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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2016 12:43:22 GMT -5
No. The facepalm that happened got extended. If you were more self-aware, that can't have happened.  |
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Post by runstill on Sept 4, 2016 17:52:30 GMT -5
One request: If you quote, please delete anything that you're not referring to if possible, because it makes a thread unclear. Thanks  I just watched a clip with Matt Kahn about pain. At one point he said that there's absolutely nothing happening that is not on the highest divine plan. Here I get stuck when it goes beyond a certain degree, like the case of a group of kids that got treated with razorblades, electroshocks and rape over years again and again, or any kind of longtime-torture. It's the old question: How can the highest loving divine allow or even plan for worst cruelties.Let me investigate some options: 1.) there is no divine plan, everything goes mechanically according to natural laws of karma; I can't adjust to this because I feel there are divine forces at work; 2.) the divine is there, but it acts only on some points, like when we pray for help; As separation is not real, everything must be the divine, so even the worst things happening must be divine; 3.) As separation is not real, the victims also are not real; Anyone who suffered strong enough knows that in the situation it doesn't matter wether it's an illusion or not; suffering is real; 4.) Even such things can be part of the highest divine plan in order to give souls the experience they need for stopping; But then what about animal-torture? 5.) No matter how artrociously it gets and no matter how long it stays, it will always be temporary; That's the only point I can make friends with; If there's some intelligent input, I'd be grateful. Thanks Its all god, boundless, limitless perfection, if that's the case how is it that the most evil vile appearances occur, because it's all god there is always the potential for clarity even as the evil vileness is arising and at some point that potential will become manifest as a matter of course. A true story that was published in a major newspaper sometime ago, a 15 year old boy was running with a gang that came upon a young male from a rival gang by himself, a gun was put in the 15 year olds hand and he was egged on to shoot the other young gang member as he was holding the gun in his face he had a sudden epiphany that he would be shooting himself and was unable to pull the trigger. This story was told by an investigative reporter doing research about gangs and verified by the 15 year olds brother who was also in the gang. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 4, 2016 20:15:10 GMT -5
In the tradition I follow it ia said there is no unconscious evolution. I have found this to be the case. Everything we think, feel and do comes from unconscious conditioning. There was a time when we were simply aware, from birth and as a little child. This awareness collected data which became stored in the brain. Eventually this information became the center, ego/cultural self formed, and our sense of Self shifted from this "unpolluted" awareness, to ego/ cultural self, a false sense of self. aki knows something wrong or you wouldn't be here on ST's...looking for something. You can explore this right now, whatever self thinks, is a false sense of self. Just Be awareness. You may have to do this many times, hundreds, thousands, many days, years possibly. But eventually your sense of self will shift. And then you will be at the beginning of finding out many things for yourself. First you have to row a little boat. Most everything we think we now know is merely the opinion of someone. This has been called building on sand. It is possible to find real ground, but first things first. Explore first. ** Pokes fingers in eyes real hard. **  |
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Post by enigma on Sept 4, 2016 21:04:06 GMT -5
Hey aki...no response yet...I understand from this forum. Many if not most here will disagree with the following. I take it that first there existed Supreme Originating Conscious Intelligence. It is It's nature to wish to manifest, to reproduce It's nature. If It simply copied Itself, It would simply Be Itself, remain Itself, there wouldn't be anything other that IT. (This is where you find nonduality, the view expressed mostly here on ST's). So, to eventuality have new creativity and invention, eventual intelligent beings (you and me) must be "designed" with potential free will. And so the choosing must have very real consequences. There is the story of a Rabbi who was once asked by a student how he became so wise. He replied, by making good decisions. The student then asked, how did you learn to make good decisions. His reply, by making bad decisions. So this is life, deciding, and then living with the consequences of deciding. So the badness and the evil of the world is the result of millions of decisions, multiplied, over thousands of years. So, human beings are pretty-much responsible for the world we live in. We live in the best possible world. Without consequences, no growing into wisdom, so the universe had to be set up in the manner it is. I don't understand why free will is necessary for creativity, invention or intelligent beings. Also, the absence of free will does not imply that choosing has no consequences. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 4, 2016 21:09:21 GMT -5
