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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 3:24:20 GMT -5
What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”? are the thoughts in my head true? can I trust them? after many months of persistent, honest, inquiry ... the answer seemed to be "no" on both counts. but it wasn't like a typical word answer 'no', but more like a deep intuitive knowing. and once it occurred two things 'happened'; the constant barrage of thoughts in my head stopped/slowed, and two, I became somewhat discombobulated. I mean, if you can't trust your own thoughts, who can you trust? nothing I had been believing seemed true any more, at best it was only half-true, and much of those beliefs turned out to be a complete imaginary nonsense. and then came the internal dialog battle ... who's asking the questions/ and who's answering them? Jeez, what a clusterphuck ... and so, a few years later, here I sit. I've pretty much determined that mind can't examine its self, that you need to gain a higher perspective for that operation, that you need to 'get out of the box'. I'm still looking for an escape hatch :-)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 4:44:42 GMT -5
What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”? are the thoughts in my head true? can I trust them? after many months of persistent, honest, inquiry ... the answer seemed to be "no" on both counts. but it wasn't like a typical word answer 'no', but more like a deep intuitive knowing. and once it occurred two things 'happened'; the constant barrage of thoughts in my head stopped/slowed, and two, I became somewhat discombobulated. I mean, if you can't trust your own thoughts, who can you trust? nothing I had been believing seemed true any more, at best it was only half-true, and much of those beliefs turned out to be a complete imaginary nonsense. and then came the internal dialog battle ... who's asking the questions/ and who's answering them? Jeez, what a clusterphuck ... and so, a few years later, here I sit. I've pretty much determined that mind can't examine its self, that you need to gain a higher perspective for that operation, that you need to 'get out of the box'. I'm still looking for an escape hatch :-) If 'a deep intuitive knowing' is what was opened, to reveal that a lot of thoughts were lies, then what is the 'higher perspective' needed to examine, mind?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 5:02:23 GMT -5
If 'a deep intuitive knowing' is what was opened, to reveal that a lot of thoughts were lies, then what is the 'higher perspective' needed to examine, mind? yeah I lost my way there toward the end, and it turned into babble brook road, hehe
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Post by earnest on Apr 3, 2013 5:51:51 GMT -5
Gawd,.. where to even start. I’m going to cherry pick a bit from the posts. Like a Koan the teacher is able to stop the incessant internal dialogue of the student for the briefest of moments. And it is in that moment where THIS, which has always been here, is revealed. Obviously, but to those not yet aware of that, they need to get their minds "out of the imagined way" to create the space needed to see that. Focusing on the moment and ignoring the mind might give that opportunity. They have to play with the dealt cards. If there is still an imagined self, might as well give it imagined tasks, to reach the imagined goal. This stopping is what I find the question is most useful for. When I ask a question like “what can I find that belongs to me?” there is a bit of internal dialogue – “nup, not this, not this, not this,.. then it goes to “… … …” (sorry,.. return of the dots..) but it all goes quiet. What feels like a real deep listening (ATA) to what’s coming in through the senses. But then the question is not always necessary and sometimes its just a case of going straight to ATA. I realised briefly today on the way to work that the deep listening is more satisfying and interesting than any mental commentary I come up with, and this all went south on the way home with a series of dramatic stories (ATA between the episodes) Even Koans, as great a teachers as they are, often create the illusion of progression. Seems to me that its all a sticky fog until This decides to show up and clear everything up....... Yeah I’ve noticed that, a slight buzz off bits of realisations (achievement buzz…) I figure rules are made to be broken. (yes,.. but be quiet about it! The sign on the gate may say beware of the dog but,… ) ... It is possible for mind to be tricked, confused, and even badgered into seeing, or perhaps experiencing, the truth for a moment, but we have to ask how useful that actually is. It is seen, and then it isn't, and because of the nature of the seeing, there are no tracks left in the mind and no breadcrumbs to follow back to it. This recidivism is because the conditioning has not been changed, and the moment mind realizes it has been tricked, it immediately recovers it's delusional stance and holds on for dear life. argh,… the conditioning. If there is the attempt to repeat that 'moment', it is always approached from the perspective of mind grasping for something, which quite effectively prevents success. certainly found that out from experience… A most serious teacher would have no qualms about using any means available, to loosen a most serious students grip on Reality. What do you think qualifies a student as being serious? --- So on I go,. doing things (ATA, inquiry etc) with the aim of triggering the "pop" but knowing that nothing I do will actually make it happen - and being suprisingly ok with that
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Post by earnest on Apr 3, 2013 6:05:14 GMT -5
What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”? are the thoughts in my head true? can I trust them? after many months of persistent, honest, inquiry ... the answer seemed to be "no" on both counts. but it wasn't like a typical word answer 'no', but more like a deep intuitive knowing. and once it occurred two things 'happened'; the constant barrage of thoughts in my head stopped/slowed, and two, I became somewhat discombobulated. I mean, if you can't trust your own thoughts, who can you trust? nothing I had been believing seemed true any more, at best it was only half-true, and much of those beliefs turned out to be a complete imaginary nonsense. and then came the internal dialog battle ... who's asking the questions/ and who's answering them? Jeez, what a clusterphuck ... and so, a few years later, here I sit. I've pretty much determined that mind can't examine its self, that you need to gain a higher perspective for that operation, that you need to 'get out of the box'. I'm still looking for an escape hatch :-) Interesting stuff Farmer... do you do any self-inquiry these days?
