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Post by tzujanli on Jun 2, 2013 16:30:56 GMT -5
Greetings.. I observed my thoughts intently for a while, and then one day out of the blue it dawned on me that most if not all of them were simply not true. So then the steady stream of thoughts in my head subsided (or perhaps just receded into some dark corner somewhere.) And though "still mind" certainly seems better than the alternative, it obviously isn't the end of the search. But I have no idea where to go from here, so it appears I'm stuck in some kind of a still mind limbo. It sounds you've just arrived at where you are trying to 'go', and are trying to understand land/mind-scape.. We are traveling to where we have always been, from ignorance to enlightenment.. awareness is the the vehicle.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 18:58:33 GMT -5
Seeing Top & Tzu in some eerie type of agreement is somehow disconcerting. ;-) I don't believe you, that can't be all there is to it, that would be extraordinarily disappointing.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 2, 2013 19:10:30 GMT -5
Seeing Top & Tzu in some eerie type of agreement is somehow disconcerting. ;-) I don't believe you, that can't be all there is to it, that would be extraordinarily disappointing. Nobody, generally, can get beyond what they strive for. You have to ask yourself what it is that you wish?, what is your goal? what is your aim? You yourself are your only limit. Happy hunting........ sdp |
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Post by topology on Jun 2, 2013 20:16:44 GMT -5
Seeing Top & Tzu in some eerie type of agreement is somehow disconcerting. ;-) I don't believe you, that can't be all there is to it, that would be extraordinarily disappointing. What would be extraordinarily disappointing? |
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 2, 2013 20:36:38 GMT -5
Greetings.. Seeing Top & Tzu in some eerie type of agreement is somehow disconcerting. ;-) I don't believe you, that can't be all there is to it, that would be extraordinarily disappointing. Great expectations breed great disappointments.. I can recall the first time i consciously and intentionally 'let go' of everything, the inspiration to let go was based on certain 'disappointments', but.. the effect, the 'feeling', was an increasing peaceful exhilaration, increasing as beliefs and knowings accelerated falling away.. the more that fell away, the more stillness sunk into my presence, and the more that stillness was manifesting, the more awareness was expanding into the unknown.. a sense of free-falling and soaring in every direction at the same instant, and the feeling of a deep and resonant vibration permeating all of everything.. later, as i contemplated the experience, i recall thinking that the ancient Hindu's must have felt something similar to have a consensus about the sound of 'Om/Aum'.. anyway, my point, if there is one, is that, from my experiences there has never been even a fraction of a disappointment from the experience of 'letting go'.. there have been some anxious experiences as awareness expands faster than the local version of consciousness can resolve the non-local/local relationships, but even that is ridiculously exhilarating.. as my local version of consciousness approaches complete stillness, awareness expands exponentially toward its infinite limitlessness, and.. in that stillness, all that 'is' is revealed, though far from understood or even comprehensible from the local perspective, it is 'that' awareness that drops me to my knees in humble gratitude for the opportunity to exist as a sentient experience of existence.. the deep appreciation of being a 'me' that is also 'we'/us/Life.. oops sorry, i sort of rambled a bit.. i guess i 'let go'.. i usually get the psychoanalysis team's opinions after i reveal anything personal, but i'm just sharing 'me' with 'we'.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 20:49:58 GMT -5
Seeing Top & Tzu in some eerie type of agreement is somehow disconcerting. ;-) I don't believe you, that can't be all there is to it, that would be extraordinarily disappointing. What would be extraordinarily disappointing? nothing, I was being facetious. various complaints and agitations come and go, and various habits and patterns keep repeating themselves, but nothing really 'sticks', as if there's nothing actually there for it to stick to .. so, its all good, I wouldn't change a thing ... |
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Post by silence on Jun 2, 2013 23:52:32 GMT -5
Where does the boundary of mind end so that we may notice without its interference? There is a difference between thought as function, and being conscious. (I first noticed this in elementary school. I could be reading but suddenly notice that even though my eyes were still following each word on the page, my mind was elsewhere, thinking of something different. I would then have to go back and find the place where my mind was still engaged with the words on the page, as I always could. Why did I have to go back? Because I was not conscious of what I had read and therefore remembered nothing of what the eyes had actually been following. Of course I did not put it into those words, then, I only knew I had to go back and read again what I had just read, very annoying. It was only years later that I was taught and came to understand the difference between scattered attention, interested attention and directed attention). You can always go back and look at how a newborn baby encounters the world. A newborn baby has no self, no ego, no cultural self, no thoughts as abstract representations. But a newborn baby knows of hunger, knows of a wet or dirty diaper, (and communicates this through crying). How? Through their inborn awareness, through their attention. Your attention and awareness are there, within, just as pristine as a newborn's. But they are continually caught and held prisoner by the contents of the neural structure, false self. This is the boundary. Spiritual practice is separating out and living through your attention (&/or awareness) instead of it continually being held captive by the tiny little self. But what's simple is not easy. sdp Thanks for relating a story of your own. Outside of that, you seem to have a more new age version of good vs. evil going on with the false/little self thing. |
