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Post by enigma on Apr 14, 2013 0:22:00 GMT -5
Greetings.. Being open honest and penetrating in a conversation does spin a "story" so to speak, but it's one that is self-contained and laid bare for all to see clearly in a medium such as this. In the instant case, the "story" started with me asking you one question, and in answering it honestly myself. While there's certainly enough wildlife scattered about to support your perception of a "circus", do you find any potential of insult on the part of those who might read what I take as your characterization of the forum in general as a "quagmire of self-interested competitive story-tellers"? -- I honestly feel none btw. Sincerely. As far as the thought that gets applied to going over what was said in the course of a conversation and asking for clarification of a participant, at the very least this distinction applies: it is not unchecked speculation or imagination about the subjective states of the participants. In this sense, it involves far less "minding" than the content generated in the alternative. Now I have to say Bob that this really puzzles me: Now I can see how you might have taken my initial question to you as one about motive, but I can assure you that the motive was not an exploration of motive but rather a question about the quality of your experience. Even in this liberal light however, this only supports reference to motive in the singular, as when I look back at topo's invitation to you: ... it seems to me that it was you who was the one who expressed the initial interest (at least explicitly) in motivation ... I see something completely different from topo', as I've hightlighted. His mention of "motivation" was limited to stating the assumption that an open honest discussion was in line with everyones intent. Hi Laughter: "What a tangled web we weave", when from TMT there is no reprieve.. My question of motive to Top is related to the forum's mantra of 'TMT'.. in all sincerity, i am wondering if Top's motive is to dissect 'Tzu', or to find a way out of the 'minding' he and you seem so attached to. and.. i will ask you, too, what are your motives? There is a fundamental awareness among many members that 'TMT' (too much thinking) is an obstacle to clarity.. so, when i am asked to engage in a process of 'much thinking', i am curious as to the actual motives, to be informed is to be prepared.. but, i am not interested in exploring those motives, and i'm not interested in "how the other person's mind operates", those are the sort of distractions that keeps people in therapy for years.. i am interested in direct experience, clarity, and improving the human experience, collectively and individually.. naturally, the word-gamers will find fault in my resistance to more thinking, so.. i will explain my understanding.. Clarity, and the resulting awareness of what 'is', is a single sincere choice away, plain and simple.. but, helping others to find that choice for themselves is a mortal threat to the word-gamers and dream-weavers, so.. they conspire, consciously or not, to create the illusion that there is no 'choice', no 'chooser', no 'freewill' or perceivers thereof.. What 'is', is liberation from attachment to stories about beliefs, attachment to the self-image of being the best teller of those stories.. liberation from needing to check your perceptions against your beliefs to find out if you can believe what you experience.. Liberation is 'freedom from the known', from beliefs, from attachment and expectation.. Be well.. On the topic of motivation, I think folks are searching for a way to approach you without you drawing your sword, but if your goal is to fight, they'll never find a way.
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Post by Reefs on Apr 14, 2013 0:44:44 GMT -5
Dear Dude/Dudette,
Maybe Jeff Foster can do a "The Still Mind Trap" vid with a warrior bear...
Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize
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Post by enigma on Apr 14, 2013 1:14:23 GMT -5
Dear Dude/Dudette, Maybe Jeff Foster can do a "The Still Mind Trap" vid with a warrior bear... Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize Maybe we should do it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2013 2:19:04 GMT -5
Aye, not so narrowly interpreted there.. what was messaged was: that Jihads, rape, and Newtown are 'expressions' that happen in an 'unlimited' environment, and my question to you is: do you believe they serve a higher purpose? Your question makes no sense to me, this is why it wasn't answered in my first reply. I can easily imagine that you have no idea why it makes no sense to me.
