enda
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Post by enda on May 17, 2010 20:20:21 GMT -5
This forum is a wonderful source of pertinent questions and insightful answers. Thoroughly enjoyable, and very helpful. I would like to express my gratitude to all the posters, particularly those who post frequently, and are clearly giving a lot of their personal time to helping others (and hopefully themselves) through this board. Thank you. Many questions have been put that might be described as being dualistic in nature, and generally the replies come from the non-dualistic perspective. This is understandable, the objective is to help people wake up, so when people ask questions like what happens after death they are told "who dies?", "there isn't anyone to die", "you were never born you can never die", and answers of that nature. All very laudable non-dualistic replies that may contribute to the questioner's awakening.
My concern is for the many (including myself!) who have not awakened, and possibly never will. Talk of meaninglessness and such could drive such people to despair. Whether it's saying that there's no heaven, no karma, no reincarnation or whatever, all this is true in the reality of non-duality but the question that remains unclear to me and seems, again to me, to not be addressed in the replies, is whether all the above concepts, heaven etc., are real "within the dream" - Are they experienced by the dreamer? For example, does a Christian dreamer experience within the dream an encounter with "God" after the death of the body/mind? Do individual dreamers experience a sense of continuity between physical lives? Does the individual dreamer continue to dream life after life until finally awakening? If the I that I believe I am dies without "waking up" what becomes of it, of me? If as Tony Parsons says, there is nothing after death, just oneness why wait? Why not just check out now and end the illusory suffering of this illusory physical existence? Go straight to the oneness? Perhaps to some of you these kind of queries show that I just don't get it, and that's fair enough. A simple answer might be to say - Just wake up and all will be revealed. But what if that awakening does not happen?
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Post by eputkonen on May 17, 2010 20:28:39 GMT -5
But what if that awakening does not happen? It is these kinds of questions by the ego...along with the fear of the unknown, letting go, etc, etc...that pushes awakening away. Awakening may have happened already if it was not for these questions and egoic fears.
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Post by karen on May 17, 2010 21:56:45 GMT -5
Why not just check out now and end the illusory suffering of this illusory physical existence? Go straight to the oneness? Why would one kill themselves, and just what reassurances would they have that this would end the illusion? In my own experience of lessor self-harm - it only seems to strengthen the illusion. Perhaps to some of you these kind of queries show that I just don't get it, and that's fair enough. A simple answer might be to say - Just wake up and all will be revealed. But what if that awakening does not happen? Waking up might be simple, but it's hard to do. As LM says, it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. I'm still working on it myself. Give yourself a break.
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Post by ethereal on May 17, 2010 23:10:22 GMT -5
I have some thoughts to reply to your post but I am not awakened yet, so take them with a grain of salt. I think most spiritual teachers say that there is reincarnation after death, unless one is enlightened. So I do not believe that one automatically returns to Oneness after death. Otherwise, we wouldn't be incarnated here in the first place, we'd be in the Oneness after any of our previous lifetimes. Meaninglessness (in enlightenment) is not the same as what the ego thinks it is. True meaninglessness is the absence of both meaning and meaninglessness, because that is just another duality. The ego's form of meaninglessness is the concept of the negation of meaning, whereas the meaninglessness of enlightenment is just what is, what truly exists, what is real, without the filter of concepts (and all meaning are just concepts). For example, take a flower or a sunset. Your mind may attach the meaning of "beautiful" onto the experience, but without the concept/meaning in your mind, is the beauty still there in reality? Did you need to add a concept onto reality in order to make it more meaningful, or is reality itself infinitely meaningful already, and categorizing or labeling it actually lessens its meaning? Oscar Wilde said, "All thought is immoral. Its very essence is destruction. If you think of anything, you kill it. Nothing survives being thought of." As for thinking you may not awaken this lifetime, and asking questions about what may happen in the afterlife -- that itself is just another trick and excuse of the ego to pull you off the straight and narrow path. All the stuff like heaven and reincarnation may be true in the dream, but so what? Why settle for less? Why delay? You gotta enlighten some lifetime, might as well be this one while you still got the chance This is taken from wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_beings_in_Buddhism"The human rebirth is said to be extremely rare. The Bodhicaryāvatāra compares it to a wooden cattle-yoke floating on the waves of the ocean, tossed this way and that by the winds and currents. The likelihood of a half-blind turtle, rising from the depths of the ocean to the surface once in a hundred years, putting its head through the hole in the yoke is considered greater than that of a being in saṃsāra achieving rebirth as a human.