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Post by zin on Mar 13, 2015 6:36:35 GMT -5
Second thing... It looks like there is an axis (vertical) in a person and what I had thought as particularization revolves (and sometimes freezes) around it, but it (p.) is not the thing I thought it was (ie, not a 'some properties branched out from the axis' type of thing). I remember how I was when I was ten, twenty, etc and it almost always felt like a 'stranger'.. P. more looks like just a thick obscurity cloud, it's not even "properties acquired from the environment". ...The curious thing is how different one feels when one comes across influences which provide some 'breath'. Another thing is, I can't make much 'plans' with this kind of obscurity.. (I'm not saying that I can't plan when to go visit my parents, etc). Lastly, I don't wish to think about the 'axis' at all!
(all are half ideas.. this kind of thing may be obvious for people who had some realizations, I don't have any.)
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Post by laughter on Mar 13, 2015 11:50:46 GMT -5
Second thing... It looks like there is an axis (vertical) in a person and what I had thought as particularization revolves (and sometimes freezes) around it, but it (p.) is not the thing I thought it was (ie, not a 'some properties branched out from the axis' type of thing). I remember how I was when I was ten, twenty, etc and it almost always felt like a 'stranger'.. P. more looks like just a thick obscurity cloud, it's not even "properties acquired from the environment". ...The curious thing is how different one feels when one comes across influences which provide some 'breath'. Another thing is, I can't make much 'plans' with this kind of obscurity.. (I'm not saying that I can't plan when to go visit my parents, etc). Lastly, I don't wish to think about the 'axis' at all! (all are half ideas.. this kind of thing may be obvious for people who had some realizations, I don't have any.) The talk about "realization" can get abstract and abstruse, but generally speaking, the most important "realization" isn't one that you don't already have access to right now. It's not something that you don't already know. It's nothing special, it's just the very simple ground of your being you can feel with one good deep breath. Instead of thinking about particularization when the question comes up you can instead turn to this feeling, this ground, and sort of center yourself on it. So no, you don't have to think about the axis. It's not that thinking about it is harmful or wrong, it's just that it's not going to reveal anything that standing still in that moment won't ultimately demonstrate. This is counter-intuitive, and that's what the point that meditative practice can eventually inform mind is all about. So when you say those past selves feel like a stranger, do you mean that you feel as though you were someone different then than now? I'm not sure I understand the obscurity cloud, would you like to explain it in a little more depth? For me particularization never used to obscure, it used to sharpen and focus.
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Post by zin on Mar 13, 2015 12:21:29 GMT -5
Second thing... It looks like there is an axis (vertical) in a person and what I had thought as particularization revolves (and sometimes freezes) around it, but it (p.) is not the thing I thought it was (ie, not a 'some properties branched out from the axis' type of thing). I remember how I was when I was ten, twenty, etc and it almost always felt like a 'stranger'.. P. more looks like just a thick obscurity cloud, it's not even "properties acquired from the environment". ...The curious thing is how different one feels when one comes across influences which provide some 'breath'. Another thing is, I can't make much 'plans' with this kind of obscurity.. (I'm not saying that I can't plan when to go visit my parents, etc). Lastly, I don't wish to think about the 'axis' at all! (all are half ideas.. this kind of thing may be obvious for people who had some realizations, I don't have any.) The talk about "realization" can get abstract and abstruse, but generally speaking, the most important "realization" isn't one that you don't already have access to right now. It's not something that you don't already know. It's nothing special, it's just the very simple ground of your being you can feel with one good deep breath. Instead of thinking about particularization when the question comes up you can instead turn to this feeling, this ground, and sort of center yourself on it. So no, you don't have to think about the axis. It's not that thinking about it is harmful or wrong, it's just that it's not going to reveal anything that standing still in that moment won't ultimately demonstrate. This is counter-intuitive, and that's what the point that meditative practice can eventually inform mind is all about. So when you say those past selves feel like a stranger, do you mean that you feel as though you were someone different then than now? I'm not sure I understand the obscurity cloud, would you like to explain it in a little more depth? For me particularization never used to obscure, it used to sharpen and focus. About past selves, I was like a stranger both when the time of living those ages and then they also feel like strangers to me *now*. What I like (ie walking) does not change but the feeling of "self" changes.. that is strange, I am not the me that I was five years ago. It was almost like there was no "nature" (trees etc) was there in those years.. there was, but I didn't feel them. Hence I say 'me' is an obscure/obscuring cloud. Maybe obscure is not right word, just something like a thick cloud which obscures the outside world. The curious thing is I was thinking of p. like how you describe, focus and some abilities.. I don't know why this changed. But then it is also like if that cloud disappears I will be a completely neutral creature, with *no* distinct properties.. So there is not much of me either way.. Maybe it is like the mountains thing (something Reefs said with a video on the other thread). I am not sure. Maybe tomorrow it will look different. Btw thanks for the things about 'realization'.