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Post by Reefs on Apr 14, 2013 3:33:45 GMT -5
Dear Dude/Dudette, Maybe Jeff Foster can do a "The Still Mind Trap" vid with a warrior bear... Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize Maybe we should do it. Dear Dude/Dudette, Excellent idea. Here is the original transcript. We only have to change it slightly. Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize
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Post by topology on Apr 14, 2013 8:16:14 GMT -5
Greetings.. I'm not understanding what you said about having a still mind negates the whole process. You call it psycho therapy, but asking people what they mean when there is confusion about what is said or there is ambiguity seems to be more of simply a healthy communication process. How is looking at an interaction and listening to each other's perspectives not compatible with a still mind? Help me understand that. Hi Top: I hope you will forgive the following assessment, but in light of this segment of your post: I can't help but wonder how this level of 'minding' is useful compared to the revelation apparent to the 'still mind'.. it seems we have divergent intentions, you toward more thinking, me toward less.. yes, i get that there are those interested in conditioning me to fit their image of 'right', you among them i suspect.. The 'still mind' is interested in seeing/experiencing, what you are suggesting is engaging mind in what seems to be some form of result oriented therapy.. so, what do you think of our interaction so far? are you understanding how the 'still mind' isn't even engaging in thought 'about' the process you are suggesting? Be well.. This is getting into what you mean by "still" mind. In my experience with my mind there are a few "states" or "conditions" which might be legitimately labelled as a "still mind" but which are very different from each other. 1) still mind - non-agitated mind. This form of still mind has mental activity, but the activity is book-ended with equanimity. The mind becomes active and then returns to inactivity, abiding in a stillness which also permeates the activity. Typically this mind has achieved a world-view that is "good enough" to allow for personal peace in most cases, when going through the daily personal life. However, this mind can still have buckets and categories that it interprets the world through, i.e. still have a personal world view that can get disturbed if the experience strays too far from what the mind has come to accept. This type of still mind can go into tremendous depths of silence and stillness, but it is conditional and contextually still and only when the experience is in congruence with the mind's acceptance. 2) still mind - self-protective mind. Take the non-agitated mind and put it in an experience it is not ready to accept and it becomes agitated, invoking the fight or flight response. The mind either tries to attack the experience to change it back to something acceptable, or it runs away by retreating to a more comfortable experience. This means either leaving the experience or internally walling off the experience to "protect" itself from a perceived threat. Again, the world view and categorizations remain intact, in fact the world-view is being defended and preserved in the face of challenge. On the surface this mind appears to be "more still" because it is coping with agitation to lessen the expression of agitation. 3) still mind - dissolving mind. This form of still mind responds to agitation and challenge of the world view differently. Instead of fighting or fleeing in agitation, there is a continual releasing of tension. The hard categorizations are let go of so that the world can be experienced and seen more fully. Action is more spontaneous and responsive. The mind experiences less and less agitation due to less resistance to what is happening. Acceptance of what is happening does not mean approval. There may be action to correct a situation, but the situation is seen more clearly because there are less interpretive filters, less buckets, less of a world-view. Tzu, I don't know what you mean when you use the term "still mind". Even the non-agitated mind experiences mental clarity when the world-view is not being challenged. But is it truly a still mind? Or is it a self-protective mind which appears to be still because it has learned how to cope with agitation? In many ways, what is thought of as stillness in this sense is a product of active preservation of a world-view and not a letting go of world-views. can you provide a description of how your still mind works in experiences which are agitating and challenge your world view? 0) still mind - fighting the world. This "still mind" has stumbled upon things like Trans Meditation as a means of avoiding the conflict between their world view and their immediate experience. These people are angry all the time, don't know why, and try to use meditation to fix their anger because they are avoiding looking at things which challenge their perception of themselves and the world. The mind is hardly still, but the mind has idolized this idea of stillness and will dupe itself into thinking that it is being still and should be still, as in having no thoughts occur.