Hi there, But isn't that just theory? It sounds good, but how do you know it's true? A guy like Matt Kahn has quite some authority for my, in the positive sense; And I think the way to understand this matter better, is probably to look more deeply at our definitions of the words, like for example the word "plan"; how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time?Right, no divine plan. So, you're sold on the idea of divine forces, but not a divine plan. What form do these divine forces take for you? |
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Post by enigma on Sept 4, 2016 21:16:25 GMT -5
Hi there, But isn't that just theory? It sounds good, but how do you know it's true? A guy like Matt Kahn has quite some authority for my, in the positive sense; And I think the way to understand this matter better, is probably to look more deeply at our definitions of the words, like for example the word "plan"; how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time? In the tradition I follow it is said there is no unconscious evolution. I have found this to be the case. Everything we think, feel and do comes from unconscious conditioning. There was a time when we were simply aware, from birth and as a little child. This awareness collected data which became stored in the brain. Eventually this information became the center, ego/cultural self formed, and our sense of Self shifted from this "unpolluted" awareness, to ego/ cultural self, a false sense of self. You became unconscious of your sense-of-being-as-awareness. aki knows something wrong or you wouldn't be here on ST's...looking for something. You can explore this right now, whatever self thinks, is a false sense of self. Just Be awareness. You may have to do this many times, hundreds, thousands, many days, years possibly. But eventually your sense of self will shift. You can go back to the time when your sense of being, was awareness. This is the beginning of being conscious, a movement from conditioned thinking to conscious-ness, of being conscious-of-self. You can regain your sense of being-as-awareness, but now it is more, you are aware of being aware. And then you will be at the beginning of finding out many things for yourself. First you have to row a little boat. Most everything we think we now know is merely the opinion of someone. This has been called building on sand. It is possible to find real ground, but first things first. Explore first. To say there is no time is a completely conceptual idea. Has time passed since you woke up this morning? Yes, of course. To say it hasn't is imagination. So ask first, what is the nature of time?Imagination. |
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aki
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Post by aki on Sept 4, 2016 21:28:56 GMT -5
oh guys, I really was looking for a simple solution ... didn't want this to expand like this ... and certainly didn't want you or me get into any battle, no matter how subtle ...
I m doing all this process of dismanteling since a long time ... currently from morning till evening ... coming from extreme hardship ... got much better but still big blocks; one of them being this question of the loving divine giving torture; don't want to discuss methods etc. now,
thanks
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Post by enigma on Sept 4, 2016 21:36:38 GMT -5
oh guys, I really was looking for a simple solution ... didn't want this to expand like this ... and certainly didn't want you or me get into any battle, no matter how subtle ... I m doing all this process of dismanteling since a long time ... currently from morning till evening ... coming from extreme hardship ... got much better but still big blocks; one of them being this question of the loving divine giving torture; don't want to discuss methods etc. now, thanks The OP in 'Is the universe benevolent?' is a direct response to your question, so I'm guessing you know where I stand. The "loving divine" has fallen into his own dream. (that's you) |
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aki
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Post by aki on Sept 4, 2016 21:37:51 GMT -5
how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time? What form do these divine forces take for you? Good question. I perceive deep energy phenomena; During some exalted states whats going on feels like "divine"; I ve asked deep questions on two occasions and they were answered immediately by very clear outward happenings beyond any possibility of coincidence; |
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Post by enigma on Sept 4, 2016 21:46:09 GMT -5
What form do these divine forces take for you? Good question. I perceive deep energy phenomena; During some exalted states whats going on feels like "divine"; I ve asked deep questions on two occasions and they were answered immediately by very clear outward happenings beyond any possibility of coincidence; Okey dokey. |
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aki