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Post by laughter on Mar 13, 2015 13:46:12 GMT -5
The talk about "realization" can get abstract and abstruse, but generally speaking, the most important "realization" isn't one that you don't already have access to right now. It's not something that you don't already know. It's nothing special, it's just the very simple ground of your being you can feel with one good deep breath. Instead of thinking about particularization when the question comes up you can instead turn to this feeling, this ground, and sort of center yourself on it. So no, you don't have to think about the axis. It's not that thinking about it is harmful or wrong, it's just that it's not going to reveal anything that standing still in that moment won't ultimately demonstrate. This is counter-intuitive, and that's what the point that meditative practice can eventually inform mind is all about. So when you say those past selves feel like a stranger, do you mean that you feel as though you were someone different then than now? I'm not sure I understand the obscurity cloud, would you like to explain it in a little more depth? For me particularization never used to obscure, it used to sharpen and focus. About past selves, I was like a stranger both when the time of living those ages and then they also feel like strangers to me *now*. What I like (ie walking) does not change but the feeling of "self" changes.. that is strange, I am not the me that I was five years ago. It was almost like there was no "nature" (trees etc) was there in those years.. there was, but I didn't feel them. Hence I say 'me' is an obscure/obscuring cloud. Maybe obscure is not right word, just something like a thick cloud which obscures the outside world. The curious thing is I was thinking of p. like how you describe, focus and some abilities.. I don't know why this changed. But then it is also like if that cloud disappears I will be a completely neutral creature, with *no* distinct properties.. So there is not much of me either way.. Maybe it is like the mountains thing (something Reefs said with a video on the other thread). I am not sure. Maybe tomorrow it will look different. Btw thanks for the things about 'realization'. Characteristics of what you were 5 years ago have changed between then and now for sure, but is there anything in common that you can sense? Anything that you feel didn't change?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 15:02:58 GMT -5
Second thing... It looks like there is an axis (vertical) in a person and what I had thought as particularization revolves (and sometimes freezes) around it, but it (p.) is not the thing I thought it was (ie, not a 'some properties branched out from the axis' type of thing). I remember how I was when I was ten, twenty, etc and it almost always felt like a 'stranger'.. P. more looks like just a thick obscurity cloud, it's not even "properties acquired from the environment". ...The curious thing is how different one feels when one comes across influences which provide some 'breath'. Another thing is, I can't make much 'plans' with this kind of obscurity.. (I'm not saying that I can't plan when to go visit my parents, etc). Lastly, I don't wish to think about the 'axis' at all! (all are half ideas.. this kind of thing may be obvious for people who had some realizations, I don't have any.) The talk about "realization" can get abstract and abstruse, but generally speaking, the most important "realization" isn't one that you don't already have access to right now. It's not something that you don't already know. It's nothing special, it's just the very simple ground of your being you can feel with one good deep breath.
