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Post by Reefs on Sept 10, 2020 11:49:40 GMT -5
Attachment to fortune, power, fame, or any other distraction is a dead end. The pursuit of these is usually driven by dysfunction. It doesn't make these things or those who acquire them necessarily unconscious. That's the 2nd noble truth, isn't it? Clinging to life means losing it.
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Post by laughter on Sept 10, 2020 12:02:28 GMT -5
Yes, wealth is an interesting manifestation, generally speaking, in energetic terms. I'd guess that most people eventually associate it with suffering (from the lack of it), to one degree or another, at some point in their lives. And, as the Buddha pointed out, suffering is a succinct bottom-line to the existential question. In spiritual terms, I'd opine that it's the moral judgements centered on wealth that would create the most noise in terms of potentially obscuring or distracting from any conscious process of existential questioning. And this cuts both ways, as it's just as natural to have contempt for the poor as it is to hate the rich. The insight that wealth is ultimately neither good nor evil, any more than a tornado or the Sun are either good or evil, is a point of potential relative clarity on the issue. Moral values is a very complex topic. I'd say at its basis, universal moral principles that can be found in all cultures all over the world, do (or at least attempt to) reflect some kind of natural universal principle. When it comes to morality and material wealth though, I do see some other factors at play here, like politics and economics. Sure, similar to the nondual pointers that way. Of course, how that plays out, well, that's a different story. heh heh
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2020 13:05:42 GMT -5
The money thing is fascinating because of how most people think about money. Warren Buffett has accumulated hundreds of millions, but it's just a game to him. He plans on giving something like 99% of it to the Gates Foundation. He could have given away tons of money to charitable causes over the years, but why do that when he can compound the money at 19.5% (his average rate of compounding over the last 50 years), and end up giving away a lot more money to charitable causes after his death? As for Tolle, the last I heard his net worth was about $12 million, not $70 million, but even if it's $70 million, the guy doesn't drive a Ferrari, and from what I've heard he lives pretty simply. He's probably waiting to find out what Source is going to do with the money, which is what most sages do who have more money than they need. A good book that gives some insight into this matter is "Everyday Enlightenment" because it highlights the lives of seven different sages who vary in financial wealth from having no money at all to having a lot. One individual was a social worker and one individual was a businessperson who ran a large company. People have lots of ideas about this topic, but sages don't think about it in the same way. Agreed. Poor people often think that having a lot of money will solve their problems. And that's mostly not the case because increasing levels of abundance also give new vantage points which create new desires and so the goal post keeps moving as before. So if they don't evolve along with their increasing abundance, it will most likely only amplify their already existing problems and they may actually be worse off than before. Being poor has its pros and cons. Being rich also has its pros and cons. What I find strange though is people believing that being filthy reach is necessarily unspiritual. That's ridiculous! This probably goes back to people having strange ideas about what the purpose of life is. And besides, what in this world is not spirit? There have been studies on how much money it takes to make one happy, $70,000-$75,000 a year. Having money above that doesn't make anyone happier. I'd say most of the "middle class"-almost rich live stretched just beyond their means. I worked for a small electrical company that did mostly custom homes (some commercial work). The houses we wired ranged from about $180,000 to $1 million, a scattered few $1 million+. At the end of 2007, December, the bottom fell out of the building market here. The builder I worked for most of the time was building then in a very exclusive neighborhood, houses from $400,000-$800,000. We wired 2 houses the end of 2007 and two in 2008. Those houses didn't sell, they sat for a few years, and that contractor built only about 2-3 houses a year afterwards, and then only sold houses, no spec houses. (Just BTW, the largest house we ever wired was 20,000 sq ft in Piper Glen, previous the the economic 2008 collapse. I only helped on it). If you recall the economic collapse didn't occur until Sept. 2008, so the story above was just a preview of what was to come. (And if you also recall, the basic problem was mortgage back securities of one sort or another, mortgages chopped up into little pieces and spread out over hundreds of packages, essentially buried so deep they couldn't be extracted, so that when people defaulted on those loans, they became toxic, basically polluting the whole economy. And many if not most of these loans were sold to people knowing they would eventually default. Basically pay interest-only loans. Ninja loans, no income, no job, no assets. A figurative house of cards made of houses. Greedy salesmen as the source). I now get to my point. I was regularly in that neighborhood, Kingsmead, the next few years. What did I see? There were numerous houses for sale. What