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Post by zendancer on Apr 3, 2013 6:28:46 GMT -5
Reality is that which is sought. It is the grip on ignorance which needs loosened. In my opinion a teacher knows that TRUTH is not sought-able. His only job is convince the student that there is another view of Reality, separate from the one that is normally conceived. And that it is just as pragmatic as the one that the student has a death grip on. It is not so much a gaining of something, but rather a pitting of one view of Reality against another. A teacher is not trying to encourage or convince a student to exchange one view of Reality with another. A teacher is encouraging a student to leave all views of Reality behind and realize that s/he IS Reality. A teacher points only to Presence.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 6:34:26 GMT -5
If 'a deep intuitive knowing' is what was opened, to reveal that a lot of thoughts were lies, then what is the 'higher perspective' needed to examine, mind? yeah I lost my way there toward the end, and it turned into babble brook road, hehe No worries
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Post by topology on Apr 3, 2013 6:50:27 GMT -5
Gawd,.. where to even start. I’m going to cherry pick a bit from the posts. Like a Koan the teacher is able to stop the incessant internal dialogue of the student for the briefest of moments. And it is in that moment where THIS, which has always been here, is revealed. Obviously, but to those not yet aware of that, they need to get their minds "out of the imagined way" to create the space needed to see that. Focusing on the moment and ignoring the mind might give that opportunity. They have to play with the dealt cards. If there is still an imagined self, might as well give it imagined tasks, to reach the imagined goal. This stopping is what I find the question is most useful for. When I ask a question like “what can I find that belongs to me?” there is a bit of internal dialogue – “nup, not this, not this, not this,.. then it goes to “… … …” (sorry,.. return of the dots..) but it all goes quiet. What feels like a real deep listening (ATA) to what’s coming in through the senses. But then the question is not always necessary and sometimes its just a case of going straight to ATA. I realised briefly today on the way to work that the deep listening is more satisfying and interesting than any mental commentary I come up with, and this all went south on the way home with a series of dramatic stories (ATA between the episodes) Even Koans, as great a teachers as they are, often create the illusion of progression. Seems to me that its all a sticky fog until This decides to show up and clear everything up....... Yeah I’ve noticed that, a slight buzz off bits of realisations (achievement buzz…) I figure rules are made to be broken. (yes,.. but be quiet about it! The sign on the gate may say beware of the dog but,… ) ... It is possible for mind to be tricked, confused, and even badgered into seeing, or perhaps experiencing, the truth for a moment, but we have to ask how useful that actually is. It is seen, and then it isn't, and because of the nature of the seeing, there are no tracks left in the mind and no breadcrumbs to follow back to it. This recidivism is because the conditioning has not been changed, and the moment mind realizes it has been tricked, it immediately recovers it's delusional stance and holds on for dear life. argh,… the conditioning. If there is the attempt to repeat that 'moment', it is always approached from the perspective of mind grasping for something, which quite effectively prevents success. certainly found that out from experience… A most serious teacher would have no qualms about using any means available, to loosen a most serious students grip on Reality. What do you think qualifies a student as being serious? --- So on I go,. doing things (ATA, inquiry etc) with the aim of triggering the "pop" but knowing that nothing I do will actually make it happen - and being suprisingly ok with that Sounds like you are in for more of a fizzle than s pop, is that okay?
