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Post by krsnaraja on Oct 2, 2017 20:46:37 GMT -5
The ego is my identity that separates me from the others. I am identified as a physician who heals. Yet the reality is that I am a spirit/soul encaged in a material body which includes the mind. My false identification with the mind which thinks like a physician is the ego I am identified with. But actually I am the self/spirit/soul not the ego-physician. My true constitutional position is that of a servant. According to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Master whom I serve with devotion is Krsna, the Supreme Spirit/Soul/Self who I believe is transcendental and inconceivable to the mind. In short, I am a servant of Krsna. This is the kind of ego I desire and be identified with. Yet I chose the role/ego of a physician who heals the sick to earn a living. The mind/body needs material support to survive. I use this designation " physician" as tool for me to be accepted in the family as breadwinner and to be of use to the society at large. I wear a mask, so to speak but deep inside I am only a servant of Krsna. That's my humble position/ego in life.
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Post by enigma on Oct 2, 2017 21:56:01 GMT -5
As is the high one gets from a drug. My point is it's not true you're not interested in happiness. I didn't say I wasn't interested in happiness, I said it wasn't my primary goal. Happiness happens, when you pursue the genuine. You pursue whatever because it makes you happy. Happiness is your ultimate goal. It's just that denying that makes your pursuit seem more noble. The goal of all human endeavor is to be happy.
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Post by enigma on Oct 2, 2017 22:15:34 GMT -5
Even I remember having had this conversation before. I'm not understanding how you get from "there is no doer" to "it doesn't matter how life was lived". All the "nondualists" here have a double standard. OTOH they say, nobody does anything, the "person" is merely a flow of the whole universe (or some such). But then OTOH they say you have to live as if you are a doer. In one or the other there is delusion, nobody can believe both and live as if both are true. So it's not me you have a problem, it's yourself and the others. I'm saying the question makes no sense because it can't be both ways. You (plural) can't be striving to live in a certain way, IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE OR SEE IT TO BE TRUE THAT THERE ISN'T A ~DOING~ sELF. If you lived from both you would be living constantly in laughter's double-bind. (There is no doer, yet I am doing). {But yes, people live this way daily. There is an ~appliance~ that allows this, they're called buffers. They allow one to live in contradictions. They allow one to not-see the contradictions}. That's the (final) point I was making. The two (expressed above), together, must necessarily mean it can't matter how life is lived, because any doing-self is illusory, just isn't. And all this must necessarily mean the guy who killed 50+ and wounded 400+ people last night in LV was merely a natural flow of the universe at that moment. But somebody here is going to say, Oh, no!, no!, no!, that's not what we're saying (always happens when I raise this point). You can't have your cake and eat it too. The solution to the apparent dilemma you pose is in the complete understanding of the meaning of nonvolition. I've been promising Laughter for years that I would write an explanation and failed to fulfill my promise, so I take complete responsibility. What you do is a function of your conditioning only, and as such you have no volition, but what others say and do is part of that conditioning, and so it matters very much what peeps say and do. It matters very much how life is lived because everybody is conditioned by you, and you are conditioned by everybody else. You are told to live your life responsibly because if you conclude that it doesn't matter what you do, that bit of conditioning will cause you to act destructively in the world. The one who truly understands nonvolition also understands his responsibility. There is no paradox or contradiction. I'm happy to have finally cleared up the nonvolition issue once and for all. It makes me happy.
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Post by enigma on Oct 2, 2017 22:24:47 GMT -5
So you don't Know yourself well enough? That's a reply to me from within your paradigm. Otherwise, your logic is obviously faulty. (Don't you see your logic is faulty?) .
It wasn't a logical conclusion, more like a rhetorical reflection. You don't know that your goal is to be happy because you don't know yourself well enough. With all the years of self reflection you've done it should be an easy matter to notice that pursuing your drug high satisfies you. It fulfills you. It gives your life more meaning. It may even have saved your life. This is what it means to say it makes you happy. It's not very low on the priority list, it's the top priority.
