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Post by Peter on Dec 8, 2008 9:50:28 GMT -5
Are you saying that Hitler and the occult practitioners in the Third Reich thought of their motives as being Evil? I really doubt that anyone wakes up in the morning and decides to do something that they consider to be Evil. Selfish yes, but Evil, no. Will Smith agrees with me on this one, so I must be right.  Since "The forces and principles used for either right or left hand are one" and everyone believes they're doing the "right" thing (however misguided), then that suggests that determining if anyone is on the right or left path is largely a matter of hind-sight and the opinions of 3rd Parties. History is written by the winners. Last Try: Can you give an example of some outcome that you've 'intended' in your practicing of sorcery which has come about? The reason that I've asked this question three times now, is because you said:Thanks, Peter |
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Post by commiejesus on Dec 8, 2008 13:17:43 GMT -5
> Are you saying that Hitler and the occult practitioners in the Third Reich thought of their motives as being Evil?Peter, When(where) did I say that? Who cares what they thought?
I do not have time to belabor this thread anymore. I suggest do a little research and make up your own mind.Forgive me for being blunt but whether you agree or not is no concert of mine. I m not here to convert. Obviously, Hitler's, his occult guru and inner circle did not acknowledge that they were doing evil. The consequence of their actions speaks volumes thou. It is all history. Selfish or Evil - you are nitpicking, it is "dark".
regardless what label you stick on itThis is all I have to say about this. Sorry..... Are you saying that Hitler and the occult practitioners in the Third Reich thought of their motives as being Evil? I really doubt that anyone wakes up in the morning and decides to do something that they consider to be Evil. Selfish yes, but Evil, no. Will Smith agrees with me on this one, so I must be right. Since "The forces and principles used for either right or left hand are one" and everyone believes they're doing the "right" thing (however misguided), then that suggests that determining if anyone is on the right or left path is largely a matter of hind-sight and the opinions of 3rd Parties. History is written by the winners. Last Try: Can you give an example of some outcome that you've 'intended' in your practicing of sorcery which has come about? The reason that I've asked this question three times now, is because you said:Thanks, Peter |
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Post by Peter on Dec 9, 2008 14:58:16 GMT -5
Hi CJ - you've started trying to shut down discussions. This one and also yesterday in the Redrum thread you said "I want to put this debate to rest". If it's just a question of not having time to contribute, then can I suggest that you don't need to feel obliged to respond so quickly? I don't mind waiting a week to continue a discussion - these postings aren't going anywhere, and it's also possible for them to continue without your input. Or is there something else going on with you in that you're perhaps not "getting what you want" from them? The benefits of Right Hand Sorcery was something you yourself brought up in response to what LM and I had written at the top of this forum. I'm surprised that you're now becoming frustrated that it continues to be discussed - hey, it's a new thing for me, I'm interested! Who cares what they thought? Well an intimate point of the law of Karma is that your intention plays a huge part in the Karmic burden that's generated. I was under the impression that in any magic working, your intention is key? Obviously, Hitler, his occult guru and inner circle did not acknowledge that they were doing evil Right, exactly. So we're agreeing that no one (not even Hitler) has the intention to do evil. And since your definition of the Left Hand Path is that it is the evil path, then what we apparently end up with is all practitioners claiming to be on the Right Hand path, pointing their fingers at any groups they're in conflict with, claiming that they're Left Hand Path. Reminds me of American foreign policy. The distinction you made in another thread was helpful - that only by being selfless that we can be sure of being on the right path, but we've also agreed with Fear that most people's actions are prompted by ultimately selfish motives most of the time, often without realising it. So when someone say's they're on the Right Hand Path, the only way to tell if they're actually on that path or if they are mistaken, is to ask them what it is they've actually been doing, and why. You said "these things are empowering to a great deal"...is enjoying the experience of power that comes with practicing sorcery part of your motivation, or am I giving your words the wrong context here? Edit: Actually, following this line of though, a selfless path would be one that actively seeks to develop compassion for others. So looking for a school that stresses both Knowledge and Compassion equally, Buddhism is the only one that I've yet come across. |
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Post by commiejesus on Dec 10, 2008 0:43:49 GMT -5
There is not much I can add to this thread. That's what I meant. Others can continue and debate, so I am not trying "shut down" anything, more like saying that - IMHO there is nothing much else to be said. We are beating a "dead horse" if we continue. As for sorcery. It can mean a number of things to those who dabble into it; 1) quest for power, money, status 2) quest for assurance that we are not being tricked in our mind and experience illusions. (at one initiation the guru gives an amulet to the disciple as he conjures it out of thin air - my former-teacher has a silver Buddha he got and it dropped from the ceiling out of the thin air....) 3) Intellectual quest to know how things operate. Out of this - those who practice for reason #1 are not benefiting from it in a way it can work for you. I would go as far as saying they are "left -hand" practitioners. Hitler was surely one, no doubt. Hi CJ - you've started trying to shut down discussions. This one and also yesterday in the Redrum thread you said "I want to put this debate to rest". If it's just a