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Post by preciocho on Aug 23, 2016 21:35:53 GMT -5
I was only kidding about the figment thing. That was from a Gopal discussion weeks ago that I found amusing.
Um, otherwise, have you ever experienced a coincidence? If so, my suggestion is that you find something coincidental because it is a meaningful experience.
I've always been fascinated by coincidences. There is always a statistical possibility of a coincidence happening yet the mind can interpret it as having some kind of mystical significance. Who knows. The other interesting experience is deja vu. Yea deja vu. On the coincidence level, Yadira is sitting next to me in the bed and recognized your symbol in the icon just now as the same symbol from the painting on our wall, hehe.
On the level of meaning, I spose the meaning of a coincidence is whatever the individuals chooses to supply it with. When there's personal unconsciousness involved the meaning will almost inevitably be in furtherance of the avoidance of unconsciousness or in some sort of self seeking loop. I spose in the more highly conscious it may just lead to a heightened enjoyment of the moment or appreciation for life and being alive. Jed McKenna talks about making micro adjustments to the trajectory and things like that and synchronicity or 'signs' can be a part of that interplay.
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Post by preciocho on Aug 23, 2016 21:40:57 GMT -5
You just shared a bunch of ideas, which is fine, really. Regardless, a fascination with thinking isn't an indication of unconsciousness. Of course it is. You are unconscious of awareness because your attention is fully engaged with your fascination of conceptual thought. Conceptual thought is fascinating, just not if you want to be free of it. I'm not all that fascinated with my own concepts, more human behavior in general.
Otherwise, if your fascinated with how to build a race car engine, you may find called to use a high amount of conceptual thinking in creating a design. The idea you can 'lose' what 'you are' by thinking a lot about anything is the delusion or unconscious bit.
At the same time, I appreciate what you're pointing to, in that often times in the 'unconscious state' the tendency to be lost in thought without consciousness of a way out (or that consciousness is already out) can be debilitating. I imagine most forum members here have a reference for that unconscious pull of attention.
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Post by laughter on Aug 23, 2016 21:57:19 GMT -5
Yes, the process of becoming conscious definitely feels to the peep as if it's a process of integration. The mind is vulnerable to a deception here, in that it can ascribe causality to an abstract "whole", which mind can never wrap itself around. Peeps can even understand this intellectually but yet the attachment to an idea of oneness remains, unconsciously fragmented. I'm not entirely sure what you mean on ascribing causality to an abstract whole. Obviously, the idea of oneness is not what oneness is pointing to. The experience of oneness is not the experience of a separate person at the center of an impossible to divide whole universe. The loss of consciousness or the gaining of identification comes through rejection of personal experience, which is a rejection of the universe relative to the person, or vice versa. These personal rejections aren't random, but perfectly ordered. Synchronicity reveals that perfect order in a personally meaningful way (or universally, depends on how you look at it). The source of the person's perception is not the person, and the idea one is separate from that source isn't true.
Right you see the intellect can fool itself and settle for an understanding of the distinction between the oneness and the idea of oneness when it turns out that's actually some very deep water. It's essentially the same dynamic that you were writing about here and here for instance. And it can happen with any pointer. If we take that order you refer to for instance, this is something that really has to be felt and yes the synchs can be a part of that. There's other facets to this aspect of what feels like integration that involve perceiving this beautiful constant movement that sustains us as essentially loving and benevolent, and that even in face of some of it's less than lovely and perhaps even more malignant aspects. A good rule of thumb for likely unconscious compartmentalization would be objections to ideas like "God's Love", even as the intellect has accepted and adopted the notion of an ordered Universe. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 23, 2016 22:07:57 GMT -5
When she says she's not upset, just dismayed and frustrated, you don't think maybe she's being disagreeable? To be upset, dismayed and frustrated doesn't necessarily mean one has to be disagreeable. That's not what I'm saying. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 23, 2016 22:12:46 GMT -5
I've always been fascinated by coincidences. There is always a statistical possibility of a coincidence happening yet the mind can interpret it as having some kind of mystical significance. Who knows. The other interesting experience is deja vu. Yea deja vu. On the coincidence level, Yadira is sitting next to me in the bed and recognized your symbol in the icon just now as the same symbol from the painting on our wall, hehe.
