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Post by commiejesus on Nov 25, 2008 20:45:00 GMT -5
Q. [7.33] Is suicide a sin, what is the truth with suicide isn’t that murder?
Yes, suicide is the "murder" of the snapshot self for that incarnation. In fact you are not terminating much but a life in 1000's of lifetimes of the cosmic cycles.
I was involved in the financial markets for years I just recently leaned that many professional traders kill themselves as a consequence of turmoil in the markets (stocks or com-modities). This, of course happens in all walks of life. We want to give up living as life becomes a burden, or we perceive our-selves as such to our families.
There is no "sin" in suicide. It is said that people will come back (transmigrate souls) after a suicide in some conditions, as a hunchback. I am not sure if this is true or not, what is cer-tain in my mind that you cannot escape your Karmic fate by killing yourself. If you need to live through a certain experi-ence for the purpose of learning you will. Then in your NEXT LIFE, you might experience the very same "burden" what your suicide attempted to alleviate.
This seems perhaps harsh for some people to face but in fact all our thoughts and deeds have karmic impact (good AND bad). Do not forget about the good karma part, we can-not go (progress further) on until the karmic "bank account" is settled, one way or another...
I can understand a person wanting to quit living but know this, suicide as an action also has karmic consequences. Everything has.
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 26, 2008 11:35:50 GMT -5
Well said. There's nothing wrong with suicide, other than that it would be an unpleasant experience and you're just going to have to come back and learn the same lesson all over again anyway. Also, the more one resists the lesson, the more life puts it in your face so you HAVE to deal with it. Killing yourself just makes the lesson even more intense next time. Not worth it.  |
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Post by klaus on Nov 26, 2008 17:26:22 GMT -5
in the act of suicide one murders the world and by extension all of creation, of which the suicide is a part. therefore, it is a profane act, so it is wrong.
the fact that the suicide reincarnates back into the world(creation) is Reality's way of saying "wrong."
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sophia
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...the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. ~Plato
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Post by sophia on Nov 26, 2008 22:01:54 GMT -5
An old friend of mine once said that to kill oneself is to have one's own blood on one's own hands.
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Post by athought on Nov 26, 2008 23:28:27 GMT -5
Isn't it said that the Tibetan Lamas intentionally die to reincarnate at times? That would seem to be a bit different than death by some violent means. If this is the case then life and death is no doubt viewed differently anyway.
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sophia
Full Member
...the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. ~Plato
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Post by sophia on Nov 27, 2008 0:38:13 GMT -5
I've been spending some time looking for information about this with Google and I can't seem to find anything. Do you have any links for me so that I can read about it?
I've heard of Tulkus, lamas taking the Bodhisattva Vow to be reincarnated in order to help mankind.
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 27, 2008 19:11:33 GMT -5
What makes you say it is profane and wrong? Does that fact that life helps us get where we want by nudging us in a certain direction mean that going against it is wrong? It hurts, certainly, but how could it be wrong? If life (if We) didn't want to allow that possibility, then there would be no reason for life to be structured that way. If we wanted to allow that possibility, then what's wrong with that? What do you think? in the act of suicide one murders the world and by extension all of creation, of which the suicide is a part. therefore, it is a profane act, so it is wrong. the fact that the suicide reincarnates back into the world(creation) is Reality's way of saying "wrong." |
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Morrie
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"Nothing is me" is the first step. "Everything is me" is the next.
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Post by Morrie on Nov 27, 2008 19:14:28 GMT -5
I don't think suicide is a sin either, but I think the merits of suicide would be highly situational. An elderly person who has a painful and chronically progressing terminal disease should not be forced to stay alive if that is their choice. It is a different for a physically healthy person in the prime of their life who is considering suicide because they are despondent over a particular life situation that has happened to them. I don't think suicide is a sin, but I don't think it should be overly romanticized as an option.
In the original post, CommieJesus mentions businessmen who kill themselves after losing everything in financial downturn. The real reason a businessman kills himself in this type of situation is interesting. The businessman has created a false construct about how he views himself in relation to the world and how the world views him (i.e., "I am a successfull businesman" and "The world views me as a successful businessman"). Therefore, he really doesn't kill himself, he commits suicide to protect this phony false construct about himself.
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Post by klaus on Nov 29, 2008 20:16:55 GMT -5
light mystic
Suicide is profane in the sense that the people who commit suicide are unenlightened.The person murders the world by eliminating his/her personal consciousness of the world.To bring life to a sudden end leaves all kinds of unresolved issues behind for the person who commits suicide. It is done in a negative state of mind even if Life nudges that person to commit suicide. Life does not take away the possibility of suicide.
But death is a process of transition, transformation and those unresolved issues may complicate the transition and create distrubances after death. This is wrong.
An enlightened person does not bring life to a sudden end. He choses death, and will bring unresolved issues to a close in order not to complicate the transition and therefore cooperate with the process of death. This is right.