Instead of thinking about particularization when the question comes up you can instead turn to this feeling, this ground, and sort of center yourself on it. So no, you don't have to think about the axis. It's not that thinking about it is harmful or wrong, it's just that it's not going to reveal anything that standing still in that moment won't ultimately demonstrate. This is counter-intuitive, and that's what the point that meditative practice can eventually inform mind is all about. So when you say those past selves feel like a stranger, do you mean that you feel as though you were someone different then than now? I'm not sure I understand the obscurity cloud, would you like to explain it in a little more depth? For me particularization never used to obscure, it used to sharpen and focus. Four in succession is more unmissable.
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Post by laughter on Mar 13, 2015 15:11:52 GMT -5
The talk about "realization" can get abstract and abstruse, but generally speaking, the most important "realization" isn't one that you don't already have access to right now. It's not something that you don't already know. It's nothing special, it's just the very simple ground of your being you can feel with one good deep breath.
Instead of thinking about particularization when the question comes up you can instead turn to this feeling, this ground, and sort of center yourself on it. So no, you don't have to think about the axis. It's not that thinking about it is harmful or wrong, it's just that it's not going to reveal anything that standing still in that moment won't ultimately demonstrate. This is counter-intuitive, and that's what the point that meditative practice can eventually inform mind is all about. So when you say those past selves feel like a stranger, do you mean that you feel as though you were someone different then than now? I'm not sure I understand the obscurity cloud, would you like to explain it in a little more depth? For me particularization never used to obscure, it used to sharpen and focus. Four in succession is more unmissable. as is an indefinite phased-locked loop truly free of thought but those breaths tend to be not too deep, not too shallow, and the sense of time having passed is only after the fact. More is often better but never necessary!
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Post by zin on Mar 14, 2015 18:30:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure about what nonduality is saying, I myself am not saying "The universe or the earth or whatever needed a "Hitler" so Hitler was manifested." ...But "everything anyone does is a manifestation of the Whole" does not mean "the universe needed a Hitler" to me.. may think about this later... Ask yourself, whether the Universe needing anything, is nothing more than a mind-made conclusion. I thought about this... Yes I think to say "universe needed" is a mind-made thing. But one does wonder, why the 'unfairness' in bad events. The only answer for me is, the lowest thing determines the general events.. Everything is given a chance to manifest.. if more and more people consent to it, then... But what about the innocents? that part is a matter of belief I think.
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Post by zin on Mar 14, 2015 18:39:56 GMT -5
About past selves, I was like a stranger both when the time of living those ages and then they also feel like strangers to me *now*. What I like (ie walking) does not change but the feeling of "self" changes.. that is strange, I am not the me that I was five years ago. It was almost like there was no "nature" (trees etc) was there in those years.. there was, but I didn't feel them. Hence I say 'me' is an obscure/obscuring cloud. Maybe obscure is not right word, just something like a thick cloud which obscures the outside world. (...) Characteristics of what you were 5 years ago have changed between then and now for sure, but is there anything in common that you can sense? Anything that you feel didn't change? Curious, what came up when I thought about it is, I get mushy about the same things.. By this I don't mean sticky sentimentality, I mean for example I find some kind of dedication to principals, values important.. But I know this falls under the "thoughts, emotions, etc" umbrella..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 19:03:58 GMT -5
Ask yourself, whether the Universe needing anything, is nothing more than a mind-made conclusion. I thought about this... Yes I think to say "universe needed" is a mind-made thing. But one does wonder, why the 'unfairness' in bad events. The only answer for me is, the lowest thing determines the general events.. Everything is given a chance to manifest.. if more and more people consent to it, then... But what about the innocents? that part is a matter of belief I think. Yeah it doesn't make sense to say that the Universe needs anything. What's happening in galaxies far, far, away are just what's happening. We can't know what is happening in such unimaginable places though we can all agree that they are also inclusive of, what we call the Universe.. yeah? So if we fact it up a little and say that this human species is what is carrying out the bad and unfair events that we speak of, and have shown to us through tv, movies, media and literature. Then it makes impressionable sense that all combinations of events are given a chance to manifest in such a diverse species, yeah? Though through these, we can start to appreciate the land of duality. The grand world of contrast. And the 'emotional spectrum,' available to us through such turns in human history. Though to get too drawn in, such that, the very view of our own garden is led astray, may also be viewed as the perpetuation of a consent of it, and a crime against our own innocence.