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Post by aki on Sept 4, 2016 21:48:06 GMT -5
The "loving divine" has fallen into his own dream. (that's you) It did fall into it's own dream, but only partly; The basis of the divine always remains untouched and I ve heard again and again that nothing happens beyond it's "will" to take a synonym for "plan"; so this partly falling into a dream doesn't change the original question about why this basic divine produces torture; |
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aki
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Post by aki on Sept 4, 2016 21:51:03 GMT -5
how can there be a divine plan, when there is no time? Right, no divine plan. So, you're sold on the idea of divine forces, but not a divine plan. I didn't say I m sure there is no plan; I was just questioning it; I ve related that on occasions I got answered through some "divine" force, so if that force is not just a loving while immobile entity, but on some occasions takes action, why then not in the artrocious cases; In my own pictures from other lifetimes, no matter mine or from whoever, there was one situation in which the person was in deep deep despair; there where divine beings around, ready to help, but as the person had not been able to confront the violence that had been done to him/her, she/he was at the same time full of resistance against anyone, divine forces included. There was one part of the person being desperately looking for help, and another that was not able to ask the beings for help, which led to the beings turning away. If we generalize this, it means that it's required that someone becomes humble in the face of severest illtreatments before help is granted; As we tend to accelerate resistance the more we're illtreated, this may lead to the extremes that are happening; The more pain is given, the bigger the resistance, until the point where the person will be broken; I remember cases between lifetimes when persons out of a mood actually *did* decide for a maximum hard fate in order to get free. But I also remember that once in the situation they just didn't want this anymore, but then it was too late; Before this background, the freedom-of-will thing sounds true; But a) it looks a little bit to me like an overtaxation - parents don't allow little children to run into a busy street just for the sake of their free will, so why doesn't the divine set some limit? and b) it doesn't explain animal-torture. |
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Post by runstill on Sept 4, 2016 23:04:51 GMT -5
The "loving divine" has fallen into his own dream. (that's you) It did fall into it's own dream, but only partly; The basis of the divine always remains untouched and I ve heard again and again that nothing happens beyond it's "will" to take a synonym for "plan"; so this partly falling into a dream doesn't change the original question about why this basic divine produces torture; Torture and cruelty cannot keep you from being truth. Only you are keeping the truth veiled. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 4, 2016 23:05:26 GMT -5
Hey aki...no response yet...I understand from this forum. Many if not most here will disagree with the following. I take it that first there existed Supreme Originating Conscious Intelligence. It is It's nature to wish to manifest, to reproduce It's nature. If It simply copied Itself, It would simply Be Itself, remain Itself, there wouldn't be anything other that IT. (This is where you find nonduality, the view expressed mostly here on ST's). So, to eventuality have new creativity and invention, eventual intelligent beings (you and me) must be "designed" with potential free will. And so the choosing must have very real consequences. There is the story of a Rabbi who was once asked by a student how he became so wise. He replied, by making good decisions. The student then asked, how did you learn to make good decisions. His reply, by making bad decisions. So this is life, deciding, and then living with the consequences of deciding. So the badness and the evil of the world is the result of millions of decisions, multiplied, over thousands of years. So, human beings are pretty-much responsible for the world we live in. We live in the best possible world. Without consequences, no growing into wisdom, so the universe had to be set up in the manner it is. I don't understand why free will is necessary for creativity, invention or intelligent beings. Also, the absence of free will does not imply that choosing has no consequences. It's a matter of accountability and responsibility. I liked to play Monopoly as a kid. During the game things could get intense, but ultimately, it didn't mean anything. Choices were made but there were no consequences, when somebody won you just put the pieces back into the box. If there is no free will then choices cannot matter, life would merely be like a game of Monopoly. How does that not make sense? But of course, I understand your view, life IS a game. |
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aki
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Post by aki on Sept 4, 2016 23:40:57 GMT -5
Only you are keeping the truth veiled. So there is a "you"? |
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