[4] Among humans there are also better and worse conditions for attaining enlightenment. Besides being born as a human, the favorable conditions for obtaining enlightenment are: Being born a human at a time when a Buddha has arisen, has taught the Dharma, and has left a Saṅgha that carries on the teachings; at such times there is a chance to learn the Dharma. Being born a human in countries where the Dharma is known. Buddhist commentaries contrast the "central lands" where Buddhism is known and can be practiced (originally just northern India, but now including a much larger portion of the globe) with "border countries" where Buddhism is unknown or cannot be practiced due to legal or practical impediments, for instance, a lack of qualified teachers. Technically a "central land" is one which possesses any one of the Buddhist saṅghas of bhikṣus, bhikṣuṇīs, upāsakas or upāsikās. Being born a human who has the physical and intellectual capacity to grasp the basic message of the Dharma. Accepting the relationship between good or evil actions and their consequences, believing that good actions will lead to a happier life, a better rebirth or to enlightenment. Confidence in the moral teachings conveyed in the Vinaya. Avoiding crimes against people and against the Dharma. Having sincere compassion for other people.[5] Just as it is difficult to obtain birth as a human, it is also difficult to be born at the time when a Buddha's teaching is still available. Out of the infinite kalpas (incredibly long periods) in time, most have no Buddhas appearing in them at all. The present kalpa is called "Fortunate" because it is said that 1,000 Buddhas will appear in it, something that is very unusual.[6] For this reason, Buddhist teachers say that one's present condition as a human should be valued very highly, and not allowed to slide by, as the combination of existence as a human and the presence of a Buddha's teaching may not come again for a very long time. Any human, in this view, who finds himself or herself in a position to learn the Dharma, would be remiss if he or she did not take advantage of it. This view also stands in contrast to those who would claim that, if one is to be reborn multiple times, there is no need to worry about one's actions in this life as they can always be amended in the future; rather, there is no assurance that in a long series of lives one will ever obtain the right circumstances for enlightenment, so it is important to seize the day." I fully believe that enlightenment is a result of conscious effort and intention, not getting lucky with God's lottery. There are definite ways and practices and methods of making progress. The important question is, "Are you doing everything that you can do on your end?" For example, in the past week I've made the commitment to never give into any desire I have, if I can help it (i.e. if I consciously remember to). My teachers have repeatedly said that desires are what limit Grace, and if you want more Grace you have to empty out all your desires. And in that week I've made more progress than I've made in the past year or two. So one thing I can recommend to you is, just surrender every desire you have right now, and focus all your time on spiritual practices. In my own life I cut out masturbation, TV, web surfing, music, computer games, excessive/unhealthy food, desire to resist suffering, desire for a better state, exposure to negativity, etc. and pretty much just contemplated/surrendered all day long. It may seem extreme, but how much do you want enlightenment? The higher the reward, the higher the price. And the price of enlightenment is everything As Adyashanti puts it: I am all hollowed out now Like a reed. I gave everything for this. And still I laughingly wonder: How could it have been so cheap? So you have to take a honest sincere look at yourself and figure out just how badly you want enlightenment. My teacher says full liberation is possible in just one lifetime, even 15 years, if it is your focus 24/7 and you do your practices intensely. This is full liberation, not just some lower stage of enlightenment which I think most people who claim enlightenment are at. Just some stage of no-self, where the concept of self is gone but there still is a self. The senses still operate, who is it that senses? Some form of self There is bliss, Atman, and Brahman beyond that in order to fully liberate. And full liberation is possible in 15 years! So why wait? Sorry if this post seems a little harsh. I didn't intend it to be that way. My intention is to help you see that it is your ego that is trying to distract you from awakening with these thoughts and doubts. Don't listen to the ego's BS
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Post by zendancer on May 18, 2010 9:20:39 GMT -5
