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Post by silver on Apr 26, 2014 11:59:43 GMT -5
Maybe what yous guys are trying to say is 'be present'. Hey look! One of my fave Beatles songs! |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2014 12:28:39 GMT -5
D: It's probably worth emphasizing what Quinn wrote about the jabbering not stopping suddenly. What Tolle calls the "compulsion of incessant thought" was so strong in my case that it took quite a bit of meditation before gaps between thoughts became long enough to be recognized as gaps, and even more time before the mind became silent for sustained periods of time. Today, the body can stop thinking "at will," but it does so only when "what is" chooses to do so because there is no longer an imaginary internal battle going on within an imagined thinker who desires various imagined states of being. There is simply "what is" manifesting "just like this." Thanks zd. I am trying to cultivate some detatchment from the internal chatter. Hard to do  It will certainly appear to be hard at first. It feels as if "you" are having to make an effort, and in one sense this is true. Even Nisargadatta talked about how hard it was for him when he first began trying to stay in the "I AM." The same sort of thing is true for most people who start meditating to acquire some peace of mind. The problem is that most of us fall into unconscious mental habits as we get older, and those mental habits of thought simply continue (or get worse) as time goes by. This is why I suggest shifting attention to the world around you while doing something physical. Last night I watched the Martin Sheen/Emelio Estevez movie, "The Way," about a father who decides to walk the Camino in northern Spain in honor of his son who died while walking the Camino. The documentary, "Walking the Camino, Six Ways to Santiago," is a better film, IMO, but the same sort of thing happens in both movies. As people walk along, mile after mile, looking at the world and interacting with it directly, they get out of their heads and become increasingly grounded. The social/emotional aspect is emphasized in both movies, but even if one walks totally alone, the walking and the direct perception will have a similar effect. You can do this without travelling to Spain, although I would recommend seeing both movies if they are availa ble to get a sense of why such pilgrimages/retreats are valuable. When people walk the Camino there is both an external journey and an internal journey, and both are important in their own way. I suggest that you find somewhere near your home that you can walk (preferably a place that will require some physical exertion) and simply shift attention, again and again, to what you can see or hear while walking along. There is a beautiful but strenuous trail in Nashville where I often hike a five-mile loop. I suspect that I see all kinds of things along that trail that most people never see. Half of the people on the trail are plugged into Ipods, and I suspect that many others are lost in their thoughts. They don't see the giant owls or hawks on overhead limbs, the massive 200-year-old trees, the intricate root systems of some trees, the incredible variety of wildflowers and plants, the moss-covered rocks, the enormous number of small animals, the trickling springs and streams, or anything else along the way. If they notice these things, they probably name them or comment upon them, but such internal commentary only occurs until that habit is replaced by the habit of looking and listening non-conceptually. Give it a try. You have nothing to lose but those negative thought loops, and I promise that you won't miss them at all. *smile* Here are the instructions: While walking along, shift attention to what can be seen or heard. Become curious about your surroundings. Really look and listen. As soon as a thought appears, use that thought as a reminder to shift attention back to what can be seen or heard. Do this again and again as thoughts appear. Can you look without naming what is seen? Can you look without thinking about what is seen? Stare at a flower. Watch a bird. Listen to the wind. Look at clouds. Investigate the way a caterpillar moves over a rock. This is one way to become present and to leave the personal narrative behind. Go do it! |
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Post by quinn on Apr 26, 2014 13:12:39 GMT -5
Quinny ... the vernacular of the day is .. "coffin nail" ..   Can I borrow that when you're done? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 13:29:44 GMT -5
Can I borrow that when you're done? I had hoped to share my thoughts on the wrecking crew, but Tzu has redirected my attention to some Hollywood drama... But I think you are far too mellow (meditation? ;-) I think you should get in there and mix it up a bit.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 13:43:18 GMT -5
Why would you suggest meditating for meditation's sake when his goal is peace of mind? Sounds counter-intuitive.  People who start meditating in order to quiet a jabbering out-of-control mind (to attain some peace of mind) usually do so under the illusion that they are personal entities with a jabbering out-of-control mind who need to do something in order to get something. So, there are three issues. First, there is the issue of quieting a jabbering mind, second, there is the idea of doing something to get something which is an activity oriented toward an imaginary future, and third, there is the issue of thinking that there is someone, a personal entity, who is being tormented by a jabbering mind. In his post Steve is addressing the second issue, but for someone who is being tormented by a jabbering negative out-of-control mind, it is probably too soon to focus on either the second or third issues. The initial task is to attain some peace of mind and freedom from the incessant negative jabbering. Djem's Krishnamurti quote is being misinterpreted, but D. has read so much about non-duality that he doesn't know what to believe. As someone who once suffered from a jabbering out-of-control mind, I can assure D. that shifting attention away from thoughts to either breath awareness or some other form of ATA will definitely create space in the mind and diminish the amount and intensity of the jabbering. After the mind has calmed down a bit, and is no longer driving one crazy, then the second and third issues can be investigated. The second issue, which Steve addressed, is the importance of becoming present during whatever activity is being pursued. In this case, meditation is the activity, so Steve is saying, in effect, "If you're meditating, do it for no