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Post by silence on Jun 2, 2013 23:54:31 GMT -5
The second scenario is simply a more devious form of the first. Both involve someone at the steering wheel. I basically agree. People aren't looking for the obvious. The obvious has already been discounted long ago. It was in response to Tzu talking about noticing without engaging the mind. I'm basically saying mind isn't being shut down and then coming back into the picture as most would have it. Yes, I know it was in response to Tzu talking about noticing w/o engaging mind. Is mind supposed to be 'shut down' then, in your view? I honestly don't think it was ever meant to be the way you envision a 'better' existence (?) I think I prefer a holistic approach to nearly everything - in this instance, where mind is not treated like some kind of pariah - not unlike the 'ego'. I don't think anyone can pin anything on them - practically speaking.  I don't think you even really read posts you respond to. |
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Post by silver on Jun 3, 2013 0:04:43 GMT -5
Yes, I know it was in response to Tzu talking about noticing w/o engaging mind. Is mind supposed to be 'shut down' then, in your view? I honestly don't think it was ever meant to be the way you envision a 'better' existence (?) I think I prefer a holistic approach to nearly everything - in this instance, where mind is not treated like some kind of pariah - not unlike the 'ego'. I don't think anyone can pin anything on them - practically speaking. I don't think you even really read posts you respond to. Not true. If my responses don't make sense to you, I think that's on you. |
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Post by amit on Jun 3, 2013 3:35:04 GMT -5
Hi stardustpilgrim,
When we attempt to communicate in words as we do here, our mind tries to make contact with how we are feeling about whatever the subject may be and put it into words which are then communicated to another mind which tries to relate what has been heard to feeling. Back and forth it goes, maybe some clarification is asked for and received, and maybe some groking is experienced. People seem to like that sort of thing "I know what you mean" or "I have felt that way myself". People call it sharing. Is there anything wrong with that process as far as you are concerned?
Awareness is an interesting subject. Are we aware when we are sleeping for instance? Is awareness always present? Does awareness have to be of something for it to be present? In the 60's we used the term "Goofing out" at least we did here in Wales. You'd be driving along and would become suddenly aware that you were 20 miles up the road with no memory or awareness of those intervening miles or your existence during them. Yet the car had covered the distance with presumably you turning the wheel this way or that, braking occasionally and reaching for the spliff. Is awareness therefore never absent and not dependent on whether you are present or not? It seems like it is in which case there is no such thing as the absence of awareness.
amit
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 3, 2013 4:26:46 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi stardustpilgrim, When we attempt to communicate in words as we do here, our mind tries to make contact with how we are feeling about whatever the subject may be and put it into words which are then communicated to another mind which tries to relate what has been heard to feeling. Back and forth it goes, maybe some clarification is asked for and received, and maybe some groking is experienced. People seem to like that sort of thing "I know what you mean" or "I have felt that way myself". People call it sharing. Is there anything wrong with that process as far as you are concerned? Awareness is an interesting subject. Are we aware when we are sleeping for instance? Is awareness always present? Does awareness have to be of something for it to be present? In the 60's we used the term "Goofing out" at least we did here in Wales. You'd be driving along and would become suddenly aware that you were 20 miles up the road with no memory or awareness of those intervening miles or your existence during them. Yet the car had covered the distance with presumably you turning the wheel this way or that, braking occasionally and reaching for the spliff. Is awareness therefore never absent and not dependent on whether you are present or not? It seems like it is in which case there is no such thing as the absence of awareness. amit Hi Amit: It is my understanding that consciousness is constant, ever-present, and.. its attribute, awareness, comes and goes.. under the effects of anesthesia, awareness is not present, however, upon awakening (most) memories are intact and the individual resumes their version of normal interacting with existence.. there are those that use consciousness/awareness interchangeably, but i don't understand why.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 7:33:59 GMT -5