This forum is a wonderful source of pertinent questions and insightful answers. Thoroughly enjoyable, and very helpful. I would like to express my gratitude to all the posters, particularly those who post frequently, and are clearly giving a lot of their personal time to helping others (and hopefully themselves) through this board. Thank you. Many questions have been put that might be described as being dualistic in nature, and generally the replies come from the non-dualistic perspective. This is understandable, the objective is to help people wake up, so when people ask questions like what happens after death they are told "who dies?", "there isn't anyone to die", "you were never born you can never die", and answers of that nature. All very laudable non-dualistic replies that may contribute to the questioner's awakening. My concern is for the many (including myself!) who have not awakened, and possibly never will. Talk of meaninglessness and such could drive such people to despair. Whether it's saying that there's no heaven, no karma, no reincarnation or whatever, all this is true in the reality of non-duality but the question that remains unclear to me and seems, again to me, to not be addressed in the replies, is whether all the above concepts, heaven etc., are real "within the dream" - Are they experienced by the dreamer? For example, does a Christian dreamer experience within the dream an encounter with "God" after the death of the body/mind? Do individual dreamers experience a sense of continuity between physical lives? Does the individual dreamer continue to dream life after life until finally awakening? If the I that I believe I am dies without "waking up" what becomes of it, of me? If as Tony Parsons says, there is nothing after death, just oneness why wait? Why not just check out now and end the illusory suffering of this illusory physical existence? Go straight to the oneness? Perhaps to some of you these kind of queries show that I just don't get it, and that's fair enough. A simple answer might be to say - Just wake up and all will be revealed. But what if that awakening does not happen? Enda: I'll give you some personal feedback at the level from which you asked these questions. I was a skeptic, a scientist. I wanted to experience the truth for myself. What I experienced during my first kensho experience was something like what Ricky describes to Jane about the plastic bag scene in the movie American Beauty. I discovered that the absolute is benevolent and that love underlies everything. I discovered that there is only an infinite oneness and that all separateness is an illusion. This caused me to lose all interest in the future. Why? Because I knew that everything is taken care of and will always be taken care of. Reincarnation now strikes me as a very funny idea--an attempt by ego to seek continuity. It is similar to the Christian idea of heaven, and it is similarly ludicrous. Anyone who sees the truth would never want anything other than what is here and now. When this body/mind dies, who I am (and who everyone else is) will still be here. Who we are is always re-incarnating, but not in the way that is usually imagined. Who we are is being born and is dying millions of times per second! During the time it took for you to read these words, who you are died millions of times. Some guy in China just now died, for example, but you are still here, and both of you are the same One. When your body/mind dies, some guy in China will still be going about his business, so who you are will still be here. Who we all are is looking out of every creature's eyes, but is beyond even that. The present moment is when and where all of this happens. There is intellectual meaning and meaninglessness, but there is absolute meaning that is beyond such superficial duality. How is it found? Simply abide in presence. Be here now. Use the mind only when it is needed (to make plans, do math calculations, design products, etc). Be a person of action. Just do it! Do what needs to be done now and then do the next thing that needs to be done. Focus on what you can see and hear. As Leonard Jacobsen reminds us, When you are in the mind, you are in the past or future. The one place you are not is in the present moment. Reality exists only in the present moment. Therefore when you are in the mind, what you are experiencing is not real. You enter the mind by thinking. Whenever you think, you take yourself into mind's world. It does not make any difference whether it is a perfectly intelligent thought or a profoundly spiritual thought. All thinking has the same effect. It takes you into the mind's world. A world of remembered past and the imagined future. A world of thought and belief. A world of opinion and concept. A world of memory and imagination. A world of idea and abstraction. A world of illusion. If you want to come out of the mind, then thinking will have to stop. If you abide in presence, you will almost certainly wake up, but if not, so what? Abiding in presence is its own reward. At least you will perceive what is real, and if you give up the habit of incessant thought, I guarantee that you will be happier than 99.99% of all people alive on this planet. You can take that to the bank! Someone once asked a Zen Master, "What happens after we die?" The Zen Master replied, "Why ask me? I'm not dead yet."
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enda
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Post by enda on May 18, 2010 17:28:20 GMT -5
Zendancer, it's those 99.99% of people that I am talking about, the ones who do not wake up, the ones to whom all these non-duality truisms are just conceptual paradoxes. If an alcoholic asks whether you think he should drink Jack Daniels or Southern Comfort you can 1) tell him how wonderful life will be if he gives up the drink altogether, 2) or you can say it doesn't matter which he takes, 3) or you can answer the question that is actually being asked, 4) or admit to not knowing the answer. All these options are open. Most postings only seem to reply along the lines of options 1 and 2. There have been no replies to my posting that address the questions posed, the replies fall into the category of "when you awaken you will understand". Folks, to keep it simple, which whiskey? do you know or not?