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Post by enigma on Oct 2, 2017 22:27:23 GMT -5
Ego doesn't see, ego doesn't understand. (Ego is what is seen). If it doesn't see or understand then how can it be very Wile E? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play the bait and switch? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play hide and seek? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play the shell game? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play spiritual materialism with the best? Sounds like one of those entityless entities.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2017 22:40:29 GMT -5
Ego doesn't see, ego doesn't understand. (Ego is what is seen). If it doesn't see or understand then how can it be very Wile E? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play the bait and switch? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play hide and seek? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play the shell game? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play spiritual materialism with the best? Ego is very complex, lots of bells and whistles, levers and pulleys, but it is wholly a mechanical process. That's why it's imaginary, not-real, fictitious. Ego is just very complicated programming. Some are more complicated than others, but I bet you encounter someone almost every day, where you can see the wheels turning, you see preprogrammed responses.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2017 22:55:36 GMT -5
I didn't say I wasn't interested in happiness, I said it wasn't my primary goal. Happiness happens, when you pursue the genuine. You pursue whatever because it makes you happy. Happiness is your ultimate goal. It's just that denying that makes your pursuit seem more noble. The goal of all human endeavor is to be happy. That's obviously your view, and you see life only through your own view (I've visited your web site a time or two, years ago), it's like wearing "happiness-colored-glasses", you lack the capacity to be able to enter into the position of another. You don't recognize you are projecting your own view of life on-to me. Life 101, happiness always is impossible. But for a time, one can imagine they are happy. Imagination can satisfy the mind and emotions. But imagination...is imagination. Imagination is almost as powerful as truth.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2017 23:04:58 GMT -5
All the "nondualists" here have a double standard. OTOH they say, nobody does anything, the "person" is merely a flow of the whole universe (or some such). But then OTOH they say you have to live as if you are a doer. In one or the other there is delusion, nobody can believe both and live as if both are true. So it's not me you have a problem, it's yourself and the others. I'm saying the question makes no sense because it can't be both ways. You (plural) can't be striving to live in a certain way, IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE OR SEE IT TO BE TRUE THAT THERE ISN'T A ~DOING~ sELF. If you lived from both you would be living constantly in laughter's double-bind. (There is no doer, yet I am doing). {But yes, people live this way daily. There is an ~appliance~ that allows this, they're called buffers. They allow one to live in contradictions. They allow one to not-see the contradictions}. That's the (final) point I was making. The two (expressed above), together, must necessarily mean it can't matter how life is lived, because any doing-self is illusory, just isn't. And all this must necessarily mean the guy who killed 50+ and wounded 400+ people last night in LV was merely a natural flow of the universe at that moment. But somebody here is going to say, Oh, no!, no!, no!, that's not what we're saying (always happens when I raise this point). You can't have your cake and eat it too. The solution to the apparent dilemma you pose is in the complete understanding of the meaning of nonvolition. I've been promising Laughter for years that I would write an explanation and failed to fulfill my promise, so I take complete responsibility. What you do is a function of your conditioning only, and as such you have no volition, but what others say and do is part of that conditioning, and so it matters very much what peeps say and do. It matters very much how life is lived because everybody is conditioned by you, and you are conditioned by everybody else. You are told to live your life responsibly because if you conclude that it doesn't matter what you do, that bit of conditioning will cause you to act destructively in the world. The one who truly understands nonvolition also understands his responsibility. There is no paradox or contradiction. I'm happy to have finally cleared up the nonvolition issue once and for all. It makes me happy. That is absolutely accurate, Gurdjieff couldn't have said it better. Nonvolition = [our] mechanicalness. But there is a but, you don't go far enough. There is a part of us that is not conditioned. If we can find and access that, and learn to live through that, we can some day be free. But it is a long and difficult journey, nearly impossible. Now you can ask yourself, would you rather be happy, or free? (And what would you be willing to pay for freedom?)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2017 23:11:18 GMT -5
If it doesn't see or understand then how can it be very Wile E? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play the bait and switch? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play hide and seek? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play the shell game? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play spiritual materialism with the best? Sounds like one of those entityless entities. Yes. (See reply to bakk, same question).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2017 23:13:49 GMT -5
That's a reply to me from within your paradigm. Otherwise, your logic is obviously faulty. (Don't you see your logic is faulty?) .
