sharing

[zendancer]

Karen: I just now spotted your last post on this thread, and it illustrates precisely what I was trying to explain earlier about jet pilots who practice emergency procedures. They train their bodies to respond instantly when, and if, something unexpected happens. There is no time for linear thought, logic, or creativity. There is simply........flip the switches, drop the flaps, pull the stick, push the pedals, etc. The body knows what to do because it has been experientially trained.

And yes, that is a perfect analogy for how informal meditation (non-conceptual awareness practice) functions. By silently looking and listening rather than fantasizing or reflecting we change our habits of mind and live more consciously in the here and now. After breaking the habit of incessant thought, we are amazed to discover that 95% of our past thinking was unnecessary.

I often hear people say things like, "Every time I think about what happened I get angry!" Well, if it makes them angry every time they think about it, it's probably time for them to stop thinking about it. LOL.

Or, people will say, "I expected such and such to happen, and I'm so disappointed that it didn't." Well, that's the way reality is; many times things don;t happen the way we expect them to. If we stay focused on reality and don't get attached to our thoughts, then it is much easier to go with the flow. As Byron Katie says, "If you fight with reality, you will always lose."

Then, there are the mental habits of comparing and second-guessing. "How do I look compared to Richard Gere or Julia Roberts? Am I too fat or too skinny? Am I earning as much money as my peers? Does my lifestyle or possessions measure up? Am I getting ahead or falling behind? Am I as happy as I think I should be?" Sometimes we spend more time judging ourselves than we do judging others. These types of questions and issues are nothing more than a bad habit. It is possible to break that habit and become both autonomous and free. The more we focus upon reality the more unified we become. The more we focus upon reality the more we let go of our imaginary agendas and discover our true agenda (which isn't determined by us).

Byron Katie sums it up like this: "I'm open to all that the mind brings, all that life brings. I have questioned my thinking, and I've discovered that it doesn't mean a thing. I shine internally with the joy of understanding. I know about suffering, and I know about joy, and I know who I am. Who I am is who you are, even before you have realized it. When there's no story, no past or future, nothing to worry about, nothing to do, nowhere to go, no one to be, it's all good."

[astenny]

For the first post that started this thread: We can say what if until the cows come home, but eventually we have to actually do something. More than that, by not posting or taking some action we deny the world an idea that is (at least) unique to us and as someone else said it caries our unique flavor. But, to follow the what if, what if you just happened to say it at just the right time to just the right person. From there who knows what could happen. One candle lights another, and one single candle can light many more.

As for the emergency reaction, I agree. I work with the developmentally disabled, and I have been in situations where I automatically did what needed to be done. We train ourselves on the proper way to do things, or on the "right way", and when the crucial moment comes we do the "right" thing without even thinking about it. That applies to emergency situations, whether they be physical or spiritual. (And thank you, this sparked a train of thought that I needed right now.)

[karen]

Oct 21, 2009 10:03:04 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I often hear people say things like, "Every time I think about what happened I get angry!" Well, if it makes them angry every time they think about it, it's probably time for them to stop thinking about it. LOL.

Hi ZD.

Thanks for your comments. I'd like to take the above snip in another direction.

With me, I use to obsessively think about everything that went wrong that day plus all the "worst of the worst" high-lite recaps of the last several years. This was my nightly experience about every other night. This all started getting unbearable in 6th grade, but I had no clue what was going on nor any context by which it would have even occurred to me to ask for help.

By year 37 I had a shift of at least intellectually getting me into looking inward with the reasoning I adopted: insanity is repeating the same actions over and over and expecting different results. That mere sentence got me through a lot.

But I had a lot of baggage to let go. Religious BS, John Birch style right-wing libertarian dogma, and even spiritual beliefs. Why bother with beliefs at all (unless it is a belief in some mechanical action or something like that)?

Anyway, back on track: I'd often, through these 3 years, "get stuck" back in the old pain. I finally figured out what was going on. I would look back to the memory to "see if it's still there" and thereby proving or disproving the efficacy of my current efforts.

"Whoops, looks like you loose again chump!"

But in reality, I was simply looking back to the memory, and all those pathways fire up (to what was obviously so damned important that I had to spent so many hour running the groove in deep) the seemingly exact same simulation.

