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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 3, 2016 10:52:28 GMT -5
I will only add to ZD's post (and thanks for your reply), for me, the 'path' to 'the living truth' is a spiral, not a circle. (specifically, last paragraph, the rest is setting up the distinction)
Just to make clear. This distinction I'm trying to make, when the ordinary person pumps gas, you know, all pumps now have an automatic cut-off. You begin pumping, then mind begins to turn, next going to Walmart, ...hummm, toilet paper, drink mix, BC powders, birthday card, have to get home in time to see the ballgame, I forgot to call my sister...etc...then nozzle clicks off. I fully respect what ZD says, just pump gas. Ordinary person is not just pumping gas, mind is jumping all around into the past and into the future, ordinary person may even lose the presence of where they are, that they are even holding a gas nozzle. You can even see it all the time driving. You come to a red light, maybe you are the second or third person behind. 75% of the time the first person at the light is not ready for the light change, they are not looking, their mind is elsewhere, almost inevitably, one, two, three seconds, four even. I've never understood this until one day I realized the first person at the light does not care if they see the light change or not, they will make the light, they don't care about who's behind them. They get to visit la-la land sitting at a red light.
So, if you are pumping gas, just pump gas, yes, I get that.
I'm not sure I get the non-dual view, the oneness of pumping gas. I'm not sure this is ZD's view, but this is the sense I get from reading some people (people here and in the books). There is just pumping gas, if there is a ~me~ pumping gas, then this is two. I get a sense that there is saying that any sense of me totally disappears in-to the pumping gas. This is the circle. I agree, I understand no sense of ego, self as ego, being present. As I said, I don't know if this is what ZD is saying. I don't know if ZD is saying there is a total disappearance in-to the pumping gas. There is talk of some of the sense of presence. Presence says to me that there isn't just pumping gas. But what's present isn't ego. But saying circle seems to be saying a complete overlap, no separation, no two, only pumping gas, complete disappearance in-to pumping gas. This also seems to be the meaning of flow, complete disappearance into the activity.
The distinction, why I say spiral, why there is a distinction between self as ego/personality/cultural self, and ~self~ (read possibility of real individuality, Gurdjieff said, we don't know what we are) as essence (essence is the seed of individuality). So yes, only pumping gas, only being in the present moment, no mind-wandering-thinking entering in, therefore no self as ego entering in, but, not a total disappearance in-to pumping gas. There is awareness of pumping gas, the awareness that there is the body-organism, here, pumping, is never lost. Awareness is the 'spiral' ~standing "above"~ the gas pumping. For me this is the meaning of presence. This is what I take people to mean by awareness of awareness. And this is the meaning of my reply to sca, the distinction is everything, everything.
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 3, 2016 12:21:53 GMT -5
I will only add to ZD's post (and thanks for your reply), for me, the 'path' to 'the living truth' is a spiral, not a circle. (specifically, last paragraph, the rest is setting up the distinction) Just to make clear. This distinction I'm trying to make, when the ordinary person pumps gas, you know, all pumps now have an automatic cut-off. You begin pumping, then mind begins to turn, next going to Walmart, ...hummm, toilet paper, drink mix, BC powders, birthday card, have to get home in time to see the ballgame, I forgot to call my sister...etc...then nozzle clicks off. I fully respect what ZD says, just pump gas. Ordinary person is not just pumping gas, mind is jumping all around into the past and into the future, ordinary person may even lose the presence of where they are, that they are even holding a gas nozzle. You can even see it all the time driving. You come to a red light, maybe you are the second or third person behind. 