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Post by earnest on Apr 3, 2013 7:14:08 GMT -5
Sounds like you are in for more of a fizzle than s pop, is that okay? I'll gratefully accept what I'm given (but I intellectualy understand that the giving - This - is happening all the time, and that the issue may be the receiving)
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Post by topology on Apr 3, 2013 8:01:03 GMT -5
Sounds like you are in for more of a fizzle than s pop, is that okay? I'll gratefully accept what I'm given (but I intellectualy understand that the giving - This - is happening all the time, and that the issue may be the receiving) Have you heard Rose's "pop"? If i remember the story right: He had a huge out of body experience where he floated out a window and came upon a mountain covered in people trying to climb to the top and he saw himself as one of those people, and that was when his ego collapsed in on itself. What lead up to this OBE is just as important for context as the OBE itself. Rose was psychic and he prided himself on his intuitiveness and ability to read people. He was engaged to a woman whom he thought was madly in love with him (might be embellishing here). He followed her one day and saw her knock on someone's door. A woman answered, they kissed and went inside (details capture the gist if not literally what happened) and he went into shock. It was a slap across the face to his Ego, his self identity of being so intuitive and a good reader of people. He didn't even pick up on his own fiancé being bisexual and having a lover on the side. Anyhow, Rose tells his students about his literal mountain-top realization. His students begin to fantasize about having such a profound phenomenal experience for themselves. The expectation created a block. It wasn't until Rose left the picture that any of his students made "final" realizations for themselves. They were constantly comparing themselves to their teacher who was an amazingly eloquent, intuitive, charismatic person. My point is, expectation of what you are going to receive is a barrier. You receive nothing. There is nothing added. Whether you get a nice big pop is dependent on the type of blow to your ego and how big of a spiritual ego you have riding on your shoulders. It also relates to the kind of experiences you are prone to having, psychic phenomena and OBE, or just being Joe blow, sack of meat. Are you content with an "oh" or are you expecting an "OH MY FU.CKING GOD!"?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 8:07:45 GMT -5
... do you do any self-inquiry these days? ha, I just recently dispatched this exact question to the Void for guidance .. but I haven't heard back yet. ;-) so, yes its the only thing I ever do, and no, I don't do anything. don't meditate, don't read, don't ponder (much) its just one of those crazy pair-o-soxes
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 9:34:10 GMT -5
I'll gratefully accept what I'm given (but I intellectualy understand that the giving - This - is happening all the time, and that the issue may be the receiving) Have you heard Rose's "pop"? If i remember the story right: He had a huge out of body experience where he floated out a window and came upon a mountain covered in people trying to climb to the top and he saw himself as one of those people, and that was when his ego collapsed in on itself. What lead up to this OBE is just as important for context as the OBE itself. Rose was psychic and he prided himself on his intuitiveness and ability to read people. He was engaged to a woman whom he thought was madly in love with him (might be embellishing here). He followed her one day and saw her knock on someone's door. A woman answered, they kissed and went inside (details capture the gist if not literally what happened) and he went into shock. It was a slap across the face to his Ego, his self identity of being so intuitive and a good reader of people. He didn't even pick up on his own fiancé being bisexual and having a lover on the side. Anyhow, Rose tells his students about his literal mountain-top realization. His students begin to fantasize about having such a profound phenomenal experience for themselves. The expectation created a block. It wasn't until Rose left the picture that any of his students made "final" realizations for themselves. They were constantly comparing themselves to their teacher who was an amazingly eloquent, intuitive, charismatic person. My point is, expectation of what you are going to receive is a barrier. You receive nothing. There is nothing added. Whether you get a nice big pop is dependent on the type of blow to your ego and how big of a spiritual ego you have riding on your shoulders. It also relates to the kind of experiences you are prone to having, psychic phenomena and OBE, or just being Joe blow, sack of meat. Are you content with an "oh" or are you expecting an "OH MY FU.CKING GOD!"? Where are the stories of joe blow, sack of meat, fizzlers? Are they just too boring to notice? The 15years later guy ZD mentioned was pretty encouraging. Here's a question earnest: "what is it like without expectation?" <-- sort of similar to the coming empty concept.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2013 11:21:57 GMT -5
It seems to me that an expectation, once noticed, would form a useful focus of self-inquiry. The prescription to "drop all expectation" is flawed as it is an ambition, but when one is noticed, it's likely to manifest as a voice in the head expressing an outcome and the reasons that the specific outcome should come to pass and the sequence of events that is likely to lead to it. This can be accompanied by feelings of alertness, anxiety even... a physical tension related to the possibility of the expectation being dashed. Paying attention to that voice and those feelings, not to associate some cause with them, not to reinforce them or validate them or to belittle or diminish them, but just to look at them as they arise, is self-inquiry. (at least one form of it)The question "who is it that has this expectation?" doesn't have to be in the forefront of the mind, and here we can see how the "who" translates directly into the "what" ... because it is obviously the body/mind that noticed the expectation that "has the expectation" so to speak. In the witnessing as the expectation arises and falls within the attention, it is the structures of thought and conditioning... the "what" that forms the expectation, that is witnessed. To expect that the expectation will never arise again after being "successfully witnessed into oblivion" a single time is what it is, an expectation... ... as would be the expectation that the expectation would weaken over time ... but to be honest, this is kinda' what happens ... In the absence of a single or a set of expectations, especially after some of the most bedrock ones that underlie the daily actor have been witnessed for awhile, a sort of dry, dissatisfied, empty nihilistic outlook can come in to fill the void. Don't expect this of course ( ), but if it happens it's just another opportunity, another focus for self-inquiry.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2013 11:36:13 GMT -5
