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Post by tathagata on Sept 21, 2011 21:52:19 GMT -5
As an aside TRF...."nothing" is imaginable LOL....imagine something unimaginable.
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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2011 22:16:34 GMT -5
I read it again. Strangely, I heard the same thing. I'm saying the experience is a mind state. I'm asking you what the significance is of this mind state. If what you mean by a mind state as being somewhat like knowledge of 'something' you may have a point. But what is the experience or knowledge of 'nothing'? The significance of any experience is our mere presence, nothing else. The content of any experience is simply an external manifestation of that central Presence. What would be the external manifestation of 'nothing'? I'm not calling a mind state knowledge. The experience of 'nothing' is a mind state. All experiences are mind states. One does not have an experience of 'no self' or 'no mind' since it is self/mind that is experiencing. The egoic state is a mind state. Bliss is a mind state. Somebody is having the experience of 'nothing' and can teach you to have that experience too. Does anything smell bad about that? Possibly the difficulty here is the idea that there is something wrong with experience as it is, and so somehow we have to have a 'special' experience, and then we're enlightened or sumthin. It's true that practices will make it possible to experience all sorts of woo woo mind states. An endless variety. Hallucinogenics are probly more effortless. Hehe. My question is, so what?
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Post by therealfake on Sept 21, 2011 23:05:34 GMT -5
You can have the experience of bliss, because you have an idea of bliss...
So there is an association between what is experienced and what is known about that experience.
You cannot experience knee pain if you don't know what a knee is...heh
It's significant for me to see the difference between the experience of the conceptual mind and the experience of the non conceptual mind or nothing.
Is that a special experience or the difference between seeing what is real and what is not...
Peace
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Post by tathagata on Sept 21, 2011 23:16:58 GMT -5
If what you mean by a mind state as being somewhat like knowledge of 'something' you may have a point. But what is the experience or knowledge of 'nothing'? The significance of any experience is our mere presence, nothing else. The content of any experience is simply an external manifestation of that central Presence. What would be the external manifestation of 'nothing'? I'm not calling a mind state knowledge. The experience of 'nothing' is a mind state. All experiences are mind states. One does not have an experience of 'no self' or 'no mind' since it is self/mind that is experiencing. The egoic state is a mind state. Bliss is a mind state. Somebody is having the experience of 'nothing' and can teach you to have that experience too. Does anything smell bad about that? Possibly the difficulty here is the idea that there is something wrong with experience as it is, and so somehow we have to have a 'special' experience, and then we're enlightened or sumthin. It's true that practices will make it possible to experience all sorts of woo woo mind states. An endless variety. Hallucinogenics are probly more effortless. Hehe. My question is, so what? A very powerful "Straw Man" argument LOL...but it has nothing to do with this technique, only your perception of the technique....techniques are for doing not for talking LOL You just can't help yourself I think LOL...everytime a practice is suggested that stops mind and transcends mind you can't help but to categorize it, define it, then dismiss it LOL...no practice other than noticing is a useful practice Lmao....but noticing is something the mind can do endlessly without ever stopping and moving beyond the mind and I amness into Stillness LOL...anything that might take you beyond mind you call woo woo LOL.... In any case, be careful TRF....he is very clever at drawing you into a debate that has nothing to do with the point of focus in the original conversation LOL...one has to wonder why you consistantly debate things that go beyond mind by inventing an idea about something and then arguing the point enigma lol....your mind grasps at any life preserver it can find when a technique for going beyond mind is mentioned lol...you can't help yourself...its like an impulsion you can't resist...not only do you make an argument to yourself to avoid a technique that stops and transcends mind, you argue against the whole world trying it lol...in fact, I have never seen you support any technique other than the one you think you invented lol....I wonder, how do you feel about the techniques Ramana or Niz recommended?
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Post by therealfake on Sept 21, 2011 23:27:55 GMT -5
Straw men aren't suppose to have brains, re the Wizard of Oz...
But I'm sure Enigma would say that brains are just an appearance anyway...lol
Gotta Love him, and I do...
