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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 13:11:46 GMT -5
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2016 14:18:41 GMT -5
That's a very good question, Andrew, indeed. I think I'll stick with this thread here because I have an agreement with Peter not to comment in other threads and limit my comments here to not more than 3 off-topic posts a day. And since you're back in town, I think I can live with this restrictions, unless some others here think I should also comment in other threads if I feel inclined to do so. It's not up to me right now. If Peter gives me permission to also post in other threads, I will. Else I don't. A very odd state of affairs then! It' not up to me either obviously, but I would like to see you commenting. I can see why some would see you as disrupting and hampering 'spiritual conversation', but it seems obvious to me that you have broad and diverse spiritual understanding, and have an interesting view on things. Perhaps also you challenged some sacred cows here a little too strongly  I've been here a few years, and it's as much political here as it is spiritual.  |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 14:38:35 GMT -5
A very odd state of affairs then! It' not up to me either obviously, but I would like to see you commenting. I can see why some would see you as disrupting and hampering 'spiritual conversation', but it seems obvious to me that you have broad and diverse spiritual understanding, and have an interesting view on things. Perhaps also you challenged some sacred cows here a little too strongly I've been here a few years, and it's as much political here as it is spiritual. - A short insight into the Throwdare family-buisness (At a funeral. Some cousin or so died and the family is gathered. A lot of people want to see Donna Anja. One of them is her cousin Gopal from India.)Laffy: "Donna Anja, Gopal is waiting outside. He wants to condolence and he has some...well...he has a little problem only you can solve, he said." Donna Anja: "Let him in. How many more people want to see me next...for today, Laffy?" Laffy: "He's the last one." Donna Anja: "He came all the way from India just because some of our cousins died?" Laffy: "Yes. He thought it would be appropreate." ................ Gopal: "Donna Anja! How lovely you look! Have you had plastic-surgery? You lost weight, right?" Donna Anja: "I just have a new hair-stylist. That's all. What do you want, cousin Gopal?" Gopal: "There is this young woman I like a lot. Actually I love her. But her father is cathlic and I'm not of his liking and therfore I can't marry her. He told me to screw me as I asked him for his daughers hand. Now I need justice." Donna Anja: "Does that girl love you too?" Gopal: "Yes, she does. But she also obeys her father. Romeo and Juliet...kinda sorta...is the problem here." Donna Anja: "What do you want me to do?" Gopal: "Tell that old men it's not his buisness who his daughter will marry. Or just kill him." Donna Anja: "I don't just kill people, cousin Gopal. That you should know by now." Gopal: "But...but...then...just tell him off. Or bribe him. Or...whatever it is you do in such cases!"" |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 15:36:24 GMT -5
Zendancer said: "Freejoy has repeatedly opined that enlightened people are greedy. Is that really true, and what are the issues surrounding the idea of greed? Warren Buffett is the third richest person in the world, but he's leaving 99% of his personal wealth to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to help eradicate disease and help people who live in poverty. Is Buffett greedy? Well, he's lived in the same house for more than fifty years (for which he paid $40,000). His tastes are reportedly quite modest, and his honesty, integrity, fairness, and kindness are legendary. His company, Berkshire Hathaway, probably employs a million people, directly or indirectly. He just happens to be a financial genius who loves investing in businesses. A recent book about Buffett is titled "Tap Dancing Through Life" because Buffett has described his work as a form of enjoyable play. He loves what he does, and is highly successful at it, but to him it is like a game. Is his accumulation of personal wealth a sign of greed if he isn't attached to it and if he's going to give almost all of it to charity when he dies? Buffett isn't enlightened (because he thinks he's a person), but he's happy, content, and doesn't seem to worry about anything more than the unfairness of the American tax system (he thinks that wealthy people should pay a lot more taxes than they currently do). I have met numerous enlightened people, and not one of them seems interested in personal aggrandizement. Some of them are poor, and some of them have considerable personal wealth, but those who have considerable wealth not one of them seems attached to it. From what I've seen, the single biggest joy of enlightened people is pointing