75% of the time the first person at the light is not ready for the light change, they are not looking, their mind is elsewhere, almost inevitably, one, two, three seconds, four even. I've never understood this until one day I realized the first person at the light does not care if they see the light change or not, they will make the light, they don't care about who's behind them. They get to visit la-la land sitting at a red light. So, if you are pumping gas, just pump gas, yes, I get that. I'm not sure I get the non-dual view, the oneness of pumping gas. I'm not sure this is ZD's view, but this is the sense I get from reading some people (people here and in the books). There is just pumping gas, if there is a ~me~ pumping gas, then this is two. I get a sense that there is saying that any sense of me totally disappears in-to the pumping gas. This is the circle. I agree, I understand no sense of ego, self as ego, being present. As I said, I don't know if this is what ZD is saying. I don't know if ZD is saying there is a total disappearance in-to the pumping gas. There is talk of some of the sense of presence. Presence says to me that there isn't just pumping gas. But what's present isn't ego. But saying circle seems to be saying a complete overlap, no separation, no two, only pumping gas, complete disappearance in-to pumping gas. This also seems to be the meaning of flow, complete disappearance into the activity. The distinction, why I say spiral, why there is a distinction between self as ego/personality/cultural self, and ~self~ (read possibility of real individuality, Gurdjieff said, we don't know what we are) as essence (essence is the seed of individuality). So yes, only pumping gas, only being in the present moment, no mind-wandering-thinking entering in, therefore no self as ego entering in, but, not a total disappearance in-to pumping gas. There is awareness of pumping gas, the awareness that there is the body-organism, here, pumping, is never lost. Awareness is the 'spiral' ~standing "above"~ the gas pumping. For me this is the meaning of presence. This is what I take people to mean by awareness of awareness. And this is the meaning of my reply to sca, the distinction is everything, everything. That's where the purity of experiencing the holistic interconnectedness of existence is fouled, molested by the mind's machinations.. duality/nonduality are distinctions extraneous to the holistic process, those ideas become obstacles when people are so attached to one or the other that they would rather debate which is 'right' than remain present in what's actually happening..
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Post by zendancer on Apr 3, 2016 21:53:48 GMT -5
SDP: There can be a COMPLETE disappearance of self in the pumping of gas, but that's what we call "woo woo," and that's NOT what I'm pointing to. What I'm pointing to is a flow of being where it doesn't matter whether there is thinking or an absence of thinking. It also doesn't matter whether there is a sense of selfhood or not. It's ordinary life lived without any concern whatsoever about anything existentially reflective. There's no self-checking, no second-guessing, no questioning, no effort to be psychologically present, and no effort to be anything other than what is manifesting here and now. There's no higher or lower, no path, no person doing anything, no attainment, no separation, no unity, no consciousness of consciousness, no awareness of awareness, no duality, no non-duality, etc. It's what we might call "a flow of being that includes mind but is free from mind." The car needs gas, so let go of all ideas, and just pump the gas. Just do it! LOL
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 2:28:30 GMT -5
SDP: There can be a COMPLETE disappearance of self in the pumping of gas, but that's what we call "woo woo," and that's NOT what I'm pointing to. What I'm pointing to is a flow of being where it doesn't matter whether there is thinking or an absence of thinking. It also doesn't matter whether there is a sense of selfhood or not. It's ordinary life lived without any concern whatsoever about anything existentially reflective. There's no self-checking, no second-guessing, no questioning, no effort to be psychologically present, and no effort to be anything other than what is manifesting here and now. There's no higher or lower, no path, no person doing anything, no attainment, no separation, no unity, no consciousness of consciousness, no awareness of awareness, no duality, no non-duality, etc. It's what we might call "a flow of being that includes mind but is free from mind." The car needs gas, so let go of all ideas, and just pump the gas. Just do it! LOL Absolutely spot on ZD as always. But how on earth can the truth of that be conveyed to anyone? Well of course it can't be. It can only be pointed to in the hope that the other surrenders to the silence within. Perhaps there are some here who think you sit around all day thinking about non duality. Ha ha.