On the level of meaning, I spose the meaning of a coincidence is whatever the individuals chooses to supply it with. When there's personal unconsciousness involved the meaning will almost inevitably be in furtherance of the avoidance of unconsciousness or in some sort of self seeking loop. I spose in the more highly conscious it may just lead to a heightened enjoyment of the moment or appreciation for life and being alive. Jed McKenna talks about making micro adjustments to the trajectory and things like that and synchronicity or 'signs' can be a part of that interplay.
Yes, that's about the simple size of it at the practical level -- without going into all those cool details under the hood  -- and the left brainiacs have some interesting observations about coincidence that are worth considering as well. For instance, consider that there are currently about 7 billion peeps alive as we speak. So now, let's think of some sort of hypothetical improbable event. Let's say that it's a one-in-a-billion chance that during the course of any one given day a person's left eye can spontaneously change color. Because there are so many peeps, we could expect that to happen 7 times a day, to someone somewhere in the world, despite that the odds against it are a billion-to-one. Generally speaking, one side of our brain divides thoughts, emotions and perceptions up based on distinctions, and the other side integrates these and recognizes patterns in what is integrated. The pattern recognition function is so good, in fact, that we often see patterns where none exist, like in shapes of clouds or patterns of stars or on symmetrical ink blots. But for peeps that leave things to lie there they're missing what can be a really fun opportunity. ... and all they have to do is keep an open mind and an attentive eye.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 22:14:43 GMT -5
I've always been fascinated by coincidences. There is always a statistical possibility of a coincidence happening yet the mind can interpret it as having some kind of mystical significance. Who knows. The other interesting experience is deja vu. Yea deja vu. On the coincidence level, Yadira is sitting next to me in the bed and recognized your symbol in the icon just now as the same symbol from the painting on our wall, hehe.
On the level of meaning, I spose the meaning of a coincidence is whatever the individuals chooses to supply it with. When there's personal unconsciousness involved the meaning will almost inevitably be in furtherance of the avoidance of unconsciousness or in some sort of self seeking loop. I spose in the more highly conscious it may just lead to a heightened enjoyment of the moment or appreciation for life and being alive. Jed McKenna talks about making micro adjustments to the trajectory and things like that and synchronicity or 'signs' can be a part of that interplay.
Did you see my reply to sdp about the use of the the word conscious as in more conscious less conscious or even unconscious. Enigma uses it too. Now you introduce the phrase, personal unconsciousness. I can't get my head around that. Do you regard sleep as an unconscious state? If so then how can the unconscious be personal if there is no persona to experience anything. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 23, 2016 22:31:11 GMT -5
What would the universe wake up to, that it is an idea ? Sincere question. I was saying the idea was that the universe wants to wake up. Not that the universe wakes up to an idea. I think he's suggesting that a universe that wants to wake up is being personified. |
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Post by preciocho on Aug 23, 2016 22:42:06 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure what you mean on ascribing causality to an abstract whole. Obviously, the idea of oneness is not what oneness is pointing to. The experience of oneness is not the experience of a separate person at the center of an impossible to divide whole universe. The loss of consciousness or the gaining of identification comes through rejection of personal experience, which is a rejection of the universe relative to the person, or vice versa. These personal rejections aren't random, but perfectly ordered. Synchronicity reveals that perfect order in a personally meaningful way (or universally, depends on how you look at it). The source of the person's perception is not the person, and the idea one is separate from that source isn't true.
Right you see the intellect can fool itself and settle for an understanding of the distinction between the oneness and the idea of oneness when it turns out that's actually some very deep water. It's essentially the same dynamic that you were writing about here and here for instance. And it can happen with any pointer. If we take that order you refer to for instance, this is something that really has to be felt and yes the synchs can be a part of that. There's other facets to this aspect of what feels like integration that involve perceiving this beautiful constant movement that sustains us as essentially loving and benevolent, and that even in face of some of it's less than lovely and perhaps even more malignant aspects. A good rule of thumb for likely unconscious compartmentalization would be objections to ideas like "God's Love", even as the intellect has accepted and adopted the notion of an ordered Universe. And I'll even go one step further and say the intellect can fool itself into believing that a oneness experience is possible on the personal level. Things like Samadhi and cosmic consciousness experiences can be amazingly blissful and even transformative, but there is still that which transcends experience and the person having such experiences isn't that.