people to the truth of who they really are. Eckhart Tolle is often criticized by people writing on spiritual websites because he has written several best-selling books, his website is highly commercialized, and people assume that he has amassed a fortune. If it has gone into his bank account, what has he done with the money? No one really knows, but he seems like a very unassuming fellow, and it is hard to imagine that he has any interest in accumulating either a lot of money or a lot of stuff. Like Buffett, Tolle seems to enjoy what he does, and what he does is write and teach about non-duality. Until someone provides evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that Tolle is not greedy.I think Adya, Gangaji, and several other non-duality teachers have foundations that were set up by their followers to support the teachings, and are also used for prison ministries and other charitable activities. I have never heard anyone report any activity by these teachers that could be interpreted as greedy. There are a few gurus, like Cohen, who have done questionable things, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.Greed is usually a result of egocentric desire, so in this sense desiring to get into heaven exhibits more greed than what Buffett does. The crazy Muslim zealot who blows up himself and others to advance his religion, so that he'll be rewarded with 42 virgins in heaven, is about as greedy as it gets. A lot can be written about this subject, but maybe these few lines can get the ball rolling so that people might consider the idea of greed from a somewhat deeper perspective." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/3164/warren-buffett-greedy-attack-thread#ixzz4JVffrh7r1.) There are no "enlightened people", whatsoever, Zendancer! Unless you mean by "enlightened people" people who belong to what I call the sat-anic pyramid, which is a club I certainly, most definitely do not belong to. 2.) What ever "charity" Bill Gates and Warren Buffet and other billonaeres engage in, in the global capitalistic economical system, I consider as just this: stealing from the regular people and then pretending to finance and support some foundations, build by those thiefs and robbers in suits, to let them look good. Do good and talk about it. Which in fact is just: steal 1000 bucks by exploiting regular working people and then give them back 10 bucks and feel good about it. Disgusting! 3.) Now you open another can of worms by comparing Gangaji with Andrew Cohen. And you think that Andrew Cohen is the bad guy here and Gangaji is the nice and "enlightened" guru, while Andrew is a greedy false guru? I think Andrew, at least, admitted he was doing something wrong and retired from the guru-buisness, while Gangaji and her student-pleasing husband pretend nothing is wrong in neo-advaita-guru-land so far. 4.) Eckhard Tolle, in my book, is as much enlightened as the next supermarket-casher. He just sits on a stage and talks down to seekers who don't know better. Who needs Tolle for survival anyway? But do we need farmers, doctors and those who really engage in important stuff, other than talking "I'm soooo enlightened. Please follow my advice." Tolle, eh, forget it. 5.) Also you seem to engage in muslim bashing. Calling them, with a broad stroke, "zealots who blow themselfs up". While educated people know that the ones who do that, blowing themselfs up, are mind-controlled by what I call a theocratic-power-system, which is interested in letting regular muslims look as if they are insane maniacs. You, Zendancer, seem to know as much about what is really going on behind the curtain of the obvious as a new born baby. Or you are an insider, doing his job, throwing dirt at a strawmen. |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 16:29:28 GMT -5
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 16:51:40 GMT -5
Zendancer said: "No. The thread I remember was about personal finance--ways to make money, save money, invest money, etc. People listed different kinds of basic financial advice--the kinds of info that're commonly discussed on personal finance radio and TV shows. I remember writing about how much money can be saved by buying and driving older used cars rather than taking the depreciation hit on new cars. Some of the stories people told were pretty funny. The basic info can be summarized as: 1. Get out of debt 2. Learn about ways to live frugally 3. Learn about finance and investing 4. Learn to live on less than you earn 5. Invest what you save in things that generate cash 6. Invest the generated cash in other things that generate cash 7. Rinse and repeat until investments take on a life of their own and throw off enough passive income to support whatever you want to do If you can find the thread, it would be fun to update it and get input from folks who weren't around at that time." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4696/#ixzz4JVwU7Mq31.) Good advice. 