does that mean? It means those "rich" people were living right up to or just beyond their means. With a job loss with the economy collapse they could no longer afford the house they were living in. But what happened to housing during the economic collapse? New construction virtually stopped, but house sales of any kind virtually stopped. Why? Because home buying and selling is a chain of events. You have "starter homes", 1000 sq ft to 1500-1800 sq ft. Then you have 1800 sq ft to 2500 sq ft, then you have 2500 sq ft to 3000 sq ft, then you have 3000 sq ft to 5000 sq ft, then you have 5000 sq ft+. But basically, to buy a bigger house you have to sell your house to someone who wants a bigger house. Kingsmead was the 3000-5000 sq ft range. Normally the flow is everybody wanting to have a larger house. To move from a smaller house to a bigger house, you have to sell your house. So there is basically a whole chain reaction, a set of dominos, the person below your level has to sell their house in order to buy your level, and so all the way up and down the chain. In 2008 and for about 5 years afterwards the whole chain stopped. And many people couldn't sell anyway because they were below water, they owed more on their house than it was worth. So many people just had no recourse except to default on their loan. The point? Best to live well within your means and save the extra, save for a rainy day. But the majority of people want just a little more. It's called greed. But money is basically falling into Tolle's lap, so I wouldn't call him greedy. But there is a point when enough is enough. It all depends upon what you value. Where your heart is there your treasure is. And where you spend your time there your treasure is.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2020 13:54:48 GMT -5
I forget the exact statement about money made by Dave Ramsey, but it's something like, "Money can only be used in four ways; it can be spent, saved, invested, or given away." In eastern cultures people who were considered "holy" were people who gave away everything, and in the monastic traditions, monks owned nothing and often had to beg for food. One of the reasons that many Hindu seekers supposedly shunned Ramesh Balsekar was because he had been a bank president and didn't fit people's idea of a holy person because he had been a businessperson, had handled money, and was not a penniless sanayasin. In western cultures people often note that Jesus said the ATTACHMENT to money is the real problem. There is also the idea of "giving back" if one has been financially successful. IOW, you can't help people who need financial help if you haven't first put yourself into a position where you can offer such help. There's also the mystery aspect that applies to money as well as everything else. When Source is known to be the only actor on the stage, who knows what it will do? And finally, there is the "not-knowing" aspect of sageness. This is probably why, when Tolle was asked about what he planned to do with the money that had been generated by his book sales during an interview, he replied by saying something like, "I don't know because I haven't made any plans at this point." Taking all of these issues into consideration, perhaps the best question one might ask is, "If a wealthy sage lost everything through some quirk of fate, would it matter to the sage?" Would there be any concern over the loss? If not, then that would certainly show that there was no attachment to the money, and it would be clear that the sage sees money or wealth in a significantly different way than most people. I don't know Tolle personally, but if I had to guess, I'd say that sooner or later he'll set up a foundation to propagate his basic message about the importance of getting free from ideas and waking up to one's True Self. Most of the major well-known ND teachers have set up foundations that support prison ministries and a wide variety of charitable activities as well as activities that support their main message. Don Oakley, for example, was a successful engineer and contractor, and after he awakened, he sold his business and took all of his money and used it to build a large retreat center that he now makes available to different spiritual groups as well as for his own teachings. His only interest is in helping other people find what he found. I'm guessing that that is a rather common result in western cultures, and I would be surprised if Tolle doesn't do something similar in the future. I recently caught a very good movie on cable called Woman Walks Ahead, 2017. It's about the last year of Sitting Bull's life and the rich lady from the east coast who came to paint his portrait, they became friends. He stated something I've never heard before (having read a considerable amount about Native Americans). He told Woman Walks Ahead (a name painter-lady was gifted with) White people consider the wealthiest, those who collect the most, whereas we consider the wealthiest, those who give the most away. (Incidentally, I heard many years ago about the massacre at Wounded Knee, but never knew the circumstances surrounding it. The end of the film explains what happened).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2020 14:00:43 GMT -5
