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Post by lolly on Aug 27, 2019 20:25:42 GMT -5
I'm sure that this is happening precisely in the way I experience it, but the experience I'm completely sure of takes on different degrees of congruence depending on the degree of my subtlety of perception. For example, at a grosser level of perception it seems as if one event follows another and subsequent events happen because of each other. However, when the mind becomes perceptively sublime, subtle sensations occur seemingly at random - popping in and out of existence without rhyme nor reason, and utterly 'subjectively' in the deepest sense of the word. I also assume the subtle experiences of other folk is completely different to that of mine because these occurrences seem randomly incongruent rather than related to one another. That is, at that level each moment is unpredictabe and anew, and the seemingly orderly procession of events at a grosser level is like 'order from the chaos', so to speak.
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Post by Reefs on Aug 29, 2019 0:34:11 GMT -5
I'm sure that this is happening precisely in the way I experience it, but the experience I'm completely sure of takes on different degrees of congruence depending on the degree of my subtlety of perception. For example, at a grosser level of perception it seems as if one event follows another and subsequent events happen because of each other. However, when the mind becomes perceptively sublime, subtle sensations occur seemingly at random - popping in and out of existence without rhyme nor reason, and utterly 'subjectively' in the deepest sense of the word. I also assume the subtle experiences of other folk is completely different to that of mine because these occurrences seem randomly incongruent rather than related to one another. That is, at that level each moment is unpredictabe and anew, and the seemingly orderly procession of events at a grosser level is like 'order from the chaos', so to speak.
Here are two opinions on the matter: I'd say from an intellectual perspective the case could be made for both predetermination and randomness. However, from prior to mind, it's neither predetermination nor randomness, that's why you here sages speak of a spontaneous unfolding instead.
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Post by lolly on Aug 29, 2019 2:02:48 GMT -5
I'm sure that this is happening precisely in the way I experience it, but the experience I'm completely sure of takes on different degrees of congruence depending on the degree of my subtlety of perception. For example, at a grosser level of perception it seems as if one event follows another and subsequent events happen because of each other. However, when the mind becomes perceptively sublime, subtle sensations occur seemingly at random - popping in and out of existence without rhyme nor reason, and utterly 'subjectively' in the deepest sense of the word. I also assume the subtle experiences of other folk is completely different to that of mine because these occurrences seem randomly incongruent rather than related to one another. That is, at that level each moment is unpredictabe and anew, and the seemingly orderly procession of events at a grosser level is like 'order from the chaos', so to speak.
Here are two opinions on the matter: I'd say from an intellectual perspective the case could be made for both predetermination and randomness. However, from prior to mind, it's neither predetermination nor randomness, that's why you here sages speak of a spontaneous unfolding instead. From my perspective I experience things but don't have answers for them, and I don't think the ones with reputations as teachers do either. It's just that I don't pretend to have answers and some people do, but things seem to 'just happen' at the subtle level and are seemingly orderly at a gross level. Ayone who looks closely at the seeming order in the world will find that it rests upon subtler unpredictability. That's not something I know. Contrarily, it is a scope of experience completely mystifying to me.
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Post by Reefs on Aug 29, 2019 6:38:29 GMT -5
From my perspective I experience things but don't have answers for them, and I don't think the ones with reputations as teachers do either. It's just that I don't pretend to have answers and some people do, but things seem to 'just happen' at the subtle level and are seemingly orderly at a gross level. Ayone who looks closely at the seeming order in the world will find that it rests upon subtler unpredictability. That's not something I know. Contrarily, it is a scope of experience completely mystifying to me. You are talking about 'answers' to what question(s)? Why things happen as they happen?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 29, 2019 17:03:24 GMT -5
Here are two opinions on the matter: I'd say from an intellectual perspective the case could be made for both predetermination and randomness. However, from prior to mind, it's neither predetermination nor randomness, that's why you here sages speak of a spontaneous unfolding instead. From my perspective I experience things but don't have answers for them, and I don't think the ones with reputations as teachers do either. It's just that I don't pretend to have answers and some people do, but things seem to 'just happen' at the subtle level and are seemingly orderly at a gross level. Ayone who looks closely at the seeming order in the world will find that it rests upon subtler unpredictability. That's not something I know. Contrarily, it is a scope of experience completely mystifying to me. From my experience and as it seems to me, at the subtle level there is an ordering "intelligence" in spite of seeming disorder or haphazardness at the gross level. Also from my experience this is not so easily seen, it's like catching something out of the corner of your eye, in your peripheral vision, and you look, but don't see anything there. But things turn out well (silver lining), even if they turn out badly. I noticed this as a teenager, but the knowing has come and gone over the years, but lately it is almost a hidden law. It's a kind of self-correcting flow. And just popped into my mind, recollecting, George Leonard called it The Silent Pulse. www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/86909-silent-pulse-the
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Post by lolly on Aug 29, 2019 22:52:20 GMT -5
From my perspective I experience things but don't have answers for them, and I don't think the ones with reputations as teachers do either. It's just that I don't pretend to have answers and some people do, but things seem to 'just happen' at the subtle level and are seemingly orderly at a gross level. Ayone who looks closely at the seeming order in the world will find that it rests upon subtler unpredictability. That's not something I know. Contrarily, it is a scope of experience completely mystifying to me. You are talking about 'answers' to what question(s)? Why things happen as they happen? Answers sound like 'it's all God', 'It's all the self' and similar statments that are popular (probably because they are pithy, rather than true). I don't think anyone knows why, and maybe there is no reason at all. Of course there seems to be reasons for things happening at the grosser level, but at the subtle level, there seems not to be.