question of not having time to contribute, then can I suggest that you don't need to feel obliged to respond so quickly? I don't mind waiting a week to continue a discussion - these postings aren't going anywhere, and it's also possible for them to continue without your input. Or is there something else going on with you in that you're perhaps not "getting what you want" from them? The benefits of Right Hand Sorcery was something you yourself brought up in response to what LM and I had written at the top of this forum. I'm surprised that you're now becoming frustrated that it continues to be discussed - hey, it's a new thing for me, I'm interested! Who cares what they thought? Well an intimate point of the law of Karma is that your intention plays a huge part in the Karmic burden that's generated. I was under the impression that in any magic working, your intention is key? Obviously, Hitler, his occult guru and inner circle did not acknowledge that they were doing evil Right, exactly. So we're agreeing that no one (not even Hitler) has the intention to do evil. And since your definition of the Left Hand Path is that it is the evil path, then what we apparently end up with is all practitioners claiming to be on the Right Hand path, pointing their fingers at any groups they're in conflict with, claiming that they're Left Hand Path. Reminds me of American foreign policy. The distinction you made in another thread was helpful - that only by being selfless that we can be sure of being on the right path, but we've also agreed with Fear that most people's actions are prompted by ultimately selfish motives most of the time, often without realising it. So when someone say's they're on the Right Hand Path, the only way to tell if they're actually on that path or if they are mistaken, is to ask them what it is they've actually been doing, and why. You said "these things are empowering to a great deal"...is enjoying the experience of power that comes with practicing sorcery part of your motivation, or am I giving your words the wrong context here? Edit: Actually, following this line of though, a selfless path would be one that actively seeks to develop compassion for others. So looking for a school that stresses both Knowledge and Compassion equally, Buddhism is the only one that I've yet come across. |
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Post by Peter on Dec 10, 2008 6:34:33 GMT -5
Well you might feel like you're flogging a dead horse Andras, but I feel like I'm making progress. A number of things have become clear to me in the past couple of days, not just about this issue but about choice and other polarizations (eg STO/STS of Ra and Long/Short Paths of alchemy) and the true alignment of various groups that I come into contact with. So I appreciate your input, even if you're not getting much out of it - perhaps you could see it as pro bono publico work? And Hey - you were complaining about your frustration with the spiritual view that 'All is One'. You should be happy I'm so interested in separating out my Left from my Right! As for sorcery. It can mean a number of things to those who dabble into it; 1) quest for power, money, status 2) quest for assurance that we are not being tricked in our mind and experience illusions. (at one initiation the guru gives an amulet to the disciple as he conjures it out of thin air - my former-teacher has a silver Buddha he got and it dropped from the ceiling out of the thin air....) 3) Intellectual quest to know how things operate. We agreed in another thread that work must be Selfless in order to remain uncorrupted. And yet all three of these reasons for engaging in sorcery are to gain something for the self. Compassion is nowhere to be seen! The obvious conclusion to draw is that all Sorcery is Left Hand Path, and that since - as you say - Hitler is an example of the Left Hand Path "gone awry", perhaps sorcerers following reasons 2 and 3 are examples of Left Hand Path being used successfully? You may call this Nitpicking, I prefer to see it as getting my basic definitions sorted out before moving forward. Cheers, Peter |
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Post by commiejesus on Dec 10, 2008 10:53:28 GMT -5
Peter, I am sorry for being "testy". I was just overwhelmed and tired... It is very admirable for you too seek the beneficial value of "discerning" as it will serve you well later. People, unwittingly get into the "dark side" as some groups masquerade as "workers of the light", while they do nothing but give disinformation and falsehoods. It is all over and we should all be careful..... Well you might feel like you're flogging a dead horse Andras, but I feel like I'm making progress. A number of things have become clear to me in the past couple of days, not just about this issue but about choice and other polarizations (eg STO/STS of Ra and Long/Short Paths of alchemy) and the true alignment of various groups that I come into contact with. So I appreciate your input, even if you're not getting much out of it - perhaps you could see it as pro bono publico work? And Hey - you were complaining about your frustration with the spiritual view that 'All is One'. You should be happy I'm so interested in separating out my Left from my Right! As for sorcery. It can mean a number of things to those who dabble into it; 1) quest for power, money, status 2) quest for assurance that we are not being tricked in our mind and experience illusions. (at one initiation the guru gives an amulet to the disciple as he conjures it out of thin air - my former-teacher has a silver Buddha he got and it dropped from the ceiling out of the thin air....) 3) Intellectual quest to know how things operate. We agreed in another thread that work must be Selfless in order to remain uncorrupted. And yet all three of these reasons for engaging in sorcery are to gain something for the self. Compassion is nowhere to be seen! The obvious conclusion to draw is that all Sorcery is Left Hand Path, and that since - as you say - Hitler is an example of the Left Hand Path "gone awry", perhaps sorcerers following reasons 2 and 3 are examples of Left Hand Path being used successfully? You may call this Nitpicking, I prefer to see it as getting my basic definitions sorted out before moving forward. Cheers, Peter |
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