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 4, 2016 5:50:47 GMT -5
SDP: There can be a COMPLETE disappearance of self in the pumping of gas, but that's what we call "woo woo," and that's NOT what I'm pointing to. What I'm pointing to is a flow of being where it doesn't matter whether there is thinking or an absence of thinking. It also doesn't matter whether there is a sense of selfhood or not. It's ordinary life lived without any concern whatsoever about anything existentially reflective. There's no self-checking, no second-guessing, no questioning, no effort to be psychologically present, and no effort to be anything other than what is manifesting here and now. There's no higher or lower, no path, no person doing anything, no attainment, no separation, no unity, no consciousness of consciousness, no awareness of awareness, no duality, no non-duality, etc. It's what we might call "a flow of being that includes mind but is free from mind." The car needs gas, so let go of all ideas, and just pump the gas. Just do it! LOL Clarity, expressed well...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 4, 2016 10:32:46 GMT -5
SDP: There can be a COMPLETE disappearance of self in the pumping of gas, but that's what we call "woo woo," and that's NOT what I'm pointing to. What I'm pointing to is a flow of being where it doesn't matter whether there is thinking or an absence of thinking. It also doesn't matter whether there is a sense of selfhood or not. It's ordinary life lived without any concern whatsoever about anything existentially reflective. There's no self-checking, no second-guessing, no questioning, no effort to be psychologically present, and no effort to be anything other than what is manifesting here and now. There's no higher or lower, no path, no person doing anything, no attainment, no separation, no unity, no consciousness of consciousness, no awareness of awareness, no duality, no non-duality, etc. It's what we might call "a flow of being that includes mind but is free from mind." The car needs gas, so let go of all ideas, and just pump the gas. Just do it! LOL I don't have a problem with any of that, it's just that I'm trying to point to something else. I will reply with some quotes, from In Search of the Miraculous. " .....said Gurdjieff. ...'Only one thing is true in what you have said: that you can know consciousness only in yourself....you can know it only when you have it. ...By observing in yourself the appearance and the disappearance of consciousness you will inevitably see one fact which you neither see nor acknowledge now, and that is that moments of consciousness are very short and are separated by long intervals of completely unconscious, mechanical working of the machine. You will then see that you can think, feel, act, speak, work, without being conscious of it.' (pg 116) ...'In reality consciousness is a property which is constantly changing. No it is present, now it is not present. And there are different degrees and different levels of consciousness'. (pg 117) ..... 'What is the most important thing we notice during self-observation?' .... Gurdjieff was obviously dissatisfied with our replies. .....'Not one of you has noticed the most important thing I have pointed out to you', he said. 'That is to say, not one of you has noticed that you do not remember yourselves.' (He gave particular emphasis to these words). .......'Only those results will have any value that are accompanied by self-remembering. Otherwise you yourselves do not exist in your observations.' ...Attempts at self-remembering failed to give any results except to show me that in actual fact we never remember ourselves. 'What else do you want?' said Gurdjieff. 'This is a very important realization. People who know this' (he emphasized these words) already know a great deal. The whole trouble is that nobody knows it'. (pgs 117,118) 'The third state of consciousness is self-remembering or self-consciousness or consciousness of one's being. It is usual to consider that we have this state of consciousness or that we can have it if we want it. ....It can be said without any exaggeration that at the present time the third state of consciousness occurs in man only in the form of rare flashes and that it can be made more or less permanent in him... For most people, even for educated and thinking people, the chief obstacle in acquiring self-consciousness consists in the fact that they think they possess it ...It is evident that a man will not be interested if you tell him that he can acquire by long and difficult work something which, in his opinion, he already has.' " (pgs 141,142) ISofM by PD Ouspensky, 1949
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 12:39:18 GMT -5