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 14, 2013 10:43:52 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Hi Top: I hope you will forgive the following assessment, but in light of this segment of your post: I can't help but wonder how this level of 'minding' is useful compared to the revelation apparent to the 'still mind'.. it seems we have divergent intentions, you toward more thinking, me toward less.. yes, i get that there are those interested in conditioning me to fit their image of 'right', you among them i suspect.. The 'still mind' is interested in seeing/experiencing, what you are suggesting is engaging mind in what seems to be some form of result oriented therapy.. so, what do you think of our interaction so far? are you understanding how the 'still mind' isn't even engaging in thought 'about' the process you are suggesting? Be well.. This is getting into what you mean by "still" mind. In my experience with my mind there are a few "states" or "conditions" which might be legitimately labelled as a "still mind" but which are very different from each other. 1) still mind - non-agitated mind. This form of still mind has mental activity, but the activity is book-ended with equanimity. The mind becomes active and then returns to inactivity, abiding in a stillness which also permeates the activity. Typically this mind has achieved a world-view that is "good enough" to allow for personal peace in most cases, when going through the daily personal life. However, this mind can still have buckets and categories that it interprets the world through, i.e. still have a personal world view that can get disturbed if the experience strays too far from what the mind has come to accept. This type of still mind can go into tremendous depths of silence and stillness, but it is conditional and contextually still and only when the experience is in congruence with the mind's acceptance. 2) still mind - self-protective mind. Take the non-agitated mind and put it in an experience it is not ready to accept and it becomes agitated, invoking the fight or flight response. The mind either tries to attack the experience to change it back to something acceptable, or it runs away by retreating to a more comfortable experience. This means either leaving the experience or internally walling off the experience to "protect" itself from a perceived threat. Again, the world view and categorizations remain intact, in fact the world-view is being defended and preserved in the face of challenge. On the surface this mind appears to be "more still" because it is coping with agitation to lessen the expression of agitation. 3) still mind - dissolving mind. This form of still mind responds to agitation and challenge of the world view differently. Instead of fighting or fleeing in agitation, there is a continual releasing of tension. The hard categorizations are let go of so that the world can be experienced and seen more fully. Action is more spontaneous and responsive. The mind experiences less and less agitation due to less resistance to what is happening. Acceptance of what is happening does not mean approval. There may be action to correct a situation, but the situation is seen more clearly because there are less interpretive filters, less buckets, less of a world-view. Tzu, I don't know what you mean when you use the term "still mind". Even the non-agitated mind experiences mental clarity when the world-view is not being challenged. But is it truly a still mind? Or is it a self-protective mind which appears to be still because it has learned how to cope with agitation? In many ways, what is thought of as stillness in this sense is a product of active preservation of a world-view and not a letting go of world-views. can you provide a description of how your still mind works in experiences which are agitating and challenge your world view? 0) still mind - fighting the world. This "still mind" has stumbled upon things like Trans Meditation as a means of avoiding the conflict between their world view and their immediate experience. These people are angry all the time, don't know why, and try to use meditation to fix their anger because they are avoiding looking at things which challenge their perception of themselves and the world. The mind is hardly still, but the mind has idolized this idea of stillness and will dupe itself into thinking that it is being still and should be still, as in having no thoughts occur. Hi Top: Again, i am awed, and that is the natural response of a 'still mind', awe is not a 'thought', it's a natural feeling that arises.. how it is even possible to contrive so much thinking about something as simple as the awareness of a still mind? Can you step back and examine, with clarity, the mind-structure needed to conceptualize your thinking about the different types of a 'still mind'? "Still Mind".. no active 'thinking' happening.. no mind-chatter happening.. no posturing for a response to stimulus happening.. just paying attention with genuine curiosity.. You asked: " can you provide a description of how your still mind works in experiences which are agitating and challenge your world view?".. there is a natural flow and interconnectedness to existence which is distorted by the active mind's inclination to 'shape' its perceptions to conform to its beliefs/attachments.. the still mind perceives the natural flow and interconnectedness that exists while the agitation and challenges would engage the active mind in the illusions that fuel the agitation and challenges.. in this way, rather than posturing for advantage, the still mind maintains clarity.. so that "when crossing the stream, they step on the stones and not the turtles".. Be well.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Apr 14, 2013 10:47:18 GMT -5
Maybe we should do it. Dear Dude/Dudette, Excellent idea. Here is the original transcript. We only have to change it slightly. Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize It'll be the next viral video!