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enda
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Posts: 17
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Post by enda on May 18, 2010 18:17:08 GMT -5
Karen, The difference between self harm and death is that the same body/mind continues to function after self-harm, and as you say is left even deeper in illusion. What Tony Parsons was saying was that the illusion ceases when the body/mind ceases/dies, so I was asking Why wait? What difference does it make to oneness whether we dream we are alive or not? Aren't we just the arising of oneness? If you can't wake from a dream it becomes a nightmare.
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Post by karen on May 18, 2010 18:31:31 GMT -5
Hi enda, yes I understood your question. But I ask again, why kill oneself? How does one know it all ends at death? Have I ever been dead before to know for 100% sure?I don't care what anyone else says, that isn't good enough for me. What if there was no escape from life?
But I I used to ask the same question to myself: why not end it now? But then I answered that by asking why should I kill myself in the first place? And how sure am I that there even a valid reason to kill myself. I could find none.
It's almost like like questions neutralized the first question. Over time I stopped asked it all together.
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enda
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Posts: 17
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Post by enda on May 18, 2010 18:47:30 GMT -5
Yes Karen, I appreciate what you are saying. The information I am trying to extract (with great difficulty!) from the great sages of non-duality who inhabit this forum is an understanding of what is going on that can be taken on board by the intellect of the average, unawakened person. It's like asking a quantum physicist to teach an infant to count! How does one know it all ends at death? My point was that that was clearly what Tony Parsons said. For those struggling to learn to count this kind of assertion can be devastating. The constant mantra of "Everything will be ok when you awaken" is like telling the infant that counting to 10 won't matter once he grasps that E=MC2!! Non-Conceptual awareness starts life as a concept!!
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Post by karen on May 18, 2010 18:59:41 GMT -5
The constant mantra of" Everything will be ok when you awaken" is like telling the infant that counting to 10 won't matter once he grasps that E=MC2!! Non-Conceptual awareness starts life as a concept!! I haven't heard that mantra. I've heard the mantra that direct experience is all that matters; accepting anyone's word on anything is hollow. That what I get out of this forum.
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Post by zendancer on May 18, 2010 20:42:23 GMT -5
the question that remains unclear to me and seems, again to me, to not be addressed in the replies, is whether all the above concepts, heaven etc., are real "within the dream" - Are they experienced by the dreamer? For example, does a Christian dreamer experience within the dream an encounter with "God" after the death of the body/mind? Do individual dreamers experience a sense of continuity between physical lives? Does the individual dreamer continue to dream life after life until finally awakening? If the I that I believe I am dies without "waking up" what becomes of it, of me? If as Tony Parsons says, there is nothing after death, just oneness why wait? Why not just check out now and end the illusory suffering of this illusory physical existence? Go straight to the oneness? Perhaps to some of you these kind of queries show that I just don't get it, and that's fair enough. A simple answer might be to say - Just wake up and all will be revealed. But what if that awakening does not happen? Enda: I thought Eric and I had answered your questions, but let's take them one at a time: 1. Are all the concepts real within the dream? They are real only as concepts. 2. Are the concepts (heaven, etc) experienced by the dreamer? They are experienced only as concepts. 3.Does a Christian dreamer experience within the dream an encounter with God after death of the body? No. Dreams end with the death of the body. 4. Do individual dreamers experience a sense of continuity between physical lives? No. Dreams end with the death of the body. 5. Does the individual dreamer continue to dream life after life until final awakening? No. Dreams end with the death of the body. 6. If the I that I believe I am dies without waking up, what becomes of it, of me? The I that you believe you are is an illusion. Who you THINK you are has never existed. Who you REALLY are is unaffected by death. 