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Post by laughter on Sept 5, 2016 1:06:50 GMT -5
Right, no divine plan. So, you're sold on the idea of divine forces, but not a divine plan. I didn't say I m sure there is no plan; I was just questioning it; I ve related that on occasions I got answered through some "divine" force, so if that force is not just a loving while immobile entity, but on some occasions takes action, why then not in the artrocious cases; In my own pictures from other lifetimes, no matter mine or from whoever, there was one situation in which the person was in deep deep despair; there where divine beings around, ready to help, but as the person had not been able to confront the violence that had been done to him/her, she/he was at the same time full of resistance against anyone, divine forces included. There was one part of the person being desperately looking for help, and another that was not able to ask the beings for help, which led to the beings turning away. If we generalize this, it means that it's required that someone becomes humble in the face of severest illtreatments before help is granted; As we tend to accelerate resistance the more we're illtreated, this may lead to the extremes that are happening; The more pain is given, the bigger the resistance, until the point where the person will be broken; I remember cases between lifetimes when persons out of a mood actually *did* decide for a maximum hard fate in order to get free. But I also remember that once in the situation they just didn't want this anymore, but then it was too late; Before this background, the freedom-of-will thing sounds true; But a) it looks a little bit to me like an overtaxation - parents don't allow little children to run into a busy street just for the sake of their free will, so why doesn't the divine set some limit? and b) it doesn't explain animal-torture. From this and the OP it seems to me that you're taking Kahn's reference to a plan literally to the extent that he's referring to something that can be stated and understood rationally in terms of language and ideas. Apologies if this this seems obvious, but I don't want to assume it as a premise. Do I have that right? |
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aki
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Post by aki on Sept 5, 2016 1:51:23 GMT -5
From this and the OP it seems to me that you're taking Kahn's reference to a plan literally to the extent that he's referring to something that can be stated and understood rationally in terms of language and ideas. Well verbal teaching may be directed at the Self, but it's also directet at the mind, no? It's the mind that will decide to surrender, und so it needs to get the conviction to do so; How do you understand his words other than rationally (except for words which are using negation to point to the empty) |
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Post by laughter on Sept 5, 2016 2:03:42 GMT -5
From this and the OP it seems to me that you're taking Kahn's reference to a plan literally to the extent that he's referring to something that can be stated and understood rationally in terms of language and ideas. Well verbal teaching may be directed at the Self, but it's also directet at the mind, no? It's the mind that will decide to surrender, und so it needs to get the conviction to do so; How do you understand his words other than rationally (except for words which are using negation to point to the empty) I've got sincere interest in addressing each of the three points you raise there, but first, I'd rather not assume that this perception was right to begin with without your acknowledgement. IOW, can I take your reply as including an answer of "yes" to that? If you'd rather, please take this as an opportunity to refine and amplify on what I wrote to some extent before I answer you. |
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aki
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Post by aki on Sept 5, 2016 3:28:39 GMT -5
I've got sincere interest in addressing each of the three points you raise there, but first, I'd rather not assume that this perception was right to begin with without your acknowledgement. IOW, can I take your reply as including an answer of "yes" to that? If you'd rather, please take this as an opportunity to refine and amplify on what I wrote to some extent before I answer you. Yes, sure, I find that what he says about that there is a divine plan, can be understood literally by the mind. Sometimes teachers say things that are not directed to the mind, as I wrote before, but I find this one is directed to be understood literally as it was said. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 5, 2016 5:31:14 GMT -5