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Post by topology on Apr 14, 2013 13:55:34 GMT -5
Greetings.. This is getting into what you mean by "still" mind. In my experience with my mind there are a few "states" or "conditions" which might be legitimately labelled as a "still mind" but which are very different from each other. 1) still mind - non-agitated mind. This form of still mind has mental activity, but the activity is book-ended with equanimity. The mind becomes active and then returns to inactivity, abiding in a stillness which also permeates the activity. Typically this mind has achieved a world-view that is "good enough" to allow for personal peace in most cases, when going through the daily personal life. However, this mind can still have buckets and categories that it interprets the world through, i.e. still have a personal world view that can get disturbed if the experience strays too far from what the mind has come to accept. This type of still mind can go into tremendous depths of silence and stillness, but it is conditional and contextually still and only when the experience is in congruence with the mind's acceptance. 2) still mind - self-protective mind. Take the non-agitated mind and put it in an experience it is not ready to accept and it becomes agitated, invoking the fight or flight response. The mind either tries to attack the experience to change it back to something acceptable, or it runs away by retreating to a more comfortable experience. This means either leaving the experience or internally walling off the experience to "protect" itself from a perceived threat. Again, the world view and categorizations remain intact, in fact the world-view is being defended and preserved in the face of challenge. On the surface this mind appears to be "more still" because it is coping with agitation to lessen the expression of agitation. 3) still mind - dissolving mind. This form of still mind responds to agitation and challenge of the world view differently. Instead of fighting or fleeing in agitation, there is a continual releasing of tension. The hard categorizations are let go of so that the world can be experienced and seen more fully. Action is more spontaneous and responsive. The mind experiences less and less agitation due to less resistance to what is happening. Acceptance of what is happening does not mean approval. There may be action to correct a situation, but the situation is seen more clearly because there are less interpretive filters, less buckets, less of a world-view. Tzu, I don't know what you mean when you use the term "still mind". Even the non-agitated mind experiences mental clarity when the world-view is not being challenged. But is it truly a still mind? Or is it a self-protective mind which appears to be still because it has learned how to cope with agitation? In many ways, what is thought of as stillness in this sense is a product of active preservation of a world-view and not a letting go of world-views. can you provide a description of how your still mind works in experiences which are agitating and challenge your world view? 0) still mind - fighting the world. This "still mind" has stumbled upon things like Trans Meditation as a means of avoiding the conflict between their world view and their immediate experience. These people are angry all the time, don't know why, and try to use meditation to fix their anger because they are avoiding looking at things which challenge their perception of themselves and the world. The mind is hardly still, but the mind has idolized this idea of stillness and will dupe itself into thinking that it is being still and should be still, as in having no thoughts occur. Hi Top: Again, i am awed, and that is the natural response of a 'still mind', awe is not a 'thought', it's a natural feeling that arises.. how it is even possible to contrive so much thinking about something as simple as the awareness of a still mind? Can you step back and examine, with clarity, the mind-structure needed to conceptualize your thinking about the different types of a 'still mind'? I'm speaking from direct experience with different states of mind. I was fairly blank while typing, feeling through how to express what I was wanting to convey. And I find that there are many situations where someone might describe themselves as having a still mind. So I am not clear what you mean to say when you have a still mind. It is quite possible that despite what you experience as stillness, there is still a world-view operating which misperceives. "Still Mind".. no active 'thinking' happening.. no mind-chatter happening.. no posturing for a response to stimulus happening.. just paying attention with genuine curiosity.. How is your request for open honest discussion coming from a still mind? It would seem that by asking for open honest discussion that you are asking the mind be active. And you just chided me for engaging you in an open honest discussion. You asked: " can you provide a description of how your still mind works in experiences which are agitating and challenge your world view?".. there is a natural flow and interconnectedness to existence which is distorted by the active mind's inclination to 'shape' its perceptions to conform to its beliefs/attachments.. the still mind perceives the natural flow and interconnectedness that exists while the agitation and challenges would engage the active mind in the illusions that fuel the agitation and challenges.. in this way, rather than posturing for advantage, the still mind maintains clarity.. so that "when crossing the stream, they step on the stones and not the turtles".. Be well.. Be well.. So explain to me again how a still mind is incompatible with a discussion over how different personal perspectives are arrived at? As laughter pointed out, you changed the subject. In your description I am not seeing any reason why your still mind could not engage in the proposed dialogue.
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 14, 2013 14:25:44 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Hi Top: Again, i am awed, and that is the natural response of a 'still mind', awe is not a 'thought', it's a natural feeling that arises.. how it is even possible to contrive so much thinking about something as simple as the awareness of a still mind? Can you step back and examine, with clarity, the mind-structure needed to conceptualize your thinking about the different types of a 'still mind'? I'm speaking from direct experience with different states of mind. I was fairly blank while typing, feeling through how to express what I was wanting to convey. And I find that there are many situations where someone might describe themselves as having a still mind. So I am not clear what you mean to say when you have a still mind. It is quite possible that despite what you experience as stillness, there is still a world-view operating which misperceives. "Still Mind".. no active 'thinking' happening.. no mind-chatter happening.. no posturing for a response to stimulus happening.. just paying attention with genuine curiosity.. How is your request for open honest discussion coming from a still mind? It would seem that by asking for open honest discussion that you are asking the mind be active. And you just chided me for engaging you in an open honest discussion. You asked: " can you provide a description of how your still mind works in experiences which are agitating and challenge your world view?".. there is a natural flow and interconnectedness to existence which is distorted by the active mind's inclination to 'shape' its perceptions to conform to its beliefs/attachments.. the still mind perceives the natural flow and interconnectedness that exists while the agitation and challenges would engage the active mind in the illusions that fuel the agitation and challenges.. in this way, rather than posturing for advantage, the still mind maintains clarity.. so that "when crossing the stream, they step on the stones and not the turtles".. Be well.. Be well.. So explain to me again how a still mind is incompatible with a discussion over how different personal perspectives are arrived at? As laughter pointed out, you changed the subject. In your description I am not seeing any reason why your still mind could not engage in the proposed dialogue. As you suggest as 'still mind' is not 'incompatible' with such a discussion, it simply wouldn't occur, keep in mind that Laughter has his own agenda.. i can observe your request with a still mind, but.. i cannot engage and remain 'still', which is okay, but.. from my perspective, it is just feeding a desire to keep attention distracted away from the actuality that a 'still mind' has no reference or interest in analysis of behavior which vanishes in the 'stillness'.. I am not declining your 'proposed dialogue', we are already well into it.. your motives are revealing themselves little by little.. continue.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2013 14:41:46 GMT -5
i can observe your request with a still mind, but.. ..how do you know it's a request, without the movement to inform you that it is one?
