, that's the way 'this unfolds' in any event, under the circumstances. But especially so where it's supposedly known that there is no alternative. I guess you can dismiss all that as merely ideas about 'this' or whatever, and if you're content with that then I suppose it's fine. It's just that I sense something is awry. My mom was deathly allergic to bee stings. As a young man while attending a family picnic, a bee landed on her arm, before she could react or I could react, my hand flicked it off her arm and squished it. It happened so fast the mind didn't realize what had happened until after the fact. It basically had to reconstruct it. Things come out of "left field," a baseball reference used to describe something unexpected here in the states. I find talk of choice or predestination attempts to wrap our heads around things that are bigger than our heads. I find most good ideas come out of left field. Uncanny, a favorite word. There's no denying that there is impulsive, or unmeditated action, in various circumstances. No doubt about that either. edit. I can relate to leftfield. |
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 3, 2022 13:32:55 GMT -5
Yes, this is the fly in the ointment. I've tried to explore this here for 13+ years, why everything is not "~ perfect~". My view is that life is a kind of school. My view is that life is a spiral, can be an upward spiral or a downward spiral. The fly in the ointment is the separate self. The separate self will always take us downward. The separate self will always be an obstruction to upward. I have to stop there, as there is stuff to do.... Just read zazeniac's post too. For his Mom, bees were dangerous. (Thus), all the monster's are not imaginary. Call me naive, but I try to apply the same rule to monsters that I do to those they torture. "There but for the grace of God, go I." The bee saw things very differently. I know it's just "thinking." It's a work in progress. Some things are big. There's a scene in the movie "Playing for Time," where the lead character comments about how pretty one of the female concentration camp guards is, and another character gets really angry and says the concentration camp guards are "monsters," "animals," "not human." The main character replies with " don't you realize what you're saying." This reminds me that I was talking the other day about how the minds of even relatively simple creatures are more complex than folks generally recognise or give credit for. I don't know if anyone saw the articles about the bumblebees playing with wooden balls ... |
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 3, 2022 14:44:31 GMT -5
Yes, this is the fly in the ointment. I've tried to explore this here for 13+ years, why everything is not "~ perfect~". My view is that life is a kind of school. My view is that life is a spiral, can be an upward spiral or a downward spiral. The fly in the ointment is the separate self. The separate self will always take us downward. The separate self will always be an obstruction to upward. I have to stop there, as there is stuff to do.... Just read zazeniac's post too. For his Mom, bees were dangerous. (Thus), all the monster's are not imaginary. Yes, the word "perfect" is problematic, but in English we have no perfect alternative (pun intended). SomeNothing's "perfectly so" may be a bit closer to the mark. To grasp the choice/no-choice issue reflect upon what's happening when life presents what can be imagined as a choice. If one does NOT think about choice, what is the result? Life continues with the kind of pure action Z described about swatting the wasp away from his mother's arm. Next, consider a human who has discovered THIS and also discovered that THIS is beyond the idea or choice or no-choice. When such a human points other people toward actions that are likely to lead to the discovery of THIS, s/he has no idea or expectation regarding what they will do (whether they will look where the finger is pointing or ignore the finger entirely). She only knows what she must do, and this knowing is direct and in most cases unmediated by thoughts. The idea that life is a kind of school is an idea. The idea that life is a spiral is an idea. The idea of upward or downward is an idea. If all such ideas are left behind, then what? is hard to deconstruct, but I sense it somehow incorporates an over-concretisation of the conditioned. And there are certain implications of doing so. Regarding your question. Well, I suppose it depends on how consciously one is operating. If one is operating unconsciously or mindlessly to any extent, then there is the danger that what will happen is the unwitting reinforcement of the habitual/attachment through action (kamma). Which in buddhist terms is tantamount to continued binding to samsara and rebirth. Which in turn is subject to "the entire mass of stress and suffering". Regardless of whether the current state is one of relative peace masquerading as something more final. So the concern is that as far as true liberation is concerned, one may have declared too early and there may still be more going on under the hood than is recognised, which would have consequences in the biggest picture. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2022 20:09:00 GMT -5