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Post by zin on Mar 14, 2015 19:16:37 GMT -5
I thought about this... Yes I think to say "universe needed" is a mind-made thing. But one does wonder, why the 'unfairness' in bad events. The only answer for me is, the lowest thing determines the general events.. Everything is given a chance to manifest.. if more and more people consent to it, then... But what about the innocents? that part is a matter of belief I think. Yeah it doesn't make sense to say that the Universe needs anything. What's happening in galaxies far, far, away are just what's happening. We can't know what is happening in such unimaginable places though we can all agree that they are also inclusive of, what we call the Universe.. yeah? So if we fact it up a little and say that this human species is what is carrying out the bad and unfair events that we speak of, and have shown to us through tv, movies, media and literature. Then it makes impressionable sense that all combinations of events are given a chance to manifest in such a diverse species, yeah? Though through these, we can start to appreciate the land of duality. The grand world of contrast. And the 'emotional spectrum,' available to us through such turns in human history. Though to get too drawn in, such that, the very view of our own garden is led astray, may also be viewed as the perpetuation of a consent of it, and a crime against our own innocence. I agree with first two paragraphs.. About the third, I wish to write later about "the 'emotional spectrum,' available to us" and "through such turns in human history".. (I like to think loosely).. Your last sentence, did you mean to say, by thinking these things too much one may forget to appreciate our garden? If so, yes, I agree with that too. ps. I was trying to post a pic in another thread but it looks too small.. I will give up I guess..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 19:38:50 GMT -5
Yeah it doesn't make sense to say that the Universe needs anything. What's happening in galaxies far, far, away are just what's happening. We can't know what is happening in such unimaginable places though we can all agree that they are also inclusive of, what we call the Universe.. yeah? So if we fact it up a little and say that this human species is what is carrying out the bad and unfair events that we speak of, and have shown to us through tv, movies, media and literature. Then it makes impressionable sense that all combinations of events are given a chance to manifest in such a diverse species, yeah? Though through these, we can start to appreciate the land of duality. The grand world of contrast. And the 'emotional spectrum,' available to us through such turns in human history. Though to get too drawn in, such that, the very view of our own garden is led astray, may also be viewed as the perpetuation of a consent of it, and a crime against our own innocence. I agree with first two paragraphs.. About the third, I wish to write later about "the 'emotional spectrum,' available to us" and "through such turns in human history".. (I like to think loosely).. Your last sentence, did you mean to say, by thinking these things too much one may forget to appreciate our garden? If so, yes, I agree with that too. ps. I was trying to post a pic in another thread but it looks too small.. I will give up I guess.. Cool. Yeah, there isn't anything that anyone can do about World War II. And from what I understand it probably stopped quite a battle between the US and Britain that was being maneuvered into at the time. So yeah, thinking events through that are long since past, and acknowledging that that is how it has all unfolded is the sane option. There are scars in all cultures that everyone can perpetuate or put to rest in their individual way. Paying attention to what's growing well around you. And cutting back or digging out what no longer serves you, is how best to honour the deaths of those innocents. To the p.s. ok
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Post by laughter on Mar 14, 2015 19:59:23 GMT -5
Characteristics of what you were 5 years ago have changed between then and now for sure, but is there anything in common that you can sense? Anything that you feel didn't change? Curious, what came up when I thought about it is, I get mushy about the same things.. By this I don't mean sticky sentimentality, I mean for example I find some kind of dedication to principals, values important.. But I know this falls under the "thoughts, emotions, etc" umbrella.. Yes, that stuff is all form that could've changed but didn't. You'll wake up tomorrow a day older and you can think then, is what is waking up today what went to bed last night? You can think about what's different and that will always amount to some set of qualities of one appearance or another, but the suggested inquiry isn't about that. The inquiry is about what's self-evident during meditation.