SDP: There can be a COMPLETE disappearance of self in the pumping of gas, but that's what we call "woo woo," and that's NOT what I'm pointing to. What I'm pointing to is a flow of being where it doesn't matter whether there is thinking or an absence of thinking. It also doesn't matter whether there is a sense of selfhood or not. It's ordinary life lived without any concern whatsoever about anything existentially reflective. There's no self-checking, no second-guessing, no questioning, no effort to be psychologically present, and no effort to be anything other than what is manifesting here and now. There's no higher or lower, no path, no person doing anything, no attainment, no separation, no unity, no consciousness of consciousness, no awareness of awareness, no duality, no non-duality, etc. It's what we might call "a flow of being that includes mind but is free from mind." The car needs gas, so let go of all ideas, and just pump the gas. Just do it! LOL I don't have a problem with any of that, it's just that I'm trying to point to something else. I will reply with some quotes, from In Search of the Miraculous. " .....said Gurdjieff. ...'Only one thing is true in what you have said: that you can know consciousness only in yourself....you can know it only when you have it. ...By observing in yourself the appearance and the disappearance of consciousness you will inevitably see one fact which you neither see nor acknowledge now, and that is that moments of consciousness are very short and are separated by long intervals of completely unconscious, mechanical working of the machine. You will then see that you can think, feel, act, speak, work, without being conscious of it.' (pg 116) ...'In reality consciousness is a property which is constantly changing. No it is present, now it is not present. And there are different degrees and different levels of consciousness'. (pg 117) ..... 'What is the most important thing we notice during self-observation?' .... Gurdjieff was obviously dissatisfied with our replies. .....'Not one of you has noticed the most important thing I have pointed out to you', he said. 'That is to say, not one of you has noticed that you do not remember yourselves.' (He gave particular emphasis to these words). .......'Only those results will have any value that are accompanied by self-remembering. Otherwise you yourselves do not exist in your observations.' ...Attempts at self-remembering failed to give any results except to show me that in actual fact we never remember ourselves. 'What else do you want?' said Gurdjieff. 'This is a very important realization. People who know this' (he emphasized these words) already know a great deal. The whole trouble is that nobody knows it'. (pgs 117,118) 'The third state of consciousness is self-remembering or self-consciousness or consciousness of one's being. It is usual to consider that we have this state of consciousness or that we can have it if we want it. ....It can be said without any exaggeration that at the present time the third state of consciousness occurs in man only in the form of rare flashes and that it can be made more or less permanent in him... For most people, even for educated and thinking people, the chief obstacle in acquiring self-consciousness consists in the fact that they think they possess it ...It is evident that a man will not be interested if you tell him that he can acquire by long and difficult work something which, in his opinion, he already has.' " (pgs 141,142) ISofM by PD Ouspensky, 1949 What's the something else you are trying to point to? What Gurdijeff said sounded very similar to what ZD was saying, in that before enlightenment there is a difference between Me and the objective world and after enlightenment that difference doesn't exist. Enlightenment is your destiny and not a destination for a few.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 4, 2016 14:43:06 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with any of that, it's just that I'm trying to point to something else. I will reply with some quotes, from In Search of the Miraculous. " .....said Gurdjieff. ...'Only one thing is true in what you have said: that you can know consciousness only in yourself....you can know it only when you have it. ...By observing in yourself the appearance and the disappearance of consciousness you will inevitably see one fact which you neither see nor acknowledge now, and that is that moments of consciousness are very short and are separated by long intervals of completely unconscious, mechanical working of the machine. You will then see that you can think, feel, act, speak, work, without being conscious of it.' (pg 116) ...'In reality consciousness is a property which is constantly changing. No it is present, now it is not present. And there are different degrees and different levels of consciousness'. (pg 117) ..... 'What is the most important thing we notice during self-observation?' .... Gurdjieff was obviously dissatisfied with our replies. .....'Not one of you has noticed the most important thing I have pointed out to you', he said. 'That is to say, not one of you has noticed that you do not remember yourselves.' (He gave particular emphasis to these words). .......'Only those results will have any value that are accompanied by self-remembering. Otherwise you yourselves do not exist in your observations.' ...Attempts at self-remembering failed to give any results except to show me that in actual fact we never remember ourselves. 'What else do you want?' said Gurdjieff. 