2.) Learn how to live happily without much money. Give and receive and give and receive..etc. without even thinking about it. Just be yourself, under the law of AHIMSA (non-violence), open your eyes and ears and see and hear what is going on around you. 3.) Learn how to be content with yourself only. After that is done, what ever will happen is amusing. 4.) Good advice. 5.) Invest the cash in supporting your local dealers. That will turn back on you positivly by you being supported by your local dealers also. 6.) Invest the cash to secure your low level life-standard and the rest invest in exposing what needs to be exposed. Or invest it in what ever you feel is appropreate and can benefit others. 7.) Rinse and repeat... Engage in the zen of capitalism only if you want the currant state of affairs to continue. Else just don't. |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 17:11:17 GMT -5
Zendancer said: "I write about making money, saving money, and investing money so that money can go to work, take on a life of its own, and leave people free to pursue their other interests. I picture wealth creation as similar to forming a snowball that will roll downhill indefinitely increasing in both size and speed. Similar to the pathless path that leads to existential understanding, the path to financial freedom requires freedom from culturally-indoctrinated ideas, a willingness to leave the crowd behind, and significant changes in behavior. From what I've seen, very few people are seriously interested in either path. In the words of Byron Katie, "That's just the way of it." LOL" Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4696/#ixzz4JW4USEUm"Making money" should not even be an issue. Like at all. I write about having all the neccessary things in life for free, like: education, housing and/or having a piece of land to grow fruits and vegetables on and/or farming animals biologically correct on it, health-care, communication devices,...etc. What I mean by that is: The basics of life should be free of charge. Only then true real progress can be made, when people don't work to sustain mere survival, but to make and engage in what they think they can do best. If nobody has to work for mere survival, because that is a given, then, and only then, progress can be made for ALL human beings and other mammals and nature as such. As long as the capitalistic economical system is running the show, which never was really threatened and challenged by any kind of other form of economy/political system ever, other than a free-market system in a social democrasy in the 20. century, no progress as a species will be made. The nature of the capitalistic economical system is: Sustaining and maintaining a theocratic oligarchie all around the world, for the sake of so called "bloodlines", who are "iniciated" into the fact that there is no such thing as DEATH, keeping the resources always in the same bloodlines. That is what Karl Marx' actual message was all about. "The accumulation of capital" is what he called it. It can not properly be understood without knowing that there is no death. Karl Marx was not an atheist. He was an anti-theist for some good reasons. And to destroy national economies is also part of the global capitalistic economical system. Some call it the sat-anic pyramid. Now, Zendancer, here are my questions: What is zen? What does that term mean? What is that term refering to? What tradition do you belong to? |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 17:43:49 GMT -5
Peter said: "I thought about discussing the Money topic back in an old thread but it's not quite the same subject - it links to an interesting podcast on "Money as a Spiritual Asset" though, so I include it here. I still find it difficult to discuss money in a spiritual context, and it's interesting that in so many spiritual communities it becomes an issue. The big Money thing for me is realising that things that you consider assets aren't usually assets at all, since they don't make you money. Cars especially are just black money holes, as I see it. Well lets kick off a list of money advice and see if we can get your book to write itself (or at least, it's contents page): 1. Spend less than you earn. Do whatever it takes. Move back in with your parents, anything. Do not use credit. 2. If possible, organise your life so that you don't need to have a car 3. Buy a house, don't rent. 4. Make it your life's mission to pay off your mortgage. Do whatever it takes. Don't buy a house so big (or in such an expensive location) that it leaves you unable to get on top of your mortgage. 5. Save up money if you want to buy something. Do not use credit. 6. Stock up on the 2 for 1 supermarket offers. Don't be brand loyal. 