Similar but not the same. Each human is uniquely different both before and after various realizations. The situation here is best described as "ordinary everyday life." Nothing unusual. Ordinary life.. but with an uncommon peace of mind.. free from worry stress or anxiety Yes, peace of mind is the hallmark of the natural state. I call it Bliss (Ananda) |
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Post by zazeniac on Nov 4, 2022 5:58:44 GMT -5
Yes, the word "perfect" is problematic, but in English we have no perfect alternative (pun intended). SomeNothing's "perfectly so" may be a bit closer to the mark. To grasp the choice/no-choice issue reflect upon what's happening when life presents what can be imagined as a choice. If one does NOT think about choice, what is the result? Life continues with the kind of pure action Z described about swatting the wasp away from his mother's arm. Next, consider a human who has discovered THIS and also discovered that THIS is beyond the idea or choice or no-choice. When such a human points other people toward actions that are likely to lead to the discovery of THIS, s/he has no idea or expectation regarding what they will do (whether they will look where the finger is pointing or ignore the finger entirely). She only knows what she must do, and this knowing is direct and in most cases unmediated by thoughts. The idea that life is a kind of school is an idea. The idea that life is a spiral is an idea. The idea of upward or downward is an idea. If all such ideas are left behind, then what? is hard to deconstruct, but I sense it somehow incorporates an over-concretisation of the conditioned. And there are certain implications of doing so. Regarding your question. Well, I suppose it depends on how consciously one is operating. If one is operating unconsciously or mindlessly to any extent, then there is the danger that what will happen is the unwitting reinforcement of the habitual/attachment through action (kamma). Which in buddhist terms is tantamount to continued binding to samsara and rebirth. Which in turn is subject to "the entire mass of stress and suffering". Regardless of whether the current state is one of relative peace masquerading as something more final. So the concern is that as far as true liberation is concerned, one may have declared too early and there may still be more going on under the hood than is recognised, which would have consequences in the biggest picture. In my context, it's probably a different response than ZD's. Considerations such as these are distractions, fools gold, as if an answer will yield some significant revelation. Whether I practice by choice or no-choice seems like fodder for mind chatter. Strangely, so does the consideration of whether practice garners a result. It seems not practice then, but a mind game. Why I like Dogen. It is not practice if it is a means to an end. Practice is enlightenment. As to prematurely stepping off the cliff, it might feel like flight, but the ground is coming up fast and hard. I can't imagine though playing with a loaded deck and not knowing it. In my everywhere practice, it's within moments that I catch the effects of vasanas, conditioning. Claiming what is not, freedom, when evidence to the contrary is at hand is a level self delusion I can't fathom. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 4, 2022 6:42:39 GMT -5
"Reefer madness," I was jabbing you. You're admired. theres no one here to jab or admire.. but there are three lovely plants flowering nicely here.. now that you mention it  |
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Post by laughter on Nov 4, 2022 6:51:26 GMT -5
Yes, the word "perfect" is problematic, but in English we have no perfect alternative (pun intended). SomeNothing's "perfectly so" may be a bit closer to the mark. To grasp the choice/no-choice issue reflect upon what's happening when life presents what can be imagined as a choice. If one does NOT think about choice, what is the result? Life continues with the kind of pure action Z described about swatting the wasp away from his mother's arm. Next, consider a human who has discovered THIS and also discovered that THIS is beyond the idea or choice or no-choice. When such a human points other people toward actions that are likely to lead to the discovery of THIS, s/he has no idea or expectation regarding what they will do (whether they will look where the finger is pointing or ignore the finger entirely). She only knows what she must do, and this knowing is direct and in most cases unmediated by thoughts. The idea that life is a kind of school is an idea. The idea that life is a spiral is an idea. The idea of upward or downward is an idea. If all such ideas are left behind, then what? is hard to deconstruct, but I sense it somehow incorporates an over-concretisation of the conditioned. And there are certain implications of doing so. Regarding your question. Well, I suppose it depends on how consciously one is operating. If one is operating unconsciously or mindlessly to any extent, then there is the danger that what will happen is the unwitting reinforcement of the habitual/attachment through action (kamma). Which in buddhist terms is tantamount to continued binding to samsara and rebirth. Which in turn is subject to "the entire mass of stress and suffering". Regardless of whether the current state is one of relative peace masquerading as something more final. So the concern is that as far as true liberation is concerned, one may have declared too early and there may still be more going on under the hood than is recognised, which would have consequences in the biggest picture. You. Are not a machine. |