'This is a very important realization. People who know this' (he emphasized these words) already know a great deal. The whole trouble is that nobody knows it'. (pgs 117,118) 'The third state of consciousness is self-remembering or self-consciousness or consciousness of one's being. It is usual to consider that we have this state of consciousness or that we can have it if we want it. ....It can be said without any exaggeration that at the present time the third state of consciousness occurs in man only in the form of rare flashes and that it can be made more or less permanent in him... For most people, even for educated and thinking people, the chief obstacle in acquiring self-consciousness consists in the fact that they think they possess it ...It is evident that a man will not be interested if you tell him that he can acquire by long and difficult work something which, in his opinion, he already has.' " (pgs 141,142) ISofM by PD Ouspensky, 1949 What's the something else you are trying to point to? What Gurdijeff said sounded very similar to what ZD was saying, in that before enlightenment there is a difference between Me and the objective world and after enlightenment that difference doesn't exist. Enlightenment is your destiny and not a destination for a few. Hey source, Pointing to the third state of consciousness, I will try to give an analogy. There are people who are colorblind, I used to work with one. He could not tell blue from green, very bad for an electrician, because green is ground, blue is a current carrying colored wire, if you mix them up you get a big boom and lots of melted wire. Gurdjieff said there we have the possibility of four different states of consciousness; #1, ordinary sleep; #2, the so-called waking consciousness, what we are in now, what we call being awake, but what Gurdjieff said is actually sleep, what he called sleep. This is how most of mankind operates, these two states. But there is a third state of consciousness, #3, self-remembering. In this state you are objective concerning yourself, you have self-knowledge and actual awakeness; #4, objective consciousness, you see the world objectively. From the analogy, state #2 is like being colorblind. State of consciousness #3 is like having an operation and now being able to distinguish the colors blue and green. Adding to the analogy let's pick on Gopal, welcome back. As analogy, let's say Gopal is colorblind, when he looks at green and blue things, he sees only green. There is a means to cure Gopal's colorblindness, meditation. By meditation or by ATA-T, Gopal could eventually distinguish two colors, like ZD, Tzu, L, quinn, others. But of course he doesn't believe this is possible, he's sure there is no such thing as blue. And we all know how he feels about meditation and ATA-T. (But he says he has done them and is done with them, no benefit). You saying what Gurdjieff said sounded very similar to what ZD was saying, is like not being able to distinguish blue from green. In one way or another this is mostly what I've posted about here on ST's, most of my threads anyway, otherwise, maybe 75% - 80% of posting, so you could go back and read my posts to get a full account. But even differences in words can easily be picked out, here on this thread. Gurdjieff, in the quotes, said that people can have rare flashes of the third state of consciousness, that means maybe 2 or 3 or 4 times in your life, but it can be acquired by long and difficult work. Can you not see that that is different from what you hear here on ST's? By long and difficult work Gurdjieff means mostly interior practices beginning with the practices self-remembering and self-observation. A third major practice is division of attention. When I bring this up (almost) everyone says, you can't divide your attention. These are differences. If you bring up practice, most people here say either one cannot practice or that practice is not necessary. These are differences. ZD just wrote, just pump gas, nothing special, read the whole sentence. Saying that to me is like saying, just stop breathing. As I have said many times here, Self-realization is not in my vocabulary, ATST, I appreciate everything ZD has spent time on posting to me. In my tradition we never describe experiences, even to your own teacher, and they are never written down. Part of the reason for this is so no one can ever try to imagine what's next, or think they can imagine what's next, imagination is very powerful. So in this posting (this whole thread), I have gone virtually as far as I can, by pointing. If no one sees any difference or any value in what I write, then that can't be helped. But thanks very much for your reply, and this answer doesn't mean I'm saying to you to stop asking. That's all I have right now, something else may come up later....... Most people will dialogue with me only so far, then give up. It is like they say (inside) Poor sdp, he will never understand. That's OK. edit: I thought of another analogy, the movie Pleasantville. In it a brother and sister are "magically" zapped into a kind of '50's black and white TV world. The people in this world are kind-of cardboard TV characters, emotionally-psychologically trapped. The brother and sister try to fit in, this has become their life. But