We all know what thinking is, we spend the majority of our time there. Words just rattle around up there, a continuous stream of sense or nonsense, symbolic abstract representation at least once removed from reality. That's the function of the superficial layer of mind (other functions are emotion, and acts via muscular movement). But there is another way to live. What is deeper than thought? What is prior to thought? Your awareness is separate from thought. Your attention is separate from thought. The problem is that one's attention and one's awareness become the slave of thought, the deeper aspect of our being is subjected to the more shallow. Now, you can't function in the world without minimal awareness of your exterior surroundings. The question is, what do you value? Now, you have to get a taste of the difference between living mostly through thought, OTOH, and living primarily through one's awareness OTOH. We are thoroughly familiar with what it means to live through thought. You can begin exploring living through awareness by sensing, or watching one's breath. Try something simple, we all almost always have tension is our facial muscles. Right now, for a few seconds, become aware of the tension in your face. Or become aware of the pressure of your body against your chair as you sit. What happens when you try these? Thoughts almost immediately pop up. Thoughts just magically appear in the space a little above and behind your eyes. Now you have a choice, you can continue to live 'as normal', through your thoughts (which are necessarily at least once removed from reality), or you can take back your awareness, and live primarily through your awareness, secondarily through thought. But you have to really get a feel for the distinction, a taste, and value one over the other, or else you will simply disappear back into ordinary life. One thing you can try anytime when you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. These are just words. You have to actually explore this for yourself, find it in yourself. It is possible to find the deeper and more essential in yourself. sdp As I understand it, awareness can not become the slave of thought. Attention, yes. But awareness is always there totally untouched by thought. Attention gets jerked around every which way, based pretty much on conditioning. Attending the actual -- paying attention to bodily sensations -- is a way of playing with conditioning so that attention returns to nonconceptual experience more regularly and persistently. Eventually the interest in attending to thoughts wanes. This is the same idea with mindfulness practices, in my experience. And effortless meditation is just a sneaky way of setting up conditions to create a microcosm of the whole. |
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Post by topology on Jun 3, 2013 8:02:38 GMT -5
We all know what thinking is, we spend the majority of our time there. Words just rattle around up there, a continuous stream of sense or nonsense, symbolic abstract representation at least once removed from reality. That's the function of the superficial layer of mind (other functions are emotion, and acts via muscular movement). But there is another way to live. What is deeper than thought? What is prior to thought? Your awareness is separate from thought. Your attention is separate from thought. The problem is that one's attention and one's awareness become the slave of thought, the deeper aspect of our being is subjected to the more shallow. Now, you can't function in the world without minimal awareness of your exterior surroundings. The question is, what do you value? Now, you have to get a taste of the difference between living mostly through thought, OTOH, and living primarily through one's awareness OTOH. We are thoroughly familiar with what it means to live through thought. You can begin exploring living through awareness by sensing, or watching one's breath. Try something simple, we all almost always have tension is our facial muscles. Right now, for a few seconds, become aware of the tension in your face. Or become aware of the pressure of your body against your chair as you sit. What happens when you try these? Thoughts almost immediately pop up. Thoughts just magically appear in the space a little above and behind your eyes. Now you have a choice, you can continue to live 'as normal', through your thoughts (which are necessarily at least once removed from reality), or you can take back your awareness, and live primarily through your awareness, secondarily through thought. But you have to really get a feel for the distinction, a taste, and value one over the other, or else you will simply disappear back into ordinary life. One thing you can try anytime when you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. These are just words. You have to actually explore this for yourself, find it in yourself. It is possible to find the deeper and more essential in yourself. sdp As I understand it, awareness can not become the slave of thought. Attention, yes. But awareness is always there totally untouched by thought. Attention gets jerked around every which way, based pretty much on conditioning. Attending the actual -- paying attention to bodily sensations -- is a way of playing with conditioning so that attention returns to nonconceptual experience more regularly and persistently. Eventually the interest in attending to thoughts wanes. This is the same idea with mindfulness practices, in my experience. And effortless meditation is just a sneaky way of setting up conditions to create a microcosm of the whole. Your tone is fairly confident in what you are saying here, max. Where is that confidence coming from? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 8:30:13 GMT -5
As I understand it, awareness can not become the slave of thought. Attention, yes. But awareness is always there totally untouched by thought. Attention gets jerked around every which way, based pretty much on conditioning. Attending the actual -- paying attention to bodily sensations -- is a way of playing with conditioning so that attention returns to nonconceptual experience more regularly and persistently. Eventually the interest in attending to thoughts wanes. This is the same idea with mindfulness practices, in my experience. And effortless meditation is just a sneaky way of setting up conditions to create a microcosm of the whole. Your tone is fairly confident in what you are saying here, max. Where is that confidence coming from? Must be my pastlife memories of being a Spartacus gladiator general. Or maybe it's the PG Tips. |
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Post by topology on Jun 3, 2013 9:20:02 GMT -5
Your tone is fairly confident in what you are saying here, max. Where is that confidence coming from? Must be my pastlife memories of being a Spartacus gladiator general. Or maybe it's the PG Tips. So nothing to do with speaking from you own experience and understanding on the matter? |
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