Can you explain to me what doesn't resonate with you about Tolle's bank balance? What's wrong with people thriving financially from their work? And his message is still the same, isn't it? He still teaches what he taught when he sat on that park bench with no money. I don't get it. It's to do with 'flow'. If Tolle has huge sums of money continuously flowing to him, I think it would be good for him if it was also flowing out of him ( I'm not concerned about him hoarding money from an altrustic sense, I just think it's probably not serving him to hoard it away). I don't buy the idea of these 'sages' being beyond growth, whether it's Tolle, Niz, Ramana etc...I think the universe always provides new opportunities for spiritual growth. I've always liked Tolle's message and find him a very sweet guy, but I also don't put him beyond having spiritual lessons to learn from. Yes.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2020 14:21:33 GMT -5
Sure, and there are even other factors that haven't yet been mentioned, such as other major interests. Sages are not all one-dimensional. Although their primary interest may lie in pointing people to the truth, many sages in western cultures have other interests as well. As a child, I had many wonderful experiences via a children's museum in my city and also through science fairs. Remembering those experiences as an adult led me to donate money every year to science fairs and children' museums. Later, as a result of a financial enlightenment type of realization, I saw the benefit in educating people financially, and I hope in the future to set up some sort of educational foundation with that purpose in mind (that idea based on the old adage of "give a man a fish, he eats for one day, but teach him to fish and he can feed himself forever"). I know for a fact that there are contemporary ND teachers who similarly have more than one major interest. Another factor might also be the family situation a sage is part of. In the past sages tended to be single monks with no families, but today we have hundreds of sages who have extended families that may need financial help, etc. These things wouldn't be a significant factor for someone with 70 million bucks, but it might be a factor for someone with 2 to 5 million bucks. In short, any snap judgment involving the words "should" or "ought" usually indicates a superficial understanding of the complexity and mysteriousness of THIS. The manifestation of THIS is beyond the grasp of intellection. Those different interests and how they play out and manifest before and after awakening is basically what I think SDP was getting at with his three gunas theory. There's no right or wrong or should and should nots involved either. Just briefly. The 3 gunas are the "building blocks" of descending involution, the first link of downward causation from the Whole or the Unmanifest. After chains of triads of cause and effect, the universe ends up with man (or otherwise called intelligent "three-brained-beings"). At the bottom, nonvolition can be recognized, there is no I that did anything, everything merely happened. In any one individual the ascent can begin, back upwards, to Wholeness, this is the evolution of consciousness. The ascent is based on reversing the process (the way up is the way down, shifting from involution to evolution), becoming free of the chain of causation. (Metaphorically, this is shifting from classical physics to quantum physics). So yes, you are basically correct, concerning downward. Upward, whatever helps one to wake up, is right and a should. And choice, only enters here. (For example, ATA-T is a choice).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2020 14:32:38 GMT -5
Moral values is a very complex topic. I'd say at its basis, universal moral principles that can be found in all cultures all over the world, do (or at least attempt to) reflect some kind of natural universal principle. When it comes to morality and material wealth though, I do see some other factors at play here, like politics and economics. Sure, and there are even other factors that haven't yet been mentioned, such as other major interests. Sages are not all one-dimensional. Although their primary interest may lie in pointing people to the truth, many sages in western cultures have other interests as well. As a child, I had many wonderful experiences via a children's museum in my city and also through science fairs. Remembering those experiences as an adult led me to donate money every year to science fairs and children' museums. Later, as a result of a financial enlightenment type of realization, I saw the benefit in educating people financially, and I hope in the future to set up some sort of educational foundation with that purpose in mind (that idea based on the old adage of "give a man a fish, he eats for one day, but teach him to fish and he can feed himself forever"). I know for a fact that there are contemporary ND teachers who similarly have more than one major interest. Another factor might also be the family situation a sage is part of. In the past sages tended to be single monks with no families, but today we have hundreds of sages who have extended families that may need financial help, etc. These things wouldn't be a significant factor for someone with 70 million bucks, but it might be a factor for someone with 2 to 5 million bucks. In short, any snap judgment involving the words "should" or "ought" usually indicates a superficial understanding of the complexity and mysteriousness of THIS. The manifestation of THIS is beyond the grasp of intellection. Yes, you helped me immeasurably by teaching about Index Funds. Thanks. (Squeeze in some time to write the book. You could publish it on Amazon for virtually nothing, via print on demand).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2020 16:18:12 GMT -5