Same, obviously, holds true for synchronicity. I mentioned an experience of having a vision of a house and then finding it. This caused a radical shift in the identification complex, and in many ways, I view this shift as life saving, even though the belief structures surrounding the sequence brought to the surface compartmentalized energy which had up to that point been unconscious.
I have a distaste for the God is Love stuff also, but I think it was Maharshi who said the desire for life is as natural as it gets. In this sense consciousness of the dynamics of belief formulation and seeking to avoid unconsciousness and maintain integrity to belief structure really can save a life. Most folks don't have wacky house visions but rather believe in the idea that they are not what they appear to be. 10 or 20 years of believing in that just may (and likely will) bring about a situation where the integrity of that belief is called into question. It's at that point when consciousness of how one got into such a mess (information) becomes desirable and the ability to allow expression of energy holding beliefs intact can be let go.
Which ironically, would have the tendency of improving the situation, personally speaking.
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Post by preciocho on Aug 23, 2016 22:54:45 GMT -5
Yea deja vu. On the coincidence level, Yadira is sitting next to me in the bed and recognized your symbol in the icon just now as the same symbol from the painting on our wall, hehe.
On the level of meaning, I spose the meaning of a coincidence is whatever the individuals chooses to supply it with. When there's personal unconsciousness involved the meaning will almost inevitably be in furtherance of the avoidance of unconsciousness or in some sort of self seeking loop. I spose in the more highly conscious it may just lead to a heightened enjoyment of the moment or appreciation for life and being alive. Jed McKenna talks about making micro adjustments to the trajectory and things like that and synchronicity or 'signs' can be a part of that interplay.
Yes, that's about the simple size of it at the practical level -- without going into all those cool details under the hood -- and the left brainiacs have some interesting observations about coincidence that are worth considering as well. For instance, consider that there are currently about 7 billion peeps alive as we speak. So now, let's think of some sort of hypothetical improbable event. Let's say that it's a one-in-a-billion chance that during the course of any one given day a person's left eye can spontaneously change color. Because there are so many peeps, we could expect that to happen 7 times a day, to someone somewhere in the world, despite that the odds against it are a billion-to-one. Generally speaking, one side of our brain divides thoughts, emotions and perceptions up based on distinctions, and the other side integrates these and recognizes patterns in what is integrated. The pattern recognition function is so good, in fact, that we often see patterns where none exist, like in shapes of clouds or patterns of stars or on symmetrical ink blots. But for peeps that leave things to lie there they're missing what can be a really fun opportunity. ... and all they have to do is keep an open mind and an attentive eye. I never had much interest in the statistical side of synchronicity but Jung did some experiments on ESP and coincidence and found flux variations that repeated that he couldn't explain (or acknowledged the need for a new dimension to logically connect the dots). My attention was drawn to the subject in the differentiation between light and dark forces, in order to take a more honest look at not just my life situation but certain trajectories and the possibility for unconscious (spirit) influence.
Along that line, we can in essence be mind controlled (to whatever degree we are unconscious) into seeing coincidence where there isn't any. There's a lot of bogus psychics out there that make quite a living off this practice.
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Post by laughter on Aug 23, 2016 22:56:01 GMT -5
Right you see the intellect can fool itself and settle for an understanding of the distinction between the oneness and the idea of oneness when it turns out that's actually some very deep water. It's essentially the same dynamic that you were writing about here and here for instance. And it can happen with any pointer. If we take that order you refer to for instance, this is something that really has to be felt and yes the synchs can be a part of that. There's other facets to this aspect of what feels like integration that involve perceiving this beautiful constant movement that sustains us as essentially loving and benevolent, and that even in face of some of it's less than lovely and perhaps even more malignant aspects. A good rule of thumb for likely unconscious compartmentalization would be objections to ideas like "God's Love", even as the intellect has accepted and adopted the notion of an ordered Universe. And I'll even go one step further and say the intellect can fool itself into believing that a oneness experience is possible on the personal level. Things like Samadhi and cosmic consciousness experiences can be amazingly blissful and even transformative, but there is still that which transcends experience and the person having such experiences isn't that.
Same, obviously, holds true for synchronicity. I mentioned an experience of having a vision of a house and then finding it. This caused a radical shift in the identification complex, and in many ways, I view this shift as life saving, even though the belief structures surrounding the sequence brought to the surface compartmentalized energy which had up to that point been unconscious.