It wasn't a logical conclusion, more like a rhetorical reflection. You don't know that your goal is to be happy because you don't know yourself well enough. With all the years of self reflection you've done it should be an easy matter to notice that pursuing your drug high satisfies you. It fulfills you. It gives your life more meaning. It may even have saved your life. This is what it means to say it makes you happy. It's not very low on the priority list, it's the top priority. You are entitled to your opinion. (Issue already spoken to).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 0:31:34 GMT -5
If it doesn't see or understand then how can it be very Wile E? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play the bait and switch? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play hide and seek? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play the shell game? If it doesn't see or understand then how can it play spiritual materialism with the best? Ego is very complex, lots of bells and whistles, levers and pulleys, but it is wholly a mechanical process. That's why it's imaginary, not-real, fictitious. Ego is just very complicated programming. Some are more complicated than others, but I bet you encounter someone almost every day, where you can see the wheels turning, you see preprogrammed responses. You haven't answered my questions. If it can't see then how does it know that it's seen a lever? If it doesn't understand then how does it even know a bell from a pulley?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 0:36:23 GMT -5
All the "nondualists" here have a double standard. OTOH they say, nobody does anything, the "person" is merely a flow of the whole universe (or some such). But then OTOH they say you have to live as if you are a doer. In one or the other there is delusion, nobody can believe both and live as if both are true. So it's not me you have a problem, it's yourself and the others. I'm saying the question makes no sense because it can't be both ways. You (plural) can't be striving to live in a certain way, IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE OR SEE IT TO BE TRUE THAT THERE ISN'T A ~DOING~ sELF. If you lived from both you would be living constantly in laughter's double-bind. (There is no doer, yet I am doing). {But yes, people live this way daily. There is an ~appliance~ that allows this, they're called buffers. They allow one to live in contradictions. They allow one to not-see the contradictions}. That's the (final) point I was making. The two (expressed above), together, must necessarily mean it can't matter how life is lived, because any doing-self is illusory, just isn't. And all this must necessarily mean the guy who killed 50+ and wounded 400+ people last night in LV was merely a natural flow of the universe at that moment. But somebody here is going to say, Oh, no!, no!, no!, that's not what we're saying (always happens when I raise this point). You can't have your cake and eat it too. The solution to the apparent dilemma you pose is in the complete understanding of the meaning of nonvolition. I've been promising Laughter for years that I would write an explanation and failed to fulfill my promise, so I take complete responsibility. What you do is a function of your conditioning only, and as such you have no volition, but what others say and do is part of that conditioning, and so it matters very much what peeps say and do. It matters very much how life is lived because everybody is conditioned by you, and you are conditioned by everybody else. You are told to live your life responsibly because if you conclude that it doesn't matter what you do, that bit of conditioning will cause you to act destructively in the world. The one who truly understands nonvolition also understands his responsibility. There is no paradox or contradiction. I'm happy to have finally cleared up the nonvolition issue once and for all. It makes me happy. 30,000 people die every year in your country from gun related incidents. A lot of them are suicides.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2017 0:45:53 GMT -5
You pursue whatever because it makes you happy. Happiness is your ultimate goal. It's just that denying that makes your pursuit seem more noble. The goal of all human endeavor is to be happy. That's obviously your view, and you see life only through your own view (I've visited your web site a time or two, years ago), it's like wearing "happiness-colored-glasses", you lack the capacity to be able to enter into the position of another. You don't recognize you are projecting your own view of life on-to me. Life 101, happiness always is impossible. But for a time, one can imagine they are happy. Imagination can satisfy the mind and emotions. But imagination...is imagination. Imagination is almost as powerful as truth. Yes, perpetual happiness is impossible, which is why you need to keep taking the drug of knowledge. Why you must be a perpetual seeker.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2017 1:08:45 GMT -5
The solution to the apparent dilemma you pose is in the complete understanding of the meaning of nonvolition. I've been promising Laughter for years that I would write an explanation and failed to fulfill my promise, so I take complete responsibility. What you do is a function of your conditioning only, and as such you have no volition, but what others say and do is part of that conditioning, and so it matters very much what peeps say and do. It matters very much how life is lived because everybody is conditioned by you, and you are conditioned by everybody else. You are told to live your life responsibly because if you conclude that it doesn't matter what you do, that bit of conditioning will cause you to act destructively in the world. The one who truly understands nonvolition also understands his responsibility. There is no paradox or contradiction. I'm happy to have finally cleared up the nonvolition issue once and for all. It makes me happy. That is absolutely accurate, Gurdjieff couldn't have said it better. Nonvolition = [our] mechanicalness. But there is a but, you don't go far enough. There is a part of us that is not conditioned. If we can find and access that, and learn to live through that, we can some day be free. But it is a long and difficult journey, nearly impossible. Now you can ask yourself, would you rather be happy, or free? (And what would you be willing to pay for freedom?) So if Gurjieff has told you this, why do you pretend nonduality is confused about nonvolition? Why do you pretend we don't know permanent happiness is impossible? Why do you pretend we don't know that part of us is not conditioned? Why do you pretend we don't know freedom is possible? If you had really read my website, you would know it is not about happiness, but rather Peace: freedom from suffering. It was written for you because you continue to take the happiness drug. Call it what it is. I think you want to be the only one who knows, but you have a lot to learn. What you want must become irrelevant if you are to be free. You obviously know that the price for freedom includes giving up the seeking and everything you think you know. Your seeking gives your life meaning. So ask yourself, would you rather be happy or free? Is there more knowledge to collect; more little boats to row? More layer cakes to bake? Or is freedom already waiting for you on the other side of all of that, where it has always been?
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2017 1:10:52 GMT -5
It wasn't a logical conclusion, more like a rhetorical reflection. You don't know that your goal is to be happy because you don't know yourself well enough. With all the years of self reflection you've done it should be an easy matter to notice that pursuing your drug high satisfies you. It fulfills you. It gives your life more meaning. It may even have saved your life. This is what it means to say it makes you happy. It's not very low on the priority list, it's the top priority. You are entitled to your opinion. (Issue already spoken to). Of course I am, and you are entitled to take another hit.
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