Right, no divine plan. So, you're sold on the idea of divine forces, but not a divine plan. I didn't say I m sure there is no plan; I was just questioning it; I ve related that on occasions I got answered through some "divine" force, so if that force is not just a loving while immobile entity, but on some occasions takes action, why then not in the artrocious cases; In my own pictures from other lifetimes, no matter mine or from whoever, there was one situation in which the person was in deep deep despair; there where divine beings around, ready to help, but as the person had not been able to confront the violence that had been done to him/her, she/he was at the same time full of resistance against anyone, divine forces included. There was one part of the person being desperately looking for help, and another that was not able to ask the beings for help, which led to the beings turning away. If we generalize this, it means that it's required that someone becomes humble in the face of severest illtreatments before help is granted; As we tend to accelerate resistance the more we're illtreated, this may lead to the extremes that are happening; The more pain is given, the bigger the resistance, until the point where the person will be broken; I remember cases between lifetimes when persons out of a mood actually *did* decide for a maximum hard fate in order to get free. But I also remember that once in the situation they just didn't want this anymore, but then it was too late; Before this background, the freedom-of-will thing sounds true; But a) it looks a little bit to me like an overtaxation - parents don't allow little children to run into a busy street just for the sake of their free will, so why doesn't the divine set some limit? and b) it doesn't explain animal-torture. The problem with all such questions is that they're strictly a mind phenomena. Is there a God? If so, why does God allow pain and suffering? If there is a God, does God have a plan? What is the absolute truth? Etc. All such questions are based upon fundamental misconceptions. The answers to all such questions lie beyond mind. By contemplating the questions in silence, non-conceptual insights and understanding can occur. Those insights will then inform mind, and intellectual understanding can then occur. You have a choice. Either stay in the mind, spinning, or become silent and discover the living truth. If someone answers your question and says, "Yes, there is a divine plan," you're no better off than before because you have not yet seen or understood the truth for yourself. The only way to become fully satisfied is to look non-conceptually, and find out what's going on. No one can do this for you. |
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aki
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Post by aki on Sept 5, 2016 7:36:57 GMT -5
Those insights will then inform mind, and intellectual understanding can then occur. If intellectual understanding can occur, it must be possible to communicate about this outcome on mind-level. I don't neglect the mind totally, and contemplation and meditaton sometimes can go hand in hand in my experience. If any insight would be possible only through meditative means, all talk would be superfluent. But it isn't, because on some things the mind needs reassurance before it is willing to drop. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 5, 2016 7:37:31 GMT -5
I've got sincere interest in addressing each of the three points you raise there, but first, I'd rather not assume that this perception was right to begin with without your acknowledgement. IOW, can I take your reply as including an answer of "yes" to that? If you'd rather, please take this as an opportunity to refine and amplify on what I wrote to some extent before I answer you. Yes, sure, I find that what he says about that there is a divine plan, can be understood literally by the mind. Sometimes teachers say things that are not directed to the mind, as I wrote before, but I find this one is directed to be understood literally as it was said. Do you have a link to a vid where he says this to put it into context? The short answer here is that there's no rationalizing torture. Pain of all sorts can be experienced very differently depending on how one is oriented toward what's going on as it's happening, and this is related to conditioning of the body and mind. If you're interested in more of my thoughts beyond this, let me know. I could address what you wrote here directly, and/or instead, give you a different take on the nature of of your line of questions altogether. My thoughts on the idea of a divine plan are that we can discern that past and future events seem to happen in certain ordered patterns. The nature of these patterns that we describe is heavily dependent on that same conditioning that relates to the way we experience pain, and the end to your line of questioning involves getting present to, understanding and witnessing that conditioning for what it is as it's happening. |
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Post by aki on Sept 5, 2016 7:51:15 GMT -5
Pain of all sorts can be experienced very differently depending on how one is oriented toward what's going on as it's happening, and this is related to conditioning of the body and mind. That applies for low and middle issues. For real torture victims this is too academic; I once had a teacher who always pointed to Jesus and what was the outcome of his suffering, but Jesus was not a normal guy. Asking those who were hanging on the crosses around him would give a more realistic picture; Here's the link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3zKwZqfWrYIt's a superb video otherwise. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 5, 2016 8:25:15 GMT -5