Peace
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Post by zendancer on Sept 21, 2011 23:40:21 GMT -5
Enda's question and this thread suggest some koans:
A woman who had never practiced any form of meditation suddenly woke up and became enlightened. A man who diligently practiced meditation every day for forty years never woke up. Why did the woman wake up but not the man?
A woman tried a wide variety of different meditation methods (she dug lots of shallow holes) and one day woke up. A man practiced one specific meditation method for forty years (he dug one deep hole), but never woke up. Why did the woman wake up but not the man?
If one revisits the conversation between Joshu and Nansen, posted by Mr. T., (one of my all-time favorites) it deals with the same issue. Joshu became enlightened after hearing Nansen's words. What did Joshu attain? How did he attain it?
There is another Zen story about a monk who was sitting in meditation. A master asked him what he was doing. The monk replied, "I'm practicing to become a Buddha." The master sat down and began rubbing on a stone. The monk asked him what he was doing. The master said, "I'm polishing this stone to turn it into a diamond." The monk replied, "Master, no matter how much you polish that stone, it will never turn into a diamond.' The Master said, "In the same way, no matter how much you practice you can't practice your way to Buddhahood."
One teacher tells students to practice. Another teacher tells students that practice is an illusion. Which teacher is correct? If you name either teacher, you will miss the mark.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 21, 2011 23:41:23 GMT -5
Me too TRF
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Post by therealfake on Sept 21, 2011 23:54:35 GMT -5
Enda's question and this thread suggest some koans: A woman who had never practiced any form of meditation suddenly woke up and became enlightened. A man who diligently practiced meditation every day for forty years never woke up. Why did the woman wake up but not the man? A woman tried a wide variety of different meditation methods (she dug lots of shallow holes) and one day woke up. A man practiced one specific meditation method for forty years (he dug one deep hole), but never woke up. Why did the woman wake up but not the man? If one revisits the conversation between Joshu and Nansen, posted by Mr. T., (one of my all-time favorites) it deals with the same issue. Joshu became enlightened after hearing Nansen's words. What did Joshu attain? How did he attain it? There is another Zen story about a monk who was sitting in meditation. A master asked him what he was doing. The monk replied, "I'm practicing to become a Buddha." The master sat down and began rubbing on a stone. The monk asked him what he was doing. The master said, "I'm polishing this stone to turn it into a diamond." The monk replied, "Master, no matter how much you polish that stone, it will never turn into a diamond.' The Master said, "In the same way, no matter how much you practice you can't practice your way to Buddhahood." One teacher tells students to practice. Another teacher tells students that practice is an illusion. Which teacher is correct? If you name either teacher, you will miss the mark. Like you said before while enjoying your coffee at McDonalds... Let it all go... Those words touched my heart And the thought of a conceptual hash brown..lol Love and Peace Bro
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 0:07:18 GMT -5
On another subject...have you guys noticed the conspicouos absence of Acewall today?
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Post by jasonl on Sept 22, 2011 0:13:44 GMT -5
I think techniques and practices can be helpful to the individual, maybe even necessary for some time? Even noticing is itself a mental practice as long as delusion is still permeating the mind. It can be helpful to notice the nature of certain thoughts, like delusional unconscious projection(seeing something in someone else which is unconsciously in oneself, often manifesting as judgment, or a mental tendency to separate the “individual” from the “other” in some way). Only the mind itself can “notice” the nature of a thought, and that comes after the thought happened through a mental labeling process which tends to increase in efficiency as delusion is weeded out. Then there is also the mind created idea that “something” can notice “something else”, which can facilitate the process of consciousness becoming conscious of unconsciousness, which is more of a practiceless practice than anything else. Transcendence doesnt actually happen "in time". Dat's what makes it transcendence. Unconscious mind only “wants to become conscious” when there is no other choice, otherwise the unconscious tendency wouldn't be in place in the first place. Why weed out unconsciousness when its far easier to believe you are enlightened, even if unconsciously, hehe: surface level protective mechanics which dont do anything to get to the "heart of the matter" . I advocate understanding mental mechanics which keep delusion in place in the name of self interest as opposed to self exposition, things like unconscious projection, mentioned above, saying things to appear a certain way, lying about one’s story of separate self to protect the emotional body, stuff like this. Although, don’t get me wrong, Im not saying theres anything wrong with lying. I just worked for a month in a foreign country without a visa