What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”? are the thoughts in my head true? can I trust them? after many months of persistent, honest, inquiry ... the answer seemed to be "no" on both counts. but it wasn't like a typical word answer 'no', but more like a deep intuitive knowing. and once it occurred two things 'happened'; the constant barrage of thoughts in my head stopped/slowed, and two, I became somewhat discombobulated. I mean, if you can't trust your own thoughts, who can you trust? nothing I had been believing seemed true any more, at best it was only half-true, and much of those beliefs turned out to be a complete imaginary nonsense. and then came the internal dialog battle ... who's asking the questions/ and who's answering them? Jeez, what a clusterphuck ... and so, a few years later, here I sit. I've pretty much determined that mind can't examine its self, that you need to gain a higher perspective for that operation, that you need to 'get out of the box'. I'm still looking for an escape hatch :-) People do all sorts of things and have all sorts of rituals to center themselves. They have a morning routine, they stick to schedules, they take up hobbies that give them a focus other than materially supporting their lifestyles, they like to read or to relax or engage in physical recreation. Hell, even just sitting down each week to watch a favorite TV show is a form of centering in a way. One aspect of meditation is that in those moments or intervals in which the mind is quiet, really really quiet, there is no split, no multiple voices, no confusion. Approaching such a practice with such an expectation is of course, an expectation, and it is at least an irony if not a paradox that meditation provides a center for life without a center. There seems to be a quite a bit of cultural baggage attached to that word ... "meditation", but in my mind it can be as simple as just sitting down somewhere you won't be interrupted for like 10 minutes, closing your eyes, and simply cultivating an attitude of witnessing the contents of the mind from as unjudgmental a perspective as can be mustered. The metaphor of the mind as the sky and thoughts as clouds is useful for describing this ... just sit with your eyes closed for a few minutes and watch the clouds roll by without sticking animal-shapes on them and don't expect it not to rain.
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Post by topology on Apr 3, 2013 12:18:41 GMT -5
Have you heard Rose's "pop"? If i remember the story right: He had a huge out of body experience where he floated out a window and came upon a mountain covered in people trying to climb to the top and he saw himself as one of those people, and that was when his ego collapsed in on itself. What lead up to this OBE is just as important for context as the OBE itself. Rose was psychic and he prided himself on his intuitiveness and ability to read people. He was engaged to a woman whom he thought was madly in love with him (might be embellishing here). He followed her one day and saw her knock on someone's door. A woman answered, they kissed and went inside (details capture the gist if not literally what happened) and he went into shock. It was a slap across the face to his Ego, his self identity of being so intuitive and a good reader of people. He didn't even pick up on his own fiancé being bisexual and having a lover on the side. Anyhow, Rose tells his students about his literal mountain-top realization. His students begin to fantasize about having such a profound phenomenal experience for themselves. The expectation created a block. It wasn't until Rose left the picture that any of his students made "final" realizations for themselves. They were constantly comparing themselves to their teacher who was an amazingly eloquent, intuitive, charismatic person. My point is, expectation of what you are going to receive is a barrier. You receive nothing. There is nothing added. Whether you get a nice big pop is dependent on the type of blow to your ego and how big of a spiritual ego you have riding on your shoulders. It also relates to the kind of experiences you are prone to having, psychic phenomena and OBE, or just being Joe blow, sack of meat. Are you content with an "oh" or are you expecting an "OH MY FU.CKING GOD!"? Where are the stories of joe blow, sack of meat, fizzlers? Are they just too boring to notice? The 15years later guy ZD mentioned was pretty encouraging. Here's a question earnest: "what is it like without expectation?" <-- sort of similar to the coming empty concept. Yes, Joe Blow, meat sack's realization that he is God doesn't get passed on due to its ordinariness. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics In order for a story (meme) to pass on, it has to hook the mind into replicating it. The mind is fixated on stories which are interesting, non-ordinary, or promise that some kind of specialness is achieved. The spontaneous realization in Joe Blow is going to release the tension in his mind, bring him existential peace, but not necessarily change his personality, external behavior or bodily manifestation in the world. People might notice that he's "calmed down" or become more content, easier to be around, but that's about it. He may never talk about his insight or share it with anyone. He has no need to.
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