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Post by zin on Mar 18, 2015 17:06:45 GMT -5
Curious, what came up when I thought about it is, I get mushy about the same things.. By this I don't mean sticky sentimentality, I mean for example I find some kind of dedication to principals, values important.. But I know this falls under the "thoughts, emotions, etc" umbrella.. Yes, that stuff is all form that could've changed but didn't. You'll wake up tomorrow a day older and you can think then, is what is waking up today what went to bed last night? You can think about what's different and that will always amount to some set of qualities of one appearance or another, but the suggested inquiry isn't about that. The inquiry is about what's self-evident during meditation. Today I remembered 'to meditate' at the seaside. I had only about 7-8 minutes but did it anyway. Just in front of 'sunlight shining on the sea' view, my eyes were not totally closed. And then something came into my mind from more than ten years ago: "on inhale think 'united with all'; on exhale, 'toward the One'."... (it's from H.I.Khan, I had read it at the Sufi list from an experienced member).. (I did that a bit, then dropped it, and soon the time ended). This might not sound as 'meditation' at all but I've never understood what people were saying as 'things coming up' when they sit, it was astonishing... Also later in the day some related coincidences... I had so much wanted to be a part of such a tradition but the same thing (that happened with the meditation lady) had happened.. namely, I went to see a related person and did not go again, again the biiig resistance. After those days I thought about these things (indirectly) during maybe three or four thousand walks... ...Btw yes I still didn't come to "The inquiry is about what's self-evident during meditation" part, I mean in 'real life'.. But it's related to identity & reality at least (sigh!). (that was just a note, no comment expected).
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Post by laughter on Mar 18, 2015 17:18:17 GMT -5
Yes, that stuff is all form that could've changed but didn't. You'll wake up tomorrow a day older and you can think then, is what is waking up today what went to bed last night? You can think about what's different and that will always amount to some set of qualities of one appearance or another, but the suggested inquiry isn't about that. The inquiry is about what's self-evident during meditation. Today I remembered 'to meditate' at the seaside. I had only about 7-8 minutes but did it anyway. Just in front of 'sunlight shining on the sea' view, my eyes were not totally closed. And then something came into my mind from more than ten years ago: "on inhale think 'united with all'; on exhale, 'toward the One'."... (it's from H.I.Khan, I had read it at the Sufi list from an experienced member).. (I did that a bit, then dropped it, and soon the time ended). This might not sound as 'meditation' at all but I've never understood what people were saying as 'things coming up' when they sit, it was astonishing... Also later in the day some related coincidences... I had so much wanted to be a part of such a tradition but the same thing (that happened with the meditation lady) had happened.. namely, I went to see a related person and did not go again, again the biiig resistance. After those days I thought about these things (indirectly) during maybe three or four thousand walks... ...Btw yes I still didn't come to "The inquiry is about what's self-evident during meditation" part, I mean in 'real life'.. But it's related to identity & reality at least (sigh!). (that was just a note, no comment expected). (** smile **)
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Post by laughter on Mar 18, 2015 17:51:22 GMT -5
(that was just a note, no comment expected). How about some gratitude though? ... it was very very nice to read zindy, so ... thanks. I've found over the past five years that expressing the results of meditation to others is an integral part of what the evil frog calls the informing of mind. I've never read Jed McKenna but Maxy and wren have, and maxy's mentioned that Jed recommends something along the lines of "spiritual autolysis" ... so even when there aren't any specific comments on our journal entries, just the fact of them is part of this process.
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