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 14, 2013 15:35:01 GMT -5
Greetings.. Aye, not so narrowly interpreted there.. what was messaged was: that Jihads, rape, and Newtown are 'expressions' that happen in an 'unlimited' environment, and my question to you is: do you believe they serve a higher purpose? Your question makes no sense to me, this is why it wasn't answered in my first reply. I can easily imagine that you have no idea why it makes no sense to me. I know why it makes no sense to you.. the same reason you think like this: LOL.. it is observable as a request because it 'moves' like a request.. i do not need to access the mental filing cabinet to search for meaning, direct experience through a still mind reveals the 'isness' of what is happening.. You are still admiring your self-image rather than looking at what is actually happening.. i doubt that you have even considered the question, rather you have postured a way to demonstrate your beliefs.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Apr 14, 2013 16:09:26 GMT -5
Greetings.. Your question makes no sense to me, this is why it wasn't answered in my first reply. I can easily imagine that you have no idea why it makes no sense to me. I know why it makes no sense to you.. the same reason you think like this: LOL.. it is observable as a request because it 'moves' like a request.. i do not need to access the mental filing cabinet to search for meaning, direct experience through a still mind reveals the 'isness' of what is happening.. You are still admiring your self-image rather than looking at what is actually happening.. i doubt that you have even considered the question, rather you have postured a way to demonstrate your beliefs.. Be well.. You keep telling people to look at what's actually happening, and declare your 'still mind' perspective of what's actually happening while strategically avoiding a discussion about what's actually happening. To discuss it openly and honestly would be minding and TMT'ing to you. That's quite a safe approach you've taken.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2013 16:25:48 GMT -5
Greetings.. I know why it makes no sense to you.. the same reason you think like this: LOL.. it is observable as a request because it 'moves' like a request.. i do not need to access the mental filing cabinet to search for meaning, direct experience through a still mind reveals the 'isness' of what is happening.. You are still admiring your self-image rather than looking at what is actually happening.. i doubt that you have even considered the question, rather you have postured a way to demonstrate your beliefs.. Be well.. You keep telling people to look at what's actually happening, and declare your 'still mind' perspective of what's actually happening while strategically avoiding a discussion about what's actually happening. To discuss it openly and honestly would be minding and TMT'ing to you. That's quite a safe approach you've taken. It's safe and, controlled. I can't really be asked with his contradictions that's not my bag. It's unsettling that he, has no interest in them and this is what I was referring to when I initially opened the posts to him. As in, writing is a healthy way to look at thought through an obtuse angle. I'm at the conclusion that he has mistaken his anger for courage. C'est la vie... sometimes.
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 14, 2013 16:29:10 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. I know why it makes no sense to you.. the same reason you think like this: LOL.. it is observable as a request because it 'moves' like a request.. i do not need to access the mental filing cabinet to search for meaning, direct experience through a still mind reveals the 'isness' of what is happening.. You are still admiring your self-image rather than looking at what is actually happening.. i doubt that you have even considered the question, rather you have postured a way to demonstrate your beliefs.. Be well.. You keep telling people to look at what's actually happening, and declare your 'still mind' perspective of what's actually happening while strategically avoiding a discussion about what's actually happening. To discuss it openly and honestly would be minding and TMT'ing to you. That's quite a safe approach you've taken. I figured you'd be around.. so, ready to have an open honest direct respectful discussion, yet? or, will you snipe at that concept while avoiding it yourself? Be well..
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