I have a distaste for the God is Love stuff also, but I think it was Maharshi who said the desire for life is as natural as it gets. In this sense consciousness of the dynamics of belief formulation and seeking to avoid unconsciousness and maintain integrity to belief structure really can save a life. Most folks don't have wacky house visions but rather believe in the idea that they are not what they appear to be. 10 or 20 years of believing in that just may (and likely will) bring about a situation where the integrity of that belief is called into question. It's at that point when consciousness of how one got into such a mess (information) becomes desirable and the ability to allow expression of energy holding beliefs intact can be let go.
Which ironically, would have the tendency of improving the situation, personally speaking.
Yes, that's a funny irony for sure. What I was going through when we first started corresponding those years ago was a cycle where I'd embrace those personal improvements and mistook them as benefits of a process, which, just as ironically, will inevitably result in a cycle of unconsciousness and suffering. But if one is alert and cognizant of what is happening with their thoughts and their emotions as this is unfolding, the suffering serves the same purpose as a rumble strip on the side of a road. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 23, 2016 22:57:34 GMT -5
Yes, that's about the simple size of it at the practical level -- without going into all those cool details under the hood -- and the left brainiacs have some interesting observations about coincidence that are worth considering as well. For instance, consider that there are currently about 7 billion peeps alive as we speak. So now, let's think of some sort of hypothetical improbable event. Let's say that it's a one-in-a-billion chance that during the course of any one given day a person's left eye can spontaneously change color. Because there are so many peeps, we could expect that to happen 7 times a day, to someone somewhere in the world, despite that the odds against it are a billion-to-one. Generally speaking, one side of our brain divides thoughts, emotions and perceptions up based on distinctions, and the other side integrates these and recognizes patterns in what is integrated. The pattern recognition function is so good, in fact, that we often see patterns where none exist, like in shapes of clouds or patterns of stars or on symmetrical ink blots. But for peeps that leave things to lie there they're missing what can be a really fun opportunity. ... and all they have to do is keep an open mind and an attentive eye. I never had much interest in the statistical side of synchronicity but Jung did some experiments on ESP and coincidence and found flux variations that repeated that he couldn't explain (or acknowledged the need for a new dimension to logically connect the dots). My attention was drawn to the subject in the differentiation between light and dark forces, in order to take a more honest look at not just my life situation but certain trajectories and the possibility for unconscious (spirit) influence.
Along that line, we can in essence be mind controlled (to whatever degree we are unconscious) into seeing coincidence where there isn't any. There's a lot of bogus psychics out there that make quite a living off this practice.
yikes, sounds like nasty stuff.  .. yeah I didn't think you'd be all that interested in the stats, I just wanted to give you an idea of the left-brainy take on synchs. |
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Post by preciocho on Aug 23, 2016 23:04:50 GMT -5
Yea deja vu. On the coincidence level, Yadira is sitting next to me in the bed and recognized your symbol in the icon just now as the same symbol from the painting on our wall, hehe.
On the level of meaning, I spose the meaning of a coincidence is whatever the individuals chooses to supply it with. When there's personal unconsciousness involved the meaning will almost inevitably be in furtherance of the avoidance of unconsciousness or in some sort of self seeking loop. I spose in the more highly conscious it may just lead to a heightened enjoyment of the moment or appreciation for life and being alive. Jed McKenna talks about making micro adjustments to the trajectory and things like that and synchronicity or 'signs' can be a part of that interplay.
Did you see my reply to sdp about the use of the the word conscious as in more conscious less conscious or even unconscious. Enigma uses it too. Now you introduce the phrase, personal unconsciousness. I can't get my head around that. Do you regard sleep as an unconscious state? If so then how can the unconscious be personal if there is no persona to experience anything. I don't mean unconscious as in not being awake or in bed sleeping. Although I would say in deep sleep there is no personal consciousness. I wouldn't, then say, the person was unconscious during deep sleep, but there was no consciousness of personal thoughts or dreams during that time.
You ask how can the unconscious be personal if there is no person to experience anything. That question really cuts to the heart of the matter. Everything appears to that which does not. Thinking and emotion (mind/body) are one such appearance. Emotion literally means energy in motion. When the motion is redirected to block sadness or pain, the sadness or pain is unconscious and the experiences associated with that energy are not available for conscious recall. So, it's personally unconscious stuff.