they can't exactly fit in, and sort of begin to ~infect~ their friends and others. And those ~infected~ become ~more real~ and some begin to change from black and white to color. Of course it's very weird, they don't know what's happening, but it's good and nice and wonderfully different, fuller. When there is a "psychological" change in the person, an ~"awakening"~, they see color and become color. And then town leaders try to put a stop to it, one adult even puts black and white makeup on to hide her color. Interesting film. Reese Witherspoon, Toby Maguire, Jeff Daniels, Joan Allen, William H Macy, Paul Walker, Don Knotts I don't understand your last sentence, Enlightenment is your destiny and not a destination for a few. Does that mean everyone eventually gets Enlightened?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 15:39:32 GMT -5
What's the something else you are trying to point to? What Gurdijeff said sounded very similar to what ZD was saying, in that before enlightenment there is a difference between Me and the objective world and after enlightenment that difference doesn't exist. Enlightenment is your destiny and not a destination for a few. Hey source, Pointing to the third state of consciousness, I will try to give an analogy. There are people who are colorblind, I used to work with one. He could not tell blue from green, very bad for an electrician, because green is ground, blue is a current carrying colored wire, if you mix them up you get a big boom and lots of melted wire. Gurdjieff said there we have the possibility of four different states of consciousness; #1, ordinary sleep; #2, the so-called waking consciousness, what we are in now, what we call being awake, but what Gurdjieff said is actually sleep, what he called sleep. This is how most of mankind operates, these two states. But there is a third state of consciousness, #3, self-remembering. In this state you are objective concerning yourself, you have self-knowledge and actual awakeness; #4, objective consciousness, you see the world objectively. From the analogy, state #2 is like being colorblind. State of consciousness #3 is like having an operation and now being able to distinguish the colors blue and green. Adding to the analogy let's pick on Gopal, welcome back. As analogy, let's say Gopal is colorblind, when he looks at green and blue things, he sees only green. There is a means to cure Gopal's colorblindness, meditation. By meditation or by ATA-T, Gopal could eventually distinguish two colors, like ZD, Tzu, L, quinn, others. But of course he doesn't believe this is possible, he's sure there is no such thing as blue. And we all know how he feels about meditation and ATA-T. (But he says he has done them and is done with them, no benefit). You saying what Gurdjieff said sounded very similar to what ZD was saying, is like not being able to distinguish blue from green. In one way or another this is mostly what I've posted about here on ST's, most of my threads anyway, otherwise, maybe 75% - 80% of posting, so you could go back and read my posts to get a full account. But even differences in words can easily be picked out, here on this thread. Gurdjieff, in the quotes, said that people can have rare flashes of the third state of consciousness, that means maybe 2 or 3 or 4 times in your life, but it can be acquired by long and difficult work. Can you not see that that is different from what you hear here on ST's? By long and difficult work Gurdjieff means mostly interior practices beginning with the practices self-remembering and self-observation. A third major practice is division of attention. When I bring this up (almost) everyone says, you can't divide your attention. These are differences. If you bring up practice, most people here say either one cannot practice or that practice is not necessary. These are differences. ZD just wrote, just pump gas, nothing special, read the whole sentence. Saying that to me is like saying, just stop breathing. As I have said many times here, Self-realization is not in my vocabulary, ATST, I appreciate everything ZD has spent time on posting to me. In my tradition we never describe experiences, even to your own teacher, and they are never written down. Part of the reason for this is so no one can ever try to imagine what's next, or think they can imagine what's next, imagination is very powerful. So in this posting (this whole thread), I have gone virtually as far as I can, by pointing. If no one sees any difference or any value in what I write, then that can't be helped. But thanks very much for your reply, and this answer doesn't mean I'm saying to you to stop asking. That's all I have right now, something else may come up later....... Most people will dialogue with me only so far, then give up. It is like they say (inside) Poor sdp, he will never understand. That's OK. I don't understand your last sentence, Enlightenment is your destiny and not a destination for a few. Does that mean everyone eventually gets Enlightened? Yes, everyone which is really just you, is in what seems like a time based association of waking up. But it actually doesn't take any time. Which means that you have already woken up. This objective reality was over a moment after it appeared.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 4, 2016 16:06:57 GMT -5