So it seems that while one may not ever be held captive by indelible wounds. It may certainly seems like it if you fall for the ol' rope-a-dope like I've been doing.

[karen]

Thanks astenny.

[souley]

Oct 22, 2009 0:29:47 GMT -5 karen said:

Anyway, back on track: I'd often, through these 3 years, "get stuck" back in the old pain. I finally figured out what was going on. I would look back to the memory to "see if it's still there" and thereby proving or disproving the efficacy of my current efforts.

"Whoops, looks like you loose again chump!"

But in reality, I was simply looking back to the memory, and all those pathways fire up (to what was obviously so d**ned important that I had to spent so many hour running the groove in deep) the seemingly exact same simulation.

So it seems that while one may not ever be held captive by indelible wounds. It may certainly seems like it if you fall for the ol' rope-a-dope like I've been doing.

It is the same for me. "Maybe now I'm clear enough to go back to old habits and not be bothered by them". But the question itself comes from the same resistancepattern as the old habits. I find that thinking (most of it) occurs from resisting something, i.e. not being completely open about what has happened or what will happen. And I can't think or not think myself out of that, everyone is trying to and failing. For me I have to somehow find the resistance-feeling hiding behind the thought, and then when that is found and attention is put to that, the thought becomes secondary and the real problem is attended to. It is really just about being open - surrendering. Even to the fact that you can't:)

[vacant]

Karen, Souley, bad enough when we try to take credit for achievements or success, as if!.. taking blame for or identifying with bad times or failure double sucks. Although we read a lot from the ones "in the know" that time is only an illusion, for those of us shackled, time heals and operates its process, its maturing. Nisargadatta says that although the fruit falls from the tree in an instant, you have to allow it the time to ripen.

I enjoy your reply Souley, about spotting resistance, attending to it, and staying open... more than a hint of LM's advise and in my book a great influence it is too. I think it's always useful to consciously ABANDON ownership of baggage whenever the possibility is offered, even if it pulls a bit of a scream at the parting. 2 quotes come to mind:

Anthony de Mello: suffering is a sign that you are asleep; identify negative feelings; do not say that they are an essential part of you; understand that when you change, everything changes.

Vernon Howard: your work is to notice the deceptive nature of your fear of not existing. You CANNOT and must NOT answer your own questions.

(hope I'm not infringing copyright rules!)

We have to make friends with the fact that nothing is for keeps, and if a moment's recognition works wonders for strengthening the "connection", establishing more familiarity with the feeling (sweet!) it quickly drifts into memory, and we have to rediscover again and again etc... But not all is hardship in the seeker's predicament, matter of fact, it is so heartwarming to look at it very honestly: It's not so much that we seek Truth, but more that we respond very clumsily to Truth seeking us...
(well, Itself!)
And what feels wonderful about that is that it can't go wrong. The very thing that can make me despair when I find that there is nothing I can do to progress, is also the Glory of it being out of my hands, and I can do nothing to stop it!

[Peter]

Oct 22, 2009 15:21:30 GMT -5 vacant said:

Nisargadatta says that although the fruit falls from the tree in an instant, you have to allow it the time to ripen.

Great quote!

Oct 22, 2009 15:21:30 GMT -5 vacant said:

Vernon Howard: your work is to notice the deceptive nature of your fear of not existing. You CANNOT and must NOT answer your own questions.

And that one really rang a bell with me since I've been becoming more OK with the idea that I might die without really Knowing The Truth. That's OK. Better to die saying I don't know, than to get stuck clinging on to the wrong thing. Who's to say there's "an answer" anyway? Maybe it's all true, it's all there, it's all happening.

I can also definitely relate to the fear of not existing. I'm still hanging on to the idea of some sort of post death experience. Interesting to hear him say that you "must not" answer your own questions though - can you explain what he meant by that, or give me a reference to the original source?

hope I'm not infringing copyright rules!

I'm sure quoting short sections for educational purposes is quite within the rules as long as you credit the author - which you've done. I'm sure Vernon would appreciate being quoted.

[vacant]

Peter, I've just looked around everywhere I could to find which book or talk by VH the "must not answer your own questions" comes from, but in vain so far, sorry. I often jot down quotes I come across that specifically rattle my cage, and this one has been lying around for at least months, with his name underneath.