reason at all." IOW, forget the idea of doing something now in order to get something in the future; just be present with whatever is happening. This is good advice, but in this case it's probably too early to be useful. At the moment D. believes that he is a person suffering from a jabbering, negative, out-of-control mind, so the first order of business is to deal with that issue. Reefs advice about working with the body is appropriate, and I would suggest taking some long walks in a park or wilderness area while looking at the world. This would combine physical exercise (getting grounded/getting into the body/getting out of one's head) with ATA. It's like killing two birds with one stone, and I used this approach myself when I first started trying to attain some freedom from the internal dialogue. FWIW I did the walking ATA thing in the afternoons after work and at night I sat on a sofa and counted the breaths, watched the breathing process, felt the breathing process, etc. I can assure D. that if he pursues these types of meditative activities, his mind will calm down and various insights will ensue. His attention will shift more and more often to the world around him and away from his negative thoughts. IMO that's the first and more important step. Later, as he becomes more present, he will appreciate the importance of presence. Eventually, if he "gets out of his head," persists in remaining psychologically present during much of the day, and becomes focused upon "what is," he will discover that he is not who he thinks he is. That is when meditation becomes truly impersonal. Here is the post with the full exchange, less the first post that D made about the mental jibber jabber :-) (Click on the blue bit just below here) spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/190262Overall, excellent post ZD, and really nicely written. |
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Post by runstill on Apr 26, 2014 14:17:31 GMT -5
D@mn you and your stinkin' logic (** ptooey! **)  ok then. Meditation happens. Maybe what yous guys are trying to say is 'be present'. I took it as not going into a meditation with expectations, probably ruins the meditation looking for something to happen.. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 15:00:39 GMT -5
djembebum.......I can totally relate. In 1974, '75 and '76 I suffered periods of almost unbearable depression (but I didn't put that label on it until 1976). I was in a constant battle within, the UGK quote is very apt for my state then. I struggled to find a reason to get up and move about every day, I had no meaning. I couldn't see a future. I continually had a lot of negative self-talk even though I had been reading J. Krishnamurti since about 1971. By '74 I had also read Carlos Castaneda so knew about stopping the internal dialogue and Joseph Chilton Pearce's Crack in the Cosmic Egg, his language was roof-brain chatter. But knowing that the internal tape loops could stop didn't help me to stop them. I became unbearable to myself. I got to the point that I had to escape from my own negative thinking. I've mentioned this before here on ST's, I had been ice skating since I was ten, so I used this and could stop my thoughts briefly by watching the movement of my legs while skating. However, I got to the point of considering suicide to end the non-stop internal dialogue. By then I had moved back in with my parents so I didn't have to worry about taking care of myself, as in, roof and food. I got to the point that I literally could not do anythng. I narrowed down my life to a few seconds. I got to the point that all I could do was put one foot in front of the other, and when I did that I did it again. I literally erased the future. Part of my problem was not seeing me doing anything in the future, so my focus narrowed to getting through the next few seconds. This helped, but the constant internal dialogue would not stop. During my last period of time of seriously considering suicide I said to myself, I don't care if I live or die. And then something clicked inside, I said to myself, well, if that's true, then I might-as-well live. Somehow that brought a sense of relief. Now, I had known that the internal dialogue was just the replaying of recorded tape-loops in my mind, but this relief brought some distance inside. In my mind I had known that the tape-loops weren't me, but the knowing became deeper than conceptual knowing, I knew I was going to be OK, something had broken loose inside. .........and within a month I had a "When the student is ready........"..__________.... Sense then everything has not been easy, but I've had a compass that keeps bringing me back on track........ All I can say is just keep exploring attention. There is scattered attention, interested attention and voluntary attention. Your attention is separate from thoughts, emotions, movements and sensations. If you find the present moment, thoughts will stop, because thought always involves time, thought is always in some sense a replay or a description. (That's not to say that it's impossible to simultaneously be in thought and in the present moment, but, I'd say that's a more complicated state of consciousness and maybe further down the road......)........ sdp Thanks sdp |
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Post by silence on Apr 26, 2014 16:00:26 GMT -5
90 minutes huh ..  .. I'd need a frickin' ritalin iv!  I envy people who can still their minds. Mine is a self-defeating, recursive fear machine. I've read all I can about non-duality and I still haven't found the Golden Ratio. Most days I am just in a sh## load of pain and frustration. Leave the division between you and your mind out and all that's revealed is that you're afraid and confused. Fear and confusion are not conducive to quietness. |
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Post by silence on Apr 26, 2014 16:09:39 GMT -5