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 4, 2022 14:03:49 GMT -5
This is hard to deconstruct, but I sense it somehow incorporates an over-concretisation of the conditioned. And there are certain implications of doing so. Regarding your question. Well, I suppose it depends on how consciously one is operating. If one is operating unconsciously or mindlessly to any extent, then there is the danger that what will happen is the unwitting reinforcement of the habitual/attachment through action (kamma). Which in buddhist terms is tantamount to continued binding to samsara and rebirth. Which in turn is subject to "the entire mass of stress and suffering". Regardless of whether the current state is one of relative peace masquerading as something more final. So the concern is that as far as true liberation is concerned, one may have declared too early and there may still be more going on under the hood than is recognised, which would have consequences in the biggest picture. In my context, it's probably a different response than ZD's. Considerations such as these are distractions, fools gold, as if an answer will yield some significant revelation. Whether I practice by choice or no-choice seems like fodder for mind chatter. Strangely, so does the consideration of whether practice garners a result. It seems not practice then, but a mind game. Why I like Dogen. It is not practice if it is a means to an end. Practice is enlightenment. As to prematurely stepping off the cliff, it might feel like flight, but the ground is coming up fast and hard. I can't imagine though playing with a loaded deck and not knowing it. In my everywhere practice, it's within moments that I catch the effects of vasanas, conditioning. Claiming what is not, freedom, when evidence to the contrary is at hand is a level self delusion I can't fathom. It's not really about practice it's about clarity. And it depends what the goal is. |
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 4, 2022 14:05:06 GMT -5
This is hard to deconstruct, but I sense it somehow incorporates an over-concretisation of the conditioned. And there are certain implications of doing so. Regarding your question. Well, I suppose it depends on how consciously one is operating. If one is operating unconsciously or mindlessly to any extent, then there is the danger that what will happen is the unwitting reinforcement of the habitual/attachment through action (kamma). Which in buddhist terms is tantamount to continued binding to samsara and rebirth. Which in turn is subject to "the entire mass of stress and suffering". Regardless of whether the current state is one of relative peace masquerading as something more final. So the concern is that as far as true liberation is concerned, one may have declared too early and there may still be more going on under the hood than is recognised, which would have consequences in the biggest picture. You. Are not a machine. Needless to say, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2022 22:49:33 GMT -5
The feel that "you are feeling calm in the midst of traumatic events" is actually created by you to give the feel that you remain clam while in the midst of trouble. Why didn't I create a feeling of panic instead, like the others around me did for themselves? Because you believe you can remain calm in the midst of calamity but others do not believe like that. What I am pointing here is, the entire experience is falling out of infinite just to confirm your belief. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2022 23:05:22 GMT -5
Why didn't I create a feeling of panic instead, like the others around me did for themselves? Because you believe you can remain calm in the midst of calamity but others do not believe like that. What I am pointing here is, the entire experience is falling out of infinite just to confirm your belief. How could that be so because the reaction to my circumstances was far quicker and spontaneous than any belief that could be forming about how I should be reacting. Belief requires consideration and reflection. Instant reaction doesn't work like that. But what happens if someone reacts calmly to a situation one day but then on a different day reacts with anxiety to the same kind of situation. What has changed, the belief, and if so what has changed it? The explanation you are giving about why there was a particular reaction is simply unfathomable. That's what the Bhagavad Gita says. "Unfathomable is the field of action". What about if someone says, I was surprised about how calm I was. If that reaction was brought about by a belief why would they be surprised about something they already believe? |
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