Hey source, Pointing to the third state of consciousness, I will try to give an analogy. There are people who are colorblind, I used to work with one. He could not tell blue from green, very bad for an electrician, because green is ground, blue is a current carrying colored wire, if you mix them up you get a big boom and lots of melted wire. Gurdjieff said there we have the possibility of four different states of consciousness; #1, ordinary sleep; #2, the so-called waking consciousness, what we are in now, what we call being awake, but what Gurdjieff said is actually sleep, what he called sleep. This is how most of mankind operates, these two states. But there is a third state of consciousness, #3, self-remembering. In this state you are objective concerning yourself, you have self-knowledge and actual awakeness; #4, objective consciousness, you see the world objectively. From the analogy, state #2 is like being colorblind. State of consciousness #3 is like having an operation and now being able to distinguish the colors blue and green. Adding to the analogy let's pick on Gopal, welcome back. As analogy, let's say Gopal is colorblind, when he looks at green and blue things, he sees only green. There is a means to cure Gopal's colorblindness, meditation. By meditation or by ATA-T, Gopal could eventually distinguish two colors, like ZD, Tzu, L, quinn, others. But of course he doesn't believe this is possible, he's sure there is no such thing as blue. And we all know how he feels about meditation and ATA-T. (But he says he has done them and is done with them, no benefit). You saying what Gurdjieff said sounded very similar to what ZD was saying, is like not being able to distinguish blue from green. In one way or another this is mostly what I've posted about here on ST's, most of my threads anyway, otherwise, maybe 75% - 80% of posting, so you could go back and read my posts to get a full account. But even differences in words can easily be picked out, here on this thread. Gurdjieff, in the quotes, said that people can have rare flashes of the third state of consciousness, that means maybe 2 or 3 or 4 times in your life, but it can be acquired by long and difficult work. Can you not see that that is different from what you hear here on ST's? By long and difficult work Gurdjieff means mostly interior practices beginning with the practices self-remembering and self-observation. A third major practice is division of attention. When I bring this up (almost) everyone says, you can't divide your attention. These are differences. If you bring up practice, most people here say either one cannot practice or that practice is not necessary. These are differences. ZD just wrote, just pump gas, nothing special, read the whole sentence. Saying that to me is like saying, just stop breathing. As I have said many times here, Self-realization is not in my vocabulary, ATST, I appreciate everything ZD has spent time on posting to me. In my tradition we never describe experiences, even to your own teacher, and they are never written down. Part of the reason for this is so no one can ever try to imagine what's next, or think they can imagine what's next, imagination is very powerful. So in this posting (this whole thread), I have gone virtually as far as I can, by pointing. If no one sees any difference or any value in what I write, then that can't be helped. But thanks very much for your reply, and this answer doesn't mean I'm saying to you to stop asking. That's all I have right now, something else may come up later....... Most people will dialogue with me only so far, then give up. It is like they say (inside) Poor sdp, he will never understand. That's OK. I don't understand your last sentence, Enlightenment is your destiny and not a destination for a few. Does that mean everyone eventually gets Enlightened? Yes, everyone which is really just you, is in what seems like a time based association of waking up. But it actually doesn't take any time. Which means that you have already woken up. This objective reality was over a moment after it appeared. OK, as long as you are completely honest with yourself on that account, no deception, I happy for you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 16:28:04 GMT -5
Yes, everyone which is really just you, is in what seems like a time based association of waking up. But it actually doesn't take any time. Which means that you have already woken up. This objective reality was over a moment after it appeared. OK, as long as you are completely honest with yourself on that account, no deception, I happy for you. Why isn't the prospect of that idea exciting you instead of turning into a thought of uncertainty within your own mind, which you then project out into the world? It's a conceptual drag on the new re-association of your self as Universal Mind. The awakening process is one of inclusion, so you just have to see that every form or thought you are having in each moment can spring into the Light of your Singular reality. Isn't that exciting to you?