LOL. Rules are made to be broken. If you get caught, then you’re the one f.uckin up. But, the willingness to “catch oneself” is something worth cultivating. Learn your own “tells”, and there won’t be much need for anyone else in this game. Understanding is something the mind can do, I spose, but as far as unconsciousness goes, the “subject matter for understanding” is something the mind not only doesn’t know, but already is geared up to “not want to understand”. When this not wanting to understand program gets launched, the self evident truth that “there is nothing you need to understand to be what you already are” gets projected to protect the delusional mind from being exposed. Mind state sales advertised through Guru fairy tales. No wonder business is booming. Mind doesn’t like having its delusions exposed, and this isn’t surprising. Whether or not other combative programs get launched with this absolute jargon being spewed from a delusional relative perspective varies from mind to mind. None of it’s actually a problem, but it is good to notice if the intention/willingness is present to realize truth, or just make believe. Of course intention to realize truth is a bit of a misnomer, but from what I, the mind meaning, notice, is that intention has a way of being reflected back through the mirror of the universe. I think we all can have a sense of what I’m pointing to here. If we are dishonest with ourselves, how can we expect cooperation? Don’t forget to project, now. I remember to project on a daily basis. All experience is a mental projection, and while nothing is actually changing, movement through the human experience is facilitated by the ability to remember and project. If you’re a good forum poster, my guess is you remember to project your ass onto these forums almost every day, which doesn’t imply that you are your mind, or even that there is a mind, but that certain thought mechanics are manifesting which create your own unique experience which doesnt actually belong to anybody(or actually even exist...shhhhhh!!). Nobody actually controls that, and only somebody would want to.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 0:44:59 GMT -5
Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: `The flag is moving.'
The other said: `The wind is moving.'
The sixth patriach happened to be passing by. He told them: `Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving
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Post by acewall on Sept 22, 2011 1:28:51 GMT -5
Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: `The flag is moving.' The other said: `The wind is moving.' The sixth patriach happened to be passing by. He told them: `Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving 'When the kundalini moves, who needs a jetplane to fly to America?' ~NKB
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 1:33:30 GMT -5
When this not wanting to understand program gets launched, the self evident truth that “there is nothing you need to understand to be what you already are” gets projected to protect the delusional mind from being exposed. “there is nothing you need to understand or do to be what you already are" this statement, or its variations, are thrown around alot...and while its an absolutely true statement, it is also a very very useful tool for the mind to protect itself from losing its supreme place in as the identification of self...the mind is a tool for survival and as such it often fights for its own survival...in the seeker club it will often use this very true statement to protect it's survival: “there is nothing you need to understand or do to be what you already are" So how does one know if they are really entering this statement in the fullness of their true self, or if this statement is a tool used by the mind to delude itself for survival as the supreme aspect of self? A good indicator is this...are you using the statement and belief as a justification to reject ANYTHING?
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 1:35:06 GMT -5
Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: `The flag is moving.' The other said: `The wind is moving.' The sixth patriach happened to be passing by. He told them: `Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving 'When the kundalini moves, who needs a jetplane to fly to America?' ~NKB haha, welcome to visit anytime my friend
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Post by zendancer on Sept 22, 2011 6:47:31 GMT -5
Behind the admonition to practice usually lies the idea that there is someone capable of practicing--that there is someone who can do something in order to experience something or realize something. When it is clearly seen that there is no separate doer who can do anything, and that everything is being done by what Suzanne Segal calls "the Vastness," what then? What can be done when it is seen that any effort to do anything is a movement in the wrong direction and NOT doing anything is to live like a vegetable? This is the koan that paralyzed Joshu's mind and helped him to see the truth.
Little children do not try to wake up because they don't imagine that they are separate entities that need to wake up. This is one reason why Jesus said, "To enter the kingdom of God one must become like a little child." (Of course he made a big mistake as soon as he opened his mouth. LOL)
What is one to do? Go sip some coffee. That's where the pearly gates are.
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