Pain of all sorts can be experienced very differently depending on how one is oriented toward what's going on as it's happening, and this is related to conditioning of the body and mind. That applies for low and middle issues. For real torture victims this is too academic; I once had a teacher who always pointed to Jesus and what was the outcome of his suffering, but Jesus was not a normal guy. Asking those who were hanging on the crosses around him would give a more realistic picture; Here's the link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3zKwZqfWrYIt's a superb video otherwise. Having never been tortured I can't speak as an authority on your opinion, but that wasn't just a theory, it's something anyone can experience in practice. It starts with Matt's first idea: seeing the resistance to the pain itself as it's happening. Conditioned value judgments about the pain tend to create a cascading feeback effect that creates more pain. If you get a charliehorse and panic and curse, it will take longer to subside. The body and the mind are intimately intertwined in this way. The Pilsbury Roll caper is some good comedy, I like what he says in the first seven minutes ( very much), although I found his definition of pain to be rather oblique, to say the least.  At what point in the 82 minutes does he talk about a divine plan? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 5, 2016 8:33:46 GMT -5
Those insights will then inform mind, and intellectual understanding can then occur. If intellectual understanding can occur, it must be possible to communicate about this outcome on mind-level. I don't neglect the mind totally, and contemplation and meditaton sometimes can go hand in hand in my experience. If any insight would be possible only through meditative means, all talk would be superfluent. But it isn't, because on some things the mind needs reassurance before it is willing to drop. Our little pea-brains don't have the capacity to understand the complexity of how the universe is structured. Even concerning ordinary science, scientists don't know how life originated, can't make life from "scratch". You have to have life to make life. Scientists don't know how consciousness arises from life, they don't know how the stuff inside a mind-body-brain comes to realize it is. Biologists don't even know how photosynthesis works, how a plant turns the energy of photons from the sun into chemical energy, that keeps us alive. Physicists don't know why the universe began as a low state of entropy, an ordered state which, over time, becomes increasingly disordered (meaning there is less energy available for work). The ordinary mind just does not have the capacity to answer what you ask. Ordinary mind is merely a sort of copy machine. For creativity and invention and increasing understanding, mind has to get beyond itself, be more than it now is. But then if one mind comes to KNOW, it can't share what it knows, because the ~other~ mind faces the same obstacles, its capacity to be more than it is, has to likewise be expanded. Some knowledge/information cannot be put into words, cannot be abstracted, ZD is right. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2016 10:05:03 GMT -5
The "loving divine" has fallen into his own dream. (that's you) It did fall into it's own dream, but only partly; The basis of the divine always remains untouched and I ve heard again and again that nothing happens beyond it's "will" to take a synonym for "plan"; so this partly falling into a dream doesn't change the original question about why this basic divine produces torture; What I call Intelligence, or Awareness remains untouched, (how can Intelligence or Awareness be altered?) but that isn't to say there is a willful planner. Such would require a thinker beyond, and separate from, the human expression of thought. Thought happens here in the dream. The creator of thought does not think. The creator of time is outside of time. There is no planner. There are many ways of talking about all this. None of them are ultimately true. Talking about God's will is useful in certain contexts to make certain points, but we create confusion when we start drawing conclusions from it that were never intended. There is just Awareness/Intelligence/Consciousness, so of course nothing can happen outside of it, but it also means that self delusion is God deluding itself. Torture is God torturing God. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2016 10:19:39 GMT -5