Thats okay, there is nothing that says you have failed if you go from being aware of mind movements to being absorbed by them...when you realize that you got absorbed, just chuckle it off, FORGIVE YOURSELF, and go back to being aware of thoughts for as long as it lasts. Just keep returning, and eventually it will become more common that you aware than unaware, just persist, without beating yourself up. Some methods that are pretty good for dealing with incessant thinking: 1. Watch VERY alertly for each though to appear, try to catch the moment it appears, like you are watching for a drop of water to drip from the faucet so you can catch it....just watch intently. 2. See your thoughts as clouds passing through a clear blue sky...just watch the thoughts pass by in the distant spaciousness of the sky. 3. Imagine an empty space inside your tongue, a totally empty void, and focus your attention on the dark empty void inside your tongue. 4. Sit quietly and focus on the breath moving in and out, see where the natural 'thresholds are where the breath turns from in to out, and out to in, then consciously breath in a little deeper than normal, and breath out a little further than normal, do this for ten breaths, counting each breath, on the 11th breath, and each one after that, continue to breath in a little deeper than normal, and out a little further than normal, but instead of counting, each time you breath out, when the outward breath has gone below the normal threshold for outward breath, give a sharp little exhale by pulling the belly button inward, and just STOP all movement of breath for just a moment. Repeat that on each breath. (Make sure you are belly breathing, not just breathing in this practice, this is VERY important. All of these will make a kind of 'space', or a gap...keep coming back to that gap, and centering your attention on it, and the space will increase, while the volume of the BS in life gets turned down ;-) I'll try it, empty. But see, already there are all these memories of reading UG Krishnamurti disparaging meditation, so I'm like "what's the point if it doesn't work?" I think I've read so many different people that I dont know what's what anymore. Doesn't work refers to the fact that any and all attempts to escape are futile. Can you sit down and shut up without on some level trying to escape? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 16:56:13 GMT -5
Maybe what yous guys are trying to say is 'be present'. I took it as not going into a meditation with expectations, probably ruins the meditation looking for something to happen.. Both are right. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 26, 2014 18:10:41 GMT -5
Maybe what yous guys are trying to say is 'be present'. I took it as not going into a meditation with expectations, probably ruins the meditation looking for something to happen.. If you don't expect something to happen, why would you do it? |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2014 19:18:56 GMT -5
I took it as not going into a meditation with expectations, probably ruins the meditation looking for something to happen.. If you don't expect something to happen, why would you do it? Bingo! That's why I suggested that being present in the absence of expectations is a secondary issue whose importance is only recognized after some initial calmness of mind has been attained. The only reason I can consciously ascribe to starting a meditation practice was a book's claim that counting and following the breath would lead to greater peace of mind, and I was pretty desperate for anything that might help bring some peace of mind at that time. I was willing to try anything that might help, but I was such a skeptic that I combined the breath-counting exercise with an hour of walking. I figured that even if the meditative exercise didn't help, at least I'd get some exercise. Ha ha. Only much later did it become obvious that being present and focused upon "what is" fundamentally changes how one interacts with the world and affects subconscious functions of mind. Meditation/ATA causes a lot of changes that are not immediately obvious when first pursued. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 26, 2014 19:36:44 GMT -5
If you don't expect something to happen, why would you do it? Bingo! That's why I suggested that being present in the absence of expectations is a secondary issue whose importance is only recognized after some initial calmness of mind has been attained. The only reason I can consciously ascribe to starting a meditation practice was a book's claim that counting and following the breath would lead to greater peace of mind, and I was pretty desperate for anything that might help bring some peace of mind at that time. I was willing to try anything that might help, but I was such a skeptic that I combined the breath-counting exercise with an hour of walking. I figured that even if the meditative exercise didn't help, at least I'd get some exercise. Ha ha. Only much later did it become obvious that being present and focused upon "what is" fundamentally changes how one interacts with the world and affects subconscious functions of mind. Meditation/ATA causes a lot of changes that are not immediately obvious when first pursued. It's pretty clear to me that the reason you 'awakened' was not really about any practice. It was about desperation, willingness, sincerity, dedication, devotion and passion. If you can figure out how to bottle that, I can find a market for it. |
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Post by teetown on Apr 26, 2014 20:42:03 GMT -5
Excellent, really great news. whelp, when ya's ready fer the wreckin' crew, you know where to find'em .. **Stands quietly with sledge hammer resting on shoulder....**  |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2014 21:02:26 GMT -5
Bingo! That's why I suggested that being present in the absence of expectations is a secondary issue whose importance is only recognized after some initial calmness of mind has been attained. The only reason I can consciously ascribe to starting a meditation practice was a book's claim that counting and following the breath would lead to greater peace of mind, and I was pretty desperate for anything that might help bring some peace of mind at that time. I was willing to try anything that might help, but I was such a skeptic that I combined the breath-counting exercise with an hour of walking. I figured that even if the meditative exercise didn't help, at least I'd get some exercise. Ha ha. Only much later did it become obvious that being present and focused upon "what is" fundamentally changes how one interacts with the world and affects subconscious functions of mind. Meditation/ATA causes a lot of changes that are not immediately obvious when first pursued. It's pretty clear to me that the reason you 'awakened' was not really about any practice. It was about desperation, willingness, sincerity, dedication, devotion and passion. If you can figure out how to bottle that, I can find a market for it. Well, we have a difference of opinion about that, but there's no way to know for sure. However, if I can find a way to bottle the desperation, willingness, sincerity, dedication, devotion, curiosity, passion, insane need to understand what's going on, etc, then I'll want part of the royalties from the sale of those bottles! |
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