7. Cultivate a love of tap water. The thing about not living paycheck to paycheck is that you have to get your pay above the point where you're just clearing your bills each month, otherwise you're never going to have any room to manoeuvre. It's all about disposable income. Lower the bills or raise the paycheck. And what I'll say about people around me who seem to be earning a lot is that they have an air of confidence about them. It's like they assume that they deserve to be paid that much. They expect it to happen, and it does. Well that's me on "How to not be in debt". For "What to do with all that extra income you're going to have once you're living rent free"...I'll leave that open." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/382/money#ixzz4JWCB0sGvI have not much to add to this. I already did with the above post of mine add to what is said here. Yeah... ...just don't feed the capitalistic parasites. Then, and only then, something of some value can open up. Else not. "That's all." |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 18:02:27 GMT -5
Stardustpilgrim, I would be interested in talking about what you think Gurdijeff's core teaching was. I think it was the enneagram. But not merely as a personality-typology for group-therapie. The ennegram, IMNHO is a means for evaluating and developing all nine types in one self and it also can be used for all kinds of other stuff to understand it better. I read many books on the enneagram by different authors a few years ago but non of them really seem to get it properly nailed what it actually is. How to use that tool in a way that is more than just an archetypology. For example: How are colours related to the enneagram? I once draw a 12-part colour-circle and into it the enneagram. Interested in a discussion about that? No, it's not the enneagram. The enneagram (which Gurdjieff did make public, was previously hidden) got morphed into the nine personality types, this did not come from Gurdjieff. (There are essence-types, but not personality types, and the nine are not essence types either. I think the "personality types" originated from Oscar Ichazo and Claudio Naranjo, and exploded from there). The enneagram is a symbol of the relationship between the two fundamental laws of the universe, the law of seven (or the law of octaves) and the law of three. Divide a circle into nine equal segments, creating nine points, number them. Divide seven into one, you get the repeating numbers, 1-4-2-8-5-7. Start at one and connect those points and end at one. Then connect the remaining numbers (of 1-9), 3-6-9, and you will form a triangle, and that's the enneagram. Gurdjieff said all objective knowledge could be placed into the enneagram. The core teaching is about how to become conscious, everything goes back to that. Many things that are written refer back to this, but actual interior practices are not written down. (There are somewhat-very-few-exceptions-to-this, but you can't really recognize the exceptions unless you already know the practices). Gurdjieff said he wrote the books to preserve the theory (and the philosophy), [not the practices]. If you want to discuss this (further), start an appropriate thread. I think all that jazz Gurdijeff and his disciples engaged in could only happen because most of his disciples were upper-middle-class people who had the money and the time to engage in such stuff they engaged in. Typical upper-middle-class stuff, like seeking more ... whatever... is what they dealt in. Seen through the glasses of class-theory, of course. And yes, I get it. They also lacked something. Although they could affort to hang out with a dude like Gurdijeff. But they have been privileged people with too much spare time, nevertheless. But one thing speaks for them, for Gurdijeff and his group. And that is: He, Gurdijeff, utterly denied and disregarded that other authoritarian creep from England, who is said to have shown up one time: Aleister Crowley. Gurdijeff said about Crowley, I heard through the grapewine: "He's of a dirty, filthy and mean spirit." |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 18:21:27 GMT -5
Enigma said: "As a teenager, I saw the universe as malevolent, and God as my immortal enemy. Nothing else made sense to me. Later, I came to see it as uncaring, which is to say uninvolved in it's own creation, leaving the chips to fall where they may. Now I know it to be benevolent, and yet explaining how that can be in the face of some unspeakable horrors has escaped me for a long time. Maybe there is a way. We can talk about how the universe unfolds from the perspective of manifestation as the dream forms from within the dream, which places human consciousness center stage in that unfolding. The person does not create his own reality, as there is nothing separate that can create, but this does not mean the thoughts and feelings of the person are not the creative force of the world, only that the individual is not the author of those thought/feelings. Many fear their own negative thoughts, which are themselves borne of fear, but fear is not a part of the force of creation. What you are is God, and God is Love, and Love is the force of creation. Fear is not Love, but rather that which seems to block Love, and in this context, to block the benevolence of the universe; to