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Post by lolly on Aug 29, 2019 22:59:05 GMT -5
From my perspective I experience things but don't have answers for them, and I don't think the ones with reputations as teachers do either. It's just that I don't pretend to have answers and some people do, but things seem to 'just happen' at the subtle level and are seemingly orderly at a gross level. Ayone who looks closely at the seeming order in the world will find that it rests upon subtler unpredictability. That's not something I know. Contrarily, it is a scope of experience completely mystifying to me. From my experience and as it seems to me, at the subtle level there is an ordering "intelligence" in spite of seeming disorder or haphazardness at the gross level. Also from my experience this is not so easily seen, it's like catching something out of the corner of your eye, in your peripheral vision, and you look, but don't see anything there. But things turn out well (silver lining), even if they turn out badly. I noticed this as a teenager, but the knowing has come and gone over the years, but lately it is almost a hidden law. It's a kind of self-correcting flow. And just popped into my mind, recollecting, George Leonard called it The Silent Pulse. www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/86909-silent-pulse-theBut there seems to be order at the grosser level, and the subtle level of experience seems random, so if there is an ordering intelligence, it must be making order from underlying chaos, and I actually find that plausible, at least to the extent that the mind seems to construct an orderly world from completely unpredictable subtle events.
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Post by Reefs on Aug 31, 2019 11:12:38 GMT -5
You are talking about 'answers' to what question(s)? Why things happen as they happen? Answers sound like 'it's all God', 'It's all the self' and similar statments that are popular (probably because they are pithy, rather than true). I don't think anyone knows why, and maybe there is no reason at all. Of course there seems to be reasons for things happening at the grosser level, but at the subtle level, there seems not to be. That question is an existential question. And existential questions don't have 'answers'. At some point, the questioner and the question will just disappear. And that's it. That's how existential questions get resolved or 'answered'. So in that sense, there's no need for these kind of answers you've mentioned. As UG says here, if you want answers to existential questions, go see a scholar, hehe.
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2019 11:52:14 GMT -5
From my experience and as it seems to me, at the subtle level there is an ordering "intelligence" in spite of seeming disorder or haphazardness at the gross level. Also from my experience this is not so easily seen, it's like catching something out of the corner of your eye, in your peripheral vision, and you look, but don't see anything there. But things turn out well (silver lining), even if they turn out badly. I noticed this as a teenager, but the knowing has come and gone over the years, but lately it is almost a hidden law. It's a kind of self-correcting flow. And just popped into my mind, recollecting, George Leonard called it The Silent Pulse. www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/86909-silent-pulse-theBut there seems to be order at the grosser level, and the subtle level of experience seems random, so if there is an ordering intelligence, it must be making order from underlying chaos, and I actually find that plausible, at least to the extent that the mind seems to construct an orderly world from completely unpredictable subtle events. my experience is the reverse. At the gross level there can seem to be randomness/chaos, then at the subtle levels I see ether divine ordering/intelligence or I see spontaneity (depends on which way I squint).