The money thing is fascinating because of how most people think about money. Warren Buffett has accumulated hundreds of millions, but it's just a game to him. He plans on giving something like 99% of it to the Gates Foundation. He could have given away tons of money to charitable causes over the years, but why do that when he can compound the money at 19.5% (his average rate of compounding over the last 50 years), and end up giving away a lot more money to charitable causes after his death? As for Tolle, the last I heard his net worth was about $12 million, not $70 million, but even if it's $70 million, the guy doesn't drive a Ferrari, and from what I've heard he lives pretty simply. He's probably waiting to find out what Source is going to do with the money, which is what most sages do who have more money than they need. A good book that gives some insight into this matter is "Everyday Enlightenment" because it highlights the lives of seven different sages who vary in financial wealth from having no money at all to having a lot. One individual was a social worker and one individual was a businessperson who ran a large company. People have lots of ideas about this topic, but sages don't think about it in the same way. I've been thinking about how I view money, wondering if I'm too cheap/miserly, too focused on limiting expenses rather than generating income, and if that gums up some life flow. For years I've been good about not buying pointless things, or going into debt, the way some people do. Recently I've actually been traveling the world as a digital nomad, partly because it was *cheaper* than living in the US. I could rent nice airbnbs for very little in some countries. (Plus avoiding car costs, no utilities, lower health insurance.) I'm back in the US now focused on the motel cost, thinking of renting a room and how to save money, but it makes everything so awkward and takes all this time and limits flexibility. I have a decent job in software work, so maybe better to focus on being productive, creative - the income side of things instead of the expenses. Maybe allowing some more "bleed" would allow life to flow better, and the time/energy for income would make up for it. I'm thinking out loud I guess, but I wonder if any of these money wizards talk about this balance in focus between saving money vs producing it.
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Post by laughter on Feb 3, 2021 5:12:53 GMT -5
The Tao of Politics is the quest for the appearance of personal influence over events and other people, so, it is a falsity, premised on a falsity.
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Post by laughter on Feb 3, 2021 7:58:59 GMT -5
Sometimes, poetry is inadvertent. That is to say, the poet don't know they's a poet as they poem. This is very noticeable when some folks write about the existential truth, about oneness, about surrender, wonder, beauty or clarity, or any one of a number of topics, each, specific to their own past ways and means. It even happens in venues that have nothing to do with spirituality, much less nonduality.
In that poetry, the truth is expressed. All else, is varying degrees of falseness. This isn't to suggest the advice to refrain from either reading/listening to or expressing the falsity. But, seeing the false as false is a direction, as in, a line on a compass. And there isn't just one map. There is relative falsity that has an absolute material point of reference - ie: the province of the scientists, and then, there is relative falsity that has only a passing relationship with that absolute reference - ie: the province of lawyers and news editors. And then, there is existential falsity.
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Post by inavalan on Feb 3, 2021 16:30:04 GMT -5
You can't rely on intellect to figure out fake news.
You have a chance to filter some of those out if you avoid the fake news peddlers. They are those that regularly bring in you fear, anger, hate. They give you those for free, because you pay dearly in manipulation.
Another tool, if you have access to it, is your intuition, but don't confuse it with intellect or emotions. Most of us are quite impaired in their intuition.
In most cases, you can't rely on your inner source of knowledge and guidance for such things like fake news, and other interests your ego has. You make get only general pieces of wisdom like "don't waste your time" ...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 17:44:46 GMT -5
You can't rely on intellect to figure out fake news. You have a chance to filter some of those out if you avoid the fake news peddlers. They are those that regularly bring in you fear, anger, hate. They give you those for free, because you pay dearly in manipulation. Another tool, if you have access to it, is your intuition, but don't confuse it with intellect or emotions. Most of us are quite impaired in their intuition.
In most cases, you can't rely on your inner source of knowledge and guidance for such things like fake news, and other interests your ego has. You make get only general pieces of wisdom like "don't waste your time" ... Clarissa Pinkola Estés calls that being Instinct Injured. "The term "instinct-injured" refers to one whose pain is not seen nor is it responded to with love, appropriateness, kindness, creativity or compassion. Such individuals lose their sense of uniqueness, individuality, compassion and empathy, creativity, and a real, loving, trusting connection with life. They lose their sense of humor, singing voice, and the ability to create without fear of failure or criticism. Furthermore, they develop adaptive, protective false-self systems or sub-personalities that further alienate them from their authentic selves." To heal such an impairment is to take 'very' seriously all creative impulses.