block your desire. I'm going to make the radical statement that creation is the expression of desire, unrestrained by fear. I understand the difficulty in reconciling that statement with the world as it appears. Desire resides at both conscious and unconscious levels, and they often conflict. To understand unconscious desire one must realize that the unconscious is not rational. That fascination with destructive acts of nature and horrific car crashes, and with evil itself, is innocent and naive and does not account for the human cost of such manifestations. Without benefit of the reasoning mind it has no means of predicting the implications of it's interest, which is sometimes a better word than desire when it comes to creating suffering. From a conscious perspective, it becomes clear why and how we manifest what we do not consciously desire, from that which we unconsciously desire, and in that clarity, the unconscious desire fades. It also becomes clear that the universe is a movement of Love, propelled by sentient desire, given birth through a consciousness that has fallen into it's own dream and temporarily lost it's way." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4702/universe-benevolent#ixzz4JWLcbpoMIn my point of view, we can not know if the universe is benevolent or not if we, as the human species, have not even solved our very own problems regarding the issue of good and evil. What do we pretend to know about the whole universe, if don't even know ourselfs yet? |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 18:31:10 GMT -5
Gopal said: "The problem is not with God has fallen into his own dream or Consciousness has fallen into it's own dream, but the problem is, Consciousness has fallen into it's own dream through MULTIPLE individuated perspective and it still maintains the integrated expression. God has fallen into his own Dream if other individuals are figments, If other individuals are real, then Universal movements are predetermined by some mysterious force." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4702/universe-benevolent#ixzz4JWNXUh8YAs long as one seperates "Consciousness" (Chit in sanskrit) from Sat(being) and Ananda (bliss), nothing can be understood. And "God" is not conscious as long as that is not understood. It is Sat-Chit-Ananda, non-dual, a-dvaita! It's impossible to talk about it seperately! Do I sould like Satch right now? If so, I wonder how comes. |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 18:39:56 GMT -5
Laughter said: "Before the fall of 2009 I would have scoffed at the notion of perfection, and with outright hostility. From 2009 to 2011, I was curious about it, but even more curious about why it wasn't so easy to scoff anymore. " Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4702/universe-benevolent#ixzz4JWQa1LcSThe difference between you and me, Laffy, (still) is: I don't talk about "perfection" as being the case, although it is for me, because it isn't for others. Now massage my feet... |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 18:48:46 GMT -5
Enigma said: "He's saying "What happens if we stop imagining". Separation is part of what's imagined." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4702/universe-benevolent#ixzz4JWSOaeXTNo, seperation is neccessary for discernment. Discernment is neccessary for seperating "who is who and what is what". And that is neccessary to get to know what is the case, else one just submits to some .... you name it, without knowing what it is one submits to. "You need to know what it is you are not." (Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj....paraphrased) |
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 18:52:47 GMT -5
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Post by billfromtexas on Sept 6, 2016 18:57:09 GMT -5
Gopal said: "If you have the choice God can't know the future. If he can't know the future, he can't fulfill his plan." Enigma replied: "Unless he has a sophisticated program that compensates for everybody's wrong choices.  " Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4703/divine-plan#ixzz4JWUzkTBz"God"..."he"...Enigma? So "God" has a gender and is male? Interesting! Edit: As I see it...what is/was played out here on STF, the (un)-holy trinity, Gopal, Enigma and Laughter, playing the parts of what is considered as a whole, Sat-Chit-Ananda, but done as parts only by the former trinity, Gopal playing Chit (Consciouness), Enigma playing Sat (Truth/Being) and Laughter playing Ananda (Bliss), they now seem to have some problems getting their roles seperated. Edit, part II: Too many cooks spoil the meal. Too many pricks fight each others ducks. (That being expressed this way for the lack of being able to make a proper joke about it by naming some body-parts properly...yadda-yadda...)  |
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I've been here a few years, and it's as much political here as it is spiritual. 
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