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Post by Portto on Sept 20, 2011 6:00:39 GMT -5
I dont know if I am or arent confused. And Im not even sure about that. Now thats proper confusion hehe. Yes, that is proper confusion! I would say existence appears in us. We are what the idea of existence appears in.
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Post by andrew on Sept 20, 2011 7:46:16 GMT -5
I dont know if I am or arent confused. And Im not even sure about that. Now thats proper confusion hehe. Yes, that is proper confusion! I would say existence appears in us. We are what the idea of existence appears in. I like the sentiment of what you said there a little more than language you used. I resonate with the idea of expressions of consciousness appearing in awareness (and I kind of think that that is what you are saying in different words) but the idea of existence appearing in 'us' doesnt quite sit well with me because the very idea of 'us' (or 'we') implies individuals. We then have to ask what these individuals are that existence is appearing in. Do you get what Im saying? When it comes to the idea of 'us' I would say that we are both absolute and relative beings. If we exist, its because we are existence itself.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 20, 2011 8:16:11 GMT -5
I'm beginning to appreciate more fully why ZM Seung Sahn repeatedly and incessantly said to his students, "Put it all down." LOL. I never realized how much I loved that guy til a few years after he died.
That McDonald's coffee I'm drinking sure does taste good this morning. Hope everyone has great day!
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enda
New Member
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Post by enda on Sept 20, 2011 9:07:04 GMT -5
Max please be careful of this kind of thing....if you only engage in this kind of intellectual pursuit without doing the practice to directly experience it for yourself you run the risk of being the victim of your own success...becuase if you focus exclusively on intellectually mastering this you will succeed....but you may succeed at the expense of directly experiencing it brother. I agree that conceptual understanding is not enough, and I'm sure Max realizes that, but directly experiencing it is also not enough. It must be seen/realized, and these realizations usually occur with a mental focus of contemplation. I have not looked in detail at all the many replies on this thread, but I would have expected a fairly prompt response to the suggestion by Tathagata that "doing the practice" can result in direct experience. I have always thought from what I have seen/read that the key here is the acceptance that there is no practice, no process that can directly bring about this final realisation. I thought the best result one can hope for from such processes ( besides some psychological benefits) is an acceptance that no process works??
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Post by tathagata on Sept 20, 2011 9:36:50 GMT -5
I agree that conceptual understanding is not enough, and I'm sure Max realizes that, but directly experiencing it is also not enough. It must be seen/realized, and these realizations usually occur with a mental focus of contemplation. I have not looked in detail at all the many replies on this thread, but I would have expected a fairly prompt response to the suggestion by Tathagata that "doing the practice" can result in direct experience. I have always thought from what I have seen/read that the key here is the acceptance that there is no practice, no process that can directly bring about this final realisation. I thought the best result one can hope for from such processes ( besides some psychological benefits) is an acceptance that no process works?? Enda at the time we were talking about becoming aware of ones essential, or root I Amness/awareness.....there are many many practices that can help with this, through a perfectly timed use of a story Max reminded himself of a technique that showed him his I amness, without effort he used the technique and both realized and experienced a key trueth about his nature...but to move beyond I Amness to your true nature beyond self there is no technique, only a letting go, or a surrender.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 20, 2011 9:47:57 GMT -5
Well hello enda, nice shot out of the blue that was. I concur with your sentiment, that there is nothing one can "do", that in fact "doing less" is likely a better course. I can't remember the quote exactly, but Richard Rose said something like, 'Enlightenment is an accident, the best you can do is put yourself in a position of being accident-prone'. That said, meditation and thought experiments are probably more helpful than swilling beer, eating cheetos, and watching tv all day. The key there is putting yourself in a position to be accident prone...that's were appropriet practices can be helpful. For example...there is a technique...imagine something unimaginable....when you do this your mind stops moving, for a moment you are in unmoving I amness, there is no movement Becuase the mind cannot imagine something unimaginable, so it stops and in the space of that stopping you are in still I amness....from there you can "let go" of, or surrender the I amness and experience the true nature of no experiencer.
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Post by therealfake on Sept 20, 2011 9:50:21 GMT -5
I'm beginning to appreciate more fully why ZM Seung Sahn repeatedly and incessantly said to his students, "Put it all down." LOL. I never realized how much I loved that guy til a few years after he died. That McDonald's coffee I'm drinking sure does taste good this morning. Hope everyone has great day! Hey ZD, What no intellectualizing ham and egg biscuit, with a side of conceptualized hash browns? Contextually your getting too Zen like for me Z...heh And I like it. Have a great day as well
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Post by tathagata on Sept 20, 2011 10:12:27 GMT -5
Enlightenment can happen spontaniously, or by clearing the rust from the heart as the Sufi say....for me, I very conciously went inward inward inward by observing the observer of the observer ad infinatum...I looked inside and saw that there was really nothing but an observer in there, then I kept looking and looking to see where the observer came from, what was the source of this observing, eventually I got to a place inside where there was only a still silent witness, I watched conciously how that witness manifested my identity and my enviornment by "selecting" what it would witness...but then i kept in the pure witnessing to see where it came from and came to a kind of dead end...pure I amness/awareness that i could not get past or beyond, but my curiosity was so intense that it was not enough, I knew there must be something at its root but could not observe anything deeper...Finally it occured to me that I had to let go of the observer, the the still witnesser that was at the center of my individual self would need to be let go...so even though I was scared, I let it go and with it the self was no more...