7. If, as Tony Parsons says, there is nothing after death, just oneness, why wait; why not just check out now and end the illusory suffering of this illusory physical existence; go straight to the oneness? You can't go straight to the oneness because you already are the oneness, whether you realize it or not. A million years ago there was only oneness. Today there is only oneness. A million years from now there will only be oneness. You can't even check out because who you are will still be here no matter what happens to the body/mind you think of as "yours." These questions do suggest an interesting experiment. First, make a list of every existential question you can think of. Second, think as hard as you can about each question. Third, worry about all of the consequences implied by all of the questions. Fourth, worry about not finding any answers to the questions. Fifth, worry about finding the wrong answers to the questions. Sixth, worry about finding the right answers without realizing it. Seventh, worry about not making enough progress or making progress too slowly. Eighth, worry about not getting anything after expending lots of effort. Ninth, worry about what might happen if you accidentally stumble upon enlightenment. Tenth, worry about the meaning of meaning or the meaning of meaninglessness. Ad infinitum........ Try this and see what happens. I suspect that at some point you will burst out laughing, and that will be a big clue about the value of this sort of endeavor. LOL
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Post by synapticrythms on May 18, 2010 21:04:17 GMT -5
If you honestly attempt every single one of those questions in depth, there will be nothing left by the time you get done... each rabbit hole question leads to a rabbit hole where infinity waits at the bottom. Eventually the questions stop as you realize the thinking mind is way too fallible. That leads you to a place where you see the absurdity of thought. That leads you to, "Oh... well, that didn't work so well... I wonder what would happen if I stopped being attached to the thoughts that run through my head all day long." Next thing you know... someone says, who is the separate entity that perceives. (Thanks again, zendancer.) Then the world goes all tilty... even more tilty than it was before... and you slide down to a deeper level of experience.
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Post by runstill on May 19, 2010 2:55:06 GMT -5
well I very tentatively jump into this discussion at the risk of getting a bruised ego he he I know I know.
I'm awed by the level of intellect on this board and in particular the senior members and new member in this post.
I feel a call to add to this post primarily because of a recent realization that jolted into my mind. Please understand I may not express myself that well but I'm fairly new to all this and I've not written much.
The realization came when my ego jolted back on after it was not there for a minute or two.What was left when ego was off was perceiving awareness no thoughts at all no deep underlying tension that is always in me no me. I was just looking/perceiving.There was more to it but I haven't found the words yet, oh wait it did feel some how familiar.
The realization that I felt as a truth frighten me actually there was two.The first was that I didn't exist.The second was even worse it was that I never existed.
Well putting this in words is even a little scary but my curiosity has driven me to seek answers to what occurred that day.Finding this wed site and the links it provides have helped a lot.
One thing I know is that who I think I am I'm not , I don't exist he he
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Post by zendancer on May 19, 2010 7:26:20 GMT -5
Runstill: Welcome to the forum! Yes. One glimpse is sometimes all that is necessary to realize that our usual thought-based reality is not the real reality. It can also be frightening when first glimpsed because it pulls the rug out from under our usual sense of identity. Fortunately, who we are is deeper than all thought-based ideas of who we are, and finding THAT is priceless.
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Post by enigma on May 21, 2010 2:52:41 GMT -5
The only answer I've seen to the question is "Dreams end with the death of the body". I'm infamous for rambling on endlessly about stuff I intuitively 'see', but when I turn that attention to what happens after death, there's nothing. I used to think this meant there's nothing after death, but I've come to see that the question is much like asking, 'what will I be doing next week?' which I'm also clueless about. IOW, dream stuff is dream stuff and it only unfolds when it does and how it does. The idea that the dream ends with the death of the body seems to suggest that consciousness is in the body rather than the body being in consciousness. That's to say, consciousness does not really require eyes to see or ears to hear. The body is merely one more appearance in consciousness, and to put my head on the block here, I would say it appears as more of a way of explaining perception than causing it. The death of a body is an event in consciousness, and while this event implies that the direction consciousness is moving is toward the dissolution of that individualized expression, it seems it is not necessarily so. All potentials exist always, and are not bounded by apparent dream rules, even if such rules are the norm. To put it differently, nothing within the dream is the cause of anything in the dream. In any case, what is actually sought is the awakening experience rather than awakeness itself. Awakeness is already the case, and it is awakeness which seeks this experience. To attempt to skip over experience to reach this awakeness is a misconceptualization that awakeness is a goal to be achieved by somebody, or that experience can be conveniently avoided by somebody. There are two thoughts that come to mind: 'There is no such thing as karma', and, 'Karma is a bitch.' ~
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