Right, no divine plan. So, you're sold on the idea of divine forces, but not a divine plan. I didn't say I m sure there is no plan; I was just questioning it; I ve related that on occasions I got answered through some "divine" force, so if that force is not just a loving while immobile entity, but on some occasions takes action, why then not in the artrocious cases; In my own pictures from other lifetimes, no matter mine or from whoever, there was one situation in which the person was in deep deep despair; there where divine beings around, ready to help, but as the person had not been able to confront the violence that had been done to him/her, she/he was at the same time full of resistance against anyone, divine forces included. There was one part of the person being desperately looking for help, and another that was not able to ask the beings for help, which led to the beings turning away. If we generalize this, it means that it's required that someone becomes humble in the face of severest illtreatments before help is granted; As we tend to accelerate resistance the more we're illtreated, this may lead to the extremes that are happening; The more pain is given, the bigger the resistance, until the point where the person will be broken; I remember cases between lifetimes when persons out of a mood actually *did* decide for a maximum hard fate in order to get free. But I also remember that once in the situation they just didn't want this anymore, but then it was too late; Before this background, the freedom-of-will thing sounds true; But a) it looks a little bit to me like an overtaxation - parents don't allow little children to run into a busy street just for the sake of their free will, so why doesn't the divine set some limit? and b) it doesn't explain animal-torture. A lot of things will remain 'unexplained' as long as you hold to the notion of a divine entity that makes plans and answers prayers. Let that go and all can be reconciled. You are the answer to your own prayers. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 5, 2016 10:25:23 GMT -5
If intellectual understanding can occur, it must be possible to communicate about this outcome on mind-level. I don't neglect the mind totally, and contemplation and meditaton sometimes can go hand in hand in my experience. If any insight would be possible only through meditative means, all talk would be superfluent. But it isn't, because on some things the mind needs reassurance before it is willing to drop. Our little pea-brains don't have the capacity to understand the complexity of how the universe is structured. Even concerning ordinary science, scientists don't know how life originated, can't make life from "scratch". You have to have life to make life. Scientists don't know how consciousness arises from life, they don't know how the stuff inside a mind-body-brain comes to realize it is. Biologists don't even know how photosynthesis works, how a plant turns the energy of photons from the sun into chemical energy, that keeps us alive. Physicists don't know why the universe began as a low state of entropy, an ordered state which, over time, becomes increasingly disordered (meaning there is less energy available for work). The ordinary mind just does not have the capacity to answer what you ask. Ordinary mind is merely a sort of copy machine. For creativity and invention and increasing understanding, mind has to get beyond itself, be more than it now is. But then if one mind comes to KNOW, it can't share what it knows, because the ~other~ mind faces the same obstacles, its capacity to be more than it is, has to likewise be expanded. Some knowledge/information cannot be put into words, cannot be abstracted, ZD is right. Correct. Without non-conceptual insight and understanding into this issue how can someone without non-conceptual insight and understanding know what various words might be pointing to? One sage might say, "God has a plan." Another sage with equal insight and understanding might say, "God has no plan." They're both pointing to the same realization and understanding, but they're using different words that appear to be contradictory to the mind. How can someone without their realization know what's being pointed to? This is why each person must find the living truth for him/herself. Here's an example: Jacob Boehm, a Christian mystic, had many CC experiences. He once told a disciple, "If thou cans't for a moment throw thyself into that wherein no creature dwelleth, thou shalt hear unspeakable words of God." What can the mind do with a statement like that? Only someone who has been "where no creature dwelleth" will understand what the words are pointing to. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2016 10:26:36 GMT -5
I don't understand why free will is necessary for creativity, invention or intelligent beings. Also, the absence of free will does not imply that choosing has no consequences. It's a matter of accountability and responsibility. I liked to play Monopoly as a kid. During the game things could get intense, but ultimately, it didn't mean anything. Choices were made but there were no consequences, when somebody won you just put the pieces back into the box. If there is no free will then choices cannot matter, life would merely be like a game of Monopoly. How does that not make sense? But of course, I understand your view, life IS a game. How can it not matter when the choice is made to kill someone? How is there no consequence to killing someone? |
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2016 10:28:19 GMT -5
Only you are keeping the truth veiled. So there is a "you"? If there isn't, then who is praying and who is answering those prayers? |
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At what point in the 82 minutes does he talk about a divine plan?