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Post by inavalan on Feb 3, 2021 18:37:06 GMT -5
You can't rely on intellect to figure out fake news. You have a chance to filter some of those out if you avoid the fake news peddlers. They are those that regularly bring in you fear, anger, hate. They give you those for free, because you pay dearly in manipulation. Another tool, if you have access to it, is your intuition, but don't confuse it with intellect or emotions. Most of us are quite impaired in their intuition.
In most cases, you can't rely on your inner source of knowledge and guidance for such things like fake news, and other interests your ego has. You make get only general pieces of wisdom like "don't waste your time" ... Clarissa Pinkola Estés calls that being Instinct Injured. "The term "instinct-injured" refers to one whose pain is not seen nor is it responded to with love, appropriateness, kindness, creativity or compassion. Such individuals lose their sense of uniqueness, individuality, compassion and empathy, creativity, and a real, loving, trusting connection with life. They lose their sense of humor, singing voice, and the ability to create without fear of failure or criticism. Furthermore, they develop adaptive, protective false-self systems or sub-personalities that further alienate them from their authentic selves." To heal such an impairment is to take 'very' seriously all creative impulses. I use "intuition" and "instinct" in a different way than the author you quoted. The way I define these terms, there is a progression inside every domain of consciousness included by the physical realm: instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition. For example: - plants, developing instincts
- animals, dominated by instincts, developing emotions
- man, mastered instincts, dominated by emotions, developing intellect
- (next) mastered instincts, mastered emotions, dominated by intellect, developing intuition
Those are bell distributions, not step, and overlap with long tails. There are plants that have incipient emotions, animals with incipient intellect, men with incipient intuition; as there are men dominated by instincts. Same kind of progression can be observed (almost ?) in everything. For example inside each one of the kingdoms described above, or in the life of the average man (infant, child, teenager, youth, adult, elderly), or in the life of each man, ...
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Post by inavalan on Feb 4, 2021 0:09:08 GMT -5
You can't rely on intellect to figure out fake news. You have a chance to filter some of those out if you avoid the fake news peddlers. They are those that regularly bring in you fear, anger, hate. They give you those for free, because you pay dearly in manipulation. Another tool, if you have access to it, is your intuition, but don't confuse it with intellect or emotions. Most of us are quite impaired in their intuition. In most cases, you can't rely on your inner source of knowledge and guidance for such things like fake news, and other interests your ego has. You make get only general pieces of wisdom like "don't waste your time" ...
The New York Times published a column recommending Biden establish a " reality czar" to combat "disinformation." This isn't funny. There is a reality-show competition: who comes with the stupidest idea.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2021 6:31:20 GMT -5
Clarissa Pinkola Estés calls that being Instinct Injured. "The term "instinct-injured" refers to one whose pain is not seen nor is it responded to with love, appropriateness, kindness, creativity or compassion. Such individuals lose their sense of uniqueness, individuality, compassion and empathy, creativity, and a real, loving, trusting connection with life. They lose their sense of humor, singing voice, and the ability to create without fear of failure or criticism. Furthermore, they develop adaptive, protective false-self systems or sub-personalities that further alienate them from their authentic selves." To heal such an impairment is to take 'very' seriously all creative impulses. I use "intuition" and "instinct" in a different way than the author you quoted. The way I define these terms, there is a progression inside every domain of consciousness included by the physical realm: instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition. For example: - plants, developing instincts
- animals, dominated by instincts, developing emotions
- man, mastered instincts, dominated by emotions, developing intellect
- (next) mastered instincts, mastered emotions, dominated by intellect, developing intuition
Those are bell distributions, not step, and overlap with long tails. There are plants that have incipient emotions, animals with incipient intellect, men with incipient intuition; as there are men dominated by instincts. Same kind of progression can be observed (almost ?) in everything. For example inside each one of the kingdoms described above, or in the life of the average man (infant, child, teenager, youth, adult, elderly), or in the life of each man, ... www.amazon.com/Psychics-Interviews-Vegetables-Flowers-2008-03-01/dp/B01FIY050M
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