The creation of the dynamic mind makes personal unconsciousness a possibility.
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Post by preciocho on Aug 23, 2016 23:10:39 GMT -5
I was saying the idea was that the universe wants to wake up. Not that the universe wakes up to an idea. I think he's suggesting that a universe that wants to wake up is being personified. I don't think so, but maybe you're right. First, I never meant to imply full agreement with Adya's comment. Being unconscious leads to emotional degradation. The tendency for the integrity of belief to be called into question, particularly when formulated unconsciously, makes waking up seem like a good idea, even if not a desirable one. I don't mind saying this is a design of a non intellectual intelligence, and how consciousness of the design allows awakening to transpire. But to say the universe wants to wake up is the same as saying it wants to fall asleep and kill millions of people. That tends to not sit well with the bereaved.
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Post by preciocho on Aug 23, 2016 23:18:23 GMT -5
And I'll even go one step further and say the intellect can fool itself into believing that a oneness experience is possible on the personal level. Things like Samadhi and cosmic consciousness experiences can be amazingly blissful and even transformative, but there is still that which transcends experience and the person having such experiences isn't that.
Same, obviously, holds true for synchronicity. I mentioned an experience of having a vision of a house and then finding it. This caused a radical shift in the identification complex, and in many ways, I view this shift as life saving, even though the belief structures surrounding the sequence brought to the surface compartmentalized energy which had up to that point been unconscious.
I have a distaste for the God is Love stuff also, but I think it was Maharshi who said the desire for life is as natural as it gets. In this sense consciousness of the dynamics of belief formulation and seeking to avoid unconsciousness and maintain integrity to belief structure really can save a life. Most folks don't have wacky house visions but rather believe in the idea that they are not what they appear to be. 10 or 20 years of believing in that just may (and likely will) bring about a situation where the integrity of that belief is called into question. It's at that point when consciousness of how one got into such a mess (information) becomes desirable and the ability to allow expression of energy holding beliefs intact can be let go.
Which ironically, would have the tendency of improving the situation, personally speaking.
Yes, that's a funny irony for sure. What I was going through when we first started corresponding those years ago was a cycle where I'd embrace those personal improvements and mistook them as benefits of a process, which, just as ironically, will inevitably result in a cycle of unconsciousness and suffering. But if one is alert and cognizant of what is happening with their thoughts and their emotions as this is unfolding, the suffering serves the same purpose as a rumble strip on the side of a road. Yea we could call that the identification co-opting or something. The present moment is used as a Launchpad to project an image of self through in order to avoid the still personally unconscious. When future doesn't line up with that image (it never will because it's grounded in a rejection causing the need for a compensation which is logically impossible), the cognitive dissonance can bring consciousness of the energy responsible for the seeking loop in the first place. |
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Post by preciocho on Aug 23, 2016 23:25:24 GMT -5
I never had much interest in the statistical side of synchronicity but Jung did some experiments on ESP and coincidence and found flux variations that repeated that he couldn't explain (or acknowledged the need for a new dimension to logically connect the dots). My attention was drawn to the subject in the differentiation between light and dark forces, in order to take a more honest look at not just my life situation but certain trajectories and the possibility for unconscious (spirit) influence.
Along that line, we can in essence be mind controlled (to whatever degree we are unconscious) into seeing coincidence where there isn't any. There's a lot of bogus psychics out there that make quite a living off this practice.
yikes, sounds like nasty stuff. .. yeah I didn't think you'd be all that interested in the stats, I just wanted to give you an idea of the left-brainy take on synchs. Well yah I'm just saying if people aren't studying synchronicity within the context of their experience, I don't really know what the point is apart from wanting to avoid their lives hehe. Although that underlying desire may be why the experience of synchronicity happens less for some folks, or some might say, is 'missed' by the mind because it's too busy thinking about solving world hunger or the woman in 4B. Based on the math someone in the process of becoming more unconscious or compartmentalized is obviously going to miss how mathematically perfect their compartmentalization dynamics are haha. |
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-- and the left brainiacs have some interesting observations about coincidence that are worth considering as well.
.. yeah I didn't think you'd be all that interested in the stats, I just wanted to give you an idea of the left-brainy take on synchs.