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 4, 2016 19:40:43 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with any of that, it's just that I'm trying to point to something else. I will reply with some quotes, from In Search of the Miraculous. " .....said Gurdjieff. ...'Only one thing is true in what you have said: that you can know consciousness only in yourself....you can know it only when you have it. ...By observing in yourself the appearance and the disappearance of consciousness you will inevitably see one fact which you neither see nor acknowledge now, and that is that moments of consciousness are very short and are separated by long intervals of completely unconscious, mechanical working of the machine. You will then see that you can think, feel, act, speak, work, without being conscious of it.' (pg 116) ...'In reality consciousness is a property which is constantly changing. No it is present, now it is not present. And there are different degrees and different levels of consciousness'. (pg 117) ..... 'What is the most important thing we notice during self-observation?' .... Gurdjieff was obviously dissatisfied with our replies. .....'Not one of you has noticed the most important thing I have pointed out to you', he said. 'That is to say, not one of you has noticed that you do not remember yourselves.' (He gave particular emphasis to these words). .......'Only those results will have any value that are accompanied by self-remembering. Otherwise you yourselves do not exist in your observations.' ...Attempts at self-remembering failed to give any results except to show me that in actual fact we never remember ourselves. 'What else do you want?' said Gurdjieff. 'This is a very important realization. People who know this' (he emphasized these words) already know a great deal. The whole trouble is that nobody knows it'. (pgs 117,118) 'The third state of consciousness is self-remembering or self-consciousness or consciousness of one's being. It is usual to consider that we have this state of consciousness or that we can have it if we want it. ....It can be said without any exaggeration that at the present time the third state of consciousness occurs in man only in the form of rare flashes and that it can be made more or less permanent in him... For most people, even for educated and thinking people, the chief obstacle in acquiring self-consciousness consists in the fact that they think they possess it ...It is evident that a man will not be interested if you tell him that he can acquire by long and difficult work something which, in his opinion, he already has.' " (pgs 141,142) ISofM by PD Ouspensky, 1949 What's the something else you are trying to point to? What Gurdijeff said sounded very similar to what ZD was saying, in that before enlightenment there is a difference between Me and the objective world and after enlightenment that difference doesn't exist. Enlightenment is your destiny and not a destination for a few. I sense no similarity between Gurdy, and ZD.. ZD's understanding eclipses 'enlightenment', enlightenment is a distraction from clarity.. ZD's post describes what is possible when people are willing to walk away from the Spiritual Circus, when people stop paying the price of admission to a Circus that charges them their clarity..
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Post by laughter on Apr 4, 2016 20:33:40 GMT -5
Comparative enlightenment for the purposes of supporting an ego is a rather obvious contradiction in terms.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 5, 2016 0:19:10 GMT -5
OK, as long as you are completely honest with yourself on that account, no deception, I happy for you. Why isn't the prospect of that idea exciting you instead of turning into a thought of uncertainty within your own mind, which you then project out into the world? It's a conceptual drag on the new re-association of your self as Universal Mind.The awakening process is one of inclusion, so you just have to see that every form or thought you are having in each moment can spring into the Light of your Singular reality. Isn't that exciting to you? No thoughts are exciting for me unless they have the possibility of being verified or have been verified. The "Light of your Singular reality", those words mean absolutely nothing to me, no, not exciting. All the underlined, just conceptual verbiage. What most people know themselves as, is mostly conceptual structure. Of course some here have gotten beyond that and describe it fairly well. But for the most part, for most people, new ideas have to get past that conceptual wall. This is exceptionally difficult to do. We generally allow in only what corresponds in some way to the structure that's already there. So I just share stuff. I have zero control concerning whether it can get past individual conceptual walls or not. All ideas, all concepts, are superfluous unless one also works with attention and awareness. "Forms or thoughts" do not spring into anything.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 11:54:45 GMT -5
Why isn't the prospect of that idea exciting you instead of turning into a thought of uncertainty within your own mind, which you then project out into the world? It's a conceptual drag on the new re-association of your self as Universal Mind.The awakening process is one of inclusion, so you just have to see that every form or thought you are having in each moment can spring into the Light of your Singular reality. Isn't that exciting to you? No thoughts are exciting for me unless they have the possibility of being verified or have been verified. The "Light of your Singular reality", those words mean absolutely nothing to me, no, not exciting. All the underlined, just conceptual verbiage. What most people know themselves as, is mostly conceptual structure. Of course some here have gotten beyond that and describe it fairly well. But for the most part, for most people, new ideas have to get past that conceptual wall. This is exceptionally difficult to do. We generally allow in only what corresponds in some way to the structure that's already there. So I just share stuff. I have zero control concerning whether it can get past individual conceptual walls or not. All ideas, all concepts, are superfluous unless one also works with attention and awareness. "Forms or thoughts" do not spring into anything. The conceptual wall or to go beyond thought is only an idea or distinction for separating yourself (awareness) out from what you are aware of(objective conceptual reality). One way to do that is to know for sure that you are not a body. Why? Because you are not a body. You are separating yourself (awareness) out from the experience of a physical body. If you can do that then you will be on your way to separating yourself out from the objective world. Are you getting this?
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