So for me it wasn't spontanious....it was through practice, and then surrender...
I guess the reason I am a proponent of proper practices is that:
1. Practices were useful to me in this and as a result of my personal experience I recomend them, and...
2. If everyone and everything has the budha nature, and it does, everyone can uncover it and move beyond the self, if this could only happen spontaniously or by accident this implies that god, or the stillness, or whatever word you want to use, is somehow selecting a "special chosen few" to be enlightened in a special chosen time in their life cycles...to me enlightenment is the most ordinary thing in the world, and is available to everyone that wants to uncover what is there already...and practices that are appropriete to you can help in this...practices that produce mental or psychological states that add to your mental movement may not be appropriete for you, practices that uncover and undo what is there can be appropriete and useful, for each person there are techniques that help and techniques that don't help...no one size fits all....
The movement of mind likes to perpetuate itself with more movement, from one extreme to the other...its hard for Minding to get the idea of effortless practice...it likes to say either no practice at all is good, or intense practice with lots of effort and struggle is good, but these are extremes, the mind likes extremes...the trueth is in the middle....effortless practice is good.
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Post by onehandclapping on Sept 20, 2011 10:37:24 GMT -5
I'm beginning to appreciate more fully why ZM Seung Sahn repeatedly and incessantly said to his students, "Put it all down." LOL. I never realized how much I loved that guy til a few years after he died. That McDonald's coffee I'm drinking sure does taste good this morning. Hope everyone has great day! Hey Zen take a stab at my questions about projections and actual above here when you get a chance. I'd like to hear your take on that. Also Ace, if you are reading I'd love your take too. Just to see if it's different where the water spins backwards. Mmmm, the Starbucks green tea is filling my taste buds with that oh so familiar, wonderful taste. Although it needs another scoop of stevia. Hahaha. Bonzai!!!!
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Post by ernie on Sept 20, 2011 13:15:34 GMT -5
My significant other was shown this quote twice in the last hour when she reminded me about cooking dinner after losing the coin flip. I know she's not buying it. ;D So maybe there won't be a contextual dinner tonight? ;D Okay, okay, that's pretty funny, and I give it an "8" on the off the cuff comedic scale. ;D However, had you stayed in character for a bit longer, and said, "Looks like no contextual soup for you, ernie," I would have given it a "10"!! ;D
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Post by zendancer on Sept 20, 2011 13:31:17 GMT -5
I'm beginning to appreciate more fully why ZM Seung Sahn repeatedly and incessantly said to his students, "Put it all down." LOL. I never realized how much I loved that guy til a few years after he died. That McDonald's coffee I'm drinking sure does taste good this morning. Hope everyone has great day! Hey ZD, What no intellectualizing ham and egg biscuit, with a side of conceptualized hash browns? Contextually your getting too Zen like for me Z...heh And I like it. Have a great day as well Hmmmmm......conceptualized hash browns? Sounds like a tasty dish. I'll bet they're also low in cholesterol. LOL
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Post by tathagata on Sept 20, 2011 15:23:04 GMT -5
I recently discovered the miracle of pleasure that is Boba Tea LOL....holy crap that stuffs good...screw nirvana, give me Boba Tea LOL....although, Boba Tea and 77 virgins might be nice ;D
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Post by zendancer on Sept 20, 2011 16:53:15 GMT -5
I'm beginning to appreciate more fully why ZM Seung Sahn repeatedly and incessantly said to his students, "Put it all down." LOL. I never realized how much I loved that guy til a few years after he died. That McDonald's coffee I'm drinking sure does taste good this morning. Hope everyone has great day! Hey Zen take a stab at my questions about projections and actual above here when you get a chance. I'd like to hear your take on that. Also Ace, if you are reading I'd love your take too. Just to see if it's different where the water spins backwards. Mmmm, the Starbucks green tea is filling my taste buds with that oh so familiar, wonderful taste. Although it needs another scoop of stevia. Hahaha. Bonzai!!!! 1HC: Your question about projection is actually a pretty good koan. However, if someone answers that question for you, it won't have any power. If you find the answer yourself, it will eliminate a particular pattern of thought and might even have a strong side effect. You already know the answer to the question, but you may have to contemplate it for a while in order to resolve it. Please dig into that one.
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Post by enigma on Sept 20, 2011 17:53:58 GMT -5
I'm beginning to appreciate more fully why ZM Seung Sahn repeatedly and incessantly said to his students, "Put it all down." LOL. I never realized how much I loved that guy til a few years after he died. That McDonald's coffee I'm drinking sure does taste good this morning. Hope everyone has great day! Yes, pull it all down, for God's sake!. Hehe. Or as I like to say, squish it into a little greasy spot.
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Post by enigma on Sept 20, 2011 18:09:38 GMT -5
The movement of mind likes to perpetuate itself with more movement, from one extreme to the other...its hard for Minding to get the idea of effortless practice...it likes to say either no "practice at all is good, or intense practice with lots of effort and struggle is good, but these are extremes, the mind likes extremes...the trueth is in the middle....effortless practice is good."
Yes, effortless practice. (AKA noticing) What you describe is noticing. To the extent that it appeared to be an effort within a technique and that there was some sort of self that surrendered itself, this is a story that mind wrote about noticing.
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