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Post by zendancer on Aug 31, 2019 12:37:26 GMT -5
Answers sound like 'it's all God', 'It's all the self' and similar statments that are popular (probably because they are pithy, rather than true). I don't think anyone knows why, and maybe there is no reason at all. Of course there seems to be reasons for things happening at the grosser level, but at the subtle level, there seems not to be. That question is an existential question. And existential questions don't have 'answers'. At some point, the questioner and the question will just disappear. And that's it. That's how existential questions get resolved or 'answered'. So in that sense, there's no need for these kind of answers you've mentioned. As UG says here, if you want answers to existential questions, go see a scholar, hehe. I have a slightly different perspective. Not better or worse, just different. Perhaps that's because the questions that arose here were always extremely specific and the answers always seemed to be equally specific and easily stated. It may also be because of an exposure to Zen koans, all of which have simple definitive answers that can be discovered via silent contemplation. As one example, this body/mind's final existential question was, "How is it possible to remain in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently?" By that point in the search the body/mind had had many experiences of what it conceived as "unity consciousness"--experiences during which the "me" as a separate observer disappeared. This happened during deep states of samadhi, during cosmic consciousness experiences, while "being in the zone," etc. After these experiences ended, "I" always seemed to come back to a "me in here" looking at a "world out there." I therefore wondered how it might be possible to live in that state of empty non-dual awareness permanently. While on a solo retreat during which that question was periodically pondered, the past sense of a "me" totally disappeared, and it was then realized that there had never been a "me" in the way that had been imagined. The answer to the existential question was then obvious. The question had been based upon an erroneous assumption--that there was a "me" who occasionally disappeared into a state of unity, but afterwards seemed to return to a sense of separateness. The specific "answer" to the question could be stated as, "What I am has always been, and always is, in a state of unity consciousness even though it might not seem that way." I then knew that selfhood was a kind of thought structure that can permanently vanish. FWIW, the old sense of being a separate volitional entity inside a body never returned, and life became a flow of empty isness that this body/mind had only experienced one time in the past. That prior experience lasted about two and a half days following a CC experience after which the old sense of selfhood eventually returned. This body/mind pursued hundreds of existential questions during a long search for truth, and all of those questions ultimately had simple answers that were discovered through non-conceptual realizations.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 31, 2019 12:44:28 GMT -5
But there seems to be order at the grosser level, and the subtle level of experience seems random, so if there is an ordering intelligence, it must be making order from underlying chaos, and I actually find that plausible, at least to the extent that the mind seems to construct an orderly world from completely unpredictable subtle events. my experience is the reverse. At the gross level there can seem to be randomness/chaos, then at the subtle levels I see ether divine ordering/intelligence or I see spontaneity (depends on which way I squint). Haha! I see incomprehensible intelligence and perfection wherever I look. No chaos at all.
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2019 14:31:31 GMT -5
my experience is the reverse. At the gross level there can seem to be randomness/chaos, then at the subtle levels I see ether divine ordering/intelligence or I see spontaneity (depends on which way I squint). Haha! I see incomprehensible intelligence and perfection wherever I look. No chaos at all. Take a look at our current politics (UK), and I can assure you that you will see some chaos
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Post by lolly on Aug 31, 2019 17:41:04 GMT -5
Answers sound like 'it's all God', 'It's all the self' and similar statments that are popular (probably because they are pithy, rather than true). I don't think anyone knows why, and maybe there is no reason at all. Of course there seems to be reasons for things happening at the grosser level, but at the subtle level, there seems not to be. That question is an existential question. And existential questions don't have 'answers'. At some point, the questioner and the question will just disappear. And that's it. That's how existential questions get resolved or 'answered'. So in that sense, there's no need for these kind of answers you've mentioned. As UG says here, if you want answers to existential questions, go see a scholar, hehe. He's a strangely truthful fellow, UG.
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Post by lolly on Aug 31, 2019 17:41:49 GMT -5
Haha! I see incomprehensible intelligence and perfection wherever I look. No chaos at all. Take a look at our current politics (UK), and I can assure you that you will see some chaos What's with world leaders' hair these days?
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Post by lolly on Aug 31, 2019 17:49:23 GMT -5
But there seems to be order at the grosser level, and the subtle level of experience seems random, so if there is an ordering intelligence, it must be making order from underlying chaos, and I actually find that plausible, at least to the extent that the mind seems to construct an orderly world from completely unpredictable subtle events. my experience is the reverse. At the gross level there can seem to be randomness/chaos, then at the subtle levels I see ether divine ordering/intelligence or I see spontaneity (depends on which way I squint). Well, due to that randomness or unpredictability of subtle events I call it chaos. On the gross scale it seems like one thing leads to another, and of course accurate predictions can be made, but on subtler levels there is no way of knowing what's going to happen.
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