In respect I would not claim to explain what he meant, but I can tell you what it says to me (for what it's worth): you must not try to answer your own questions BECAUSE you CANNOT. The satisfying answers come in the reality of experience, brought about by Life itself, but not expressed nor thought. Trying to formulate them deprives us of letting the answer "become". Not unlike the responses to the koans ZD is so fond of, beyond reason or logical deduction.

Although I think the above relates principally to the metaphysical questions, it does remind me of Douglas Harding's wonderful advice on solving problems in general. You might be familiar with it but if not, do check it out. I have no idea how you so cleverly insert your links under ANY word in blue, I do it the clumsy way:

www.headless.org/Default.aspx?PageID=280163&A=SearchResult&SearchID=933689&ObjectID=280163&ObjectType=1

[question]

Oct 23, 2009 11:58:48 GMT -5 vacant said:

In respect I would not claim to explain what he meant, but I can tell you what it says to me (for what it's worth): you must not try to answer your own questions BECAUSE you CANNOT. The satisfying answers come in the reality of experience, brought about by Life itself, but not expressed nor thought. Trying to formulate them deprives us of letting the answer "become". Not unlike the responses to the koans ZD is so fond of, beyond reason or logical deduction.

Maybe there is also some merit to arriving at no-mind by diving into logic intensely and eventually arriving at the point where thought can't justify its own existence.

But not like Socrates when he is saying "I know that I don't know!".. that is useless, it's like an epitaph that spoils his death. I prefer Wittgenstein when he says that thinking is like a ladder, and one "must so to speak throw away the ladder, after he has climbed up on it."

Maybe there are different styles of spiritual inquiry. To me it seems like I had no choice but think things through. I have a library of philosophical literature worth thousands of dollars, I was even thinking of a career in philosophy. When I threw away philosophy it was as joyous and liberating as walking home after the last day of school.

[karen]

I still fall for trying to figure things out, but when I'm in that logic mode I do my best to use it to find out errors in my perception rather than trying to see the real. Although, of course, I see the latter happening too.

[Peter]

Oct 23, 2009 11:58:48 GMT -5 vacant said:

I have no idea how you so cleverly insert your links under ANY word in blue

You do it with a url= tag like this:

Here is a [ url=htt p://my.link.com/link_here] link [ /url] test

Only remove the spaces within the square brackets. The word "link" in the above will be hyperlinked to my.link.com

General advice with any fancy formatted post is to click the "Quote" button, and then you'll be able to see the exact bbs (Bulletin Board Script) used in the reply box.

Cheers,
Peter

[robert]

i have never spent any time on a website where one can watch the threads of thought flow back and forth. it is actually a great visual a representation of the way mind often works. it is interesting to watch a conversation evolve when the topic interests me.
thanks
r.

[vacant]

Peter, thanks for taking the time to share your wizardry. Can't wait to put this nifty tool to use

[vacant]

Oct 23, 2009 4:32:41 GMT -5 Peter said:

And that one really rang a bell with me since I've been becoming more OK with the idea that I might die without really Knowing The Truth. That's OK. Better to die saying I don't know, than to get stuck clinging on to the wrong thing. Who's to say there's "an answer" anyway? Maybe it's all true, it's all there, it's all happening.

Peter, Franklin Merrell-Wolff’s work is an absolute MONUMENT of inspiration and I can never stay away from it for long. So I was just revisiting Philosophy & Experience what with the numerous notations I’ve made in it. I opened randomly at chapter 46 “The conditions that favor Recognition” and for some reason this post of yours came to mind. Are you familiar with this book?

If you have it, could you spare the time to go over that chapter? Because not only it rekindled joyful determination upon the seeker’s path (I needed a daily dose of rekindling, I do) but I vividly felt like telling you about it! I’m not superstitious by most accounts, but I take in LM’s and ZD’s exhortations to trust these things and who knows, there might be something there for you…

If you don’t have the book which I heartily recommend, I could have a go at summarizing the chapter here, but obviously having it straight from FMW would be considerably better. I particularly like the passage about the dynamics of the relationship with our Inner Guide. (??)