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 1, 2008 14:03:31 GMT -5
Hmmm...I certainly can respect your opinion, but I really don't experience it that way. I don't feel like there's any such thing as "unenlightened behavior." I do not see that suicide is a sign of a lack of enlightenment. There's nothing that says an Enlightened person has to enjoy life. And what's all this about putting down murder? Personally it's usually against my integrity to support murder in any way, but that doesn't mean it's objectively "wrong"? Where did that idea come from? Unless one is perfectly one with the world, how could anyone not have "unresolved issues" after death? Isn't that why it seems like we keep coming back in the first place? And what's wrong with complication? Life is extremely complicated on some level. Infinitely complex. Is that wrong somehow? Who says that we have to like dying? It's wonderful to be at peace with it, but that's not people's jobs in general. Our job is to actively avoid death, otherwise, we'd all realize ourselves at once and the universe would end. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Seriuosly, where are these ideas coming from? These are not rhetorical questions. |
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Post by klaus on Dec 2, 2008 21:46:17 GMT -5
Hmmm...I certainly can respect your opinion, but I really don't experience it that way. I don't feel like there's any such thing as "unenlightened behavior." I do not see that suicide is a sign of a lack of enlightenment. There's nothing that says an Enlightened person has to enjoy life. And what's all this about putting down murder? Personally it's usually against my integrity to support murder in any way, but that doesn't mean it's objectively "wrong"? Where did that idea come from? Unless one is perfectly one with the world, how could anyone not have "unresolved issues" after death? Isn't that why it seems like we keep coming back in the first place? And what's wrong with complication? Life is extremely complicated on some level. Infinitely complex. Is that wrong somehow? Who says that we have to like dying? It's wonderful to be at peace with it, but that's not people's jobs in general. Our job is to actively avoid death, otherwise, we'd all realize ourselves at once and the universe would end. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Seriuosly, where are these ideas coming from? These are not rhetorical questions. Can you clarify what you mean by unenlightened behavior and that murder isn't objectively wrong? |
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sophia
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...the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. ~Plato
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Post by sophia on Dec 2, 2008 22:56:12 GMT -5
Hi Klaus,
I realize that LightMystic's take on this subject is a bit shocking. It is my opinion that what he says is similar to a saying that goes something along the lines of the idea that Light shines on all and makes no distinction between good or evil.
The question is, is there such a thing as objective evil?
"Good and Evil are twins, the progeny of Space and Time, under the sway of Maya. Separate them, by cutting off one from the other, and they will both die. Neither exists per se, since each has to be generated and created out of the other, in order to come into being; both must be known and appreciated before becoming objects of perception, hence, in mortal mind, they must be divided." ~H.P. Blavatsky
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sophia
Full Member
...the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. ~Plato
Posts: 146
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Post by sophia on Dec 2, 2008 23:24:30 GMT -5
P.S.
I have not come to a conclusion on the question of whether or not good and evil exist.
But I think that since humans may have distinguished between the two, a wise person would always choose good over evil.
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Post by commiejesus on Dec 3, 2008 8:55:55 GMT -5
It is one of the common "new age" follies - failing to dismiss certain things as undesirable. We live in the mundane world where everything has polarity. OK, there is nothing like "evil" per se but there is darkness (the opposite of light) and hence there is "bad" as opposite to good, in a metaphysical sense. Those who claim that there is nothing "dark" in the mundane world and it is OK to dabble and explore it, are playing with matches and dynamite sticks without the knowledge what they are doing. It is perhaps their karma to be hurt this way, but this is a distinct danger for us who chose to walk this path. For every person who chose to be a "light worker" are those who chose to follow a more sinister and darker path. It is their prerogative but do not believe that they are not there and they are "harmless". These groups and people are hindering our Earth's evolution and our group consciousness. We are already 300-400 years behind where we supposed to be and that is not a coincidence. They are forces that working for this aim. This is the quote from Mundy's Queen Cleopatra my favorite new age fiction. " There are two forces, each having seven streams, and they again seven times seven, and so on downward unto an infinity of numbers. They are right- and left-hand—positive and negative—light and darkness—good and evil. Each has many names and many attributes, and in the ultimate the two are one; though not yet, nor for many eons, is their oneness manifested, and until then they are opposites. Their oneness is an occult secret, difficult to understand, and it is madness for the choosers of the left-hand force to meditate their treacheries when the star of the right-hand force is in the ascendent."FRAGMENT FROM THE DIARY OF OLYMPUS. www.amazon.com/Queen-Cleopatra-Talbot-Mundy/dp/0981597130/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228313297&sr=8-4P.S. I have not come to a conclusion on the question of whether or not good and evil exist. But I think that since humans may have distinguished between the two, a wise person would always choose good over evil. |
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 3, 2008 12:14:21 GMT -5
Great quotes CJ and Sophia, I definitely connect with them. Sure, I'd be happy to explain myself more clearly, Klaus. There is nothing in specific outwardly that can be a definitive sign of whether a person is Enlightened or not. Everyone has issues, and one can know who one is and still have all kinds of issues. These issues seem to start to be resolved over time, but there can theoretically still be any issue or lack of issue and that does not necessarily validate or invalidate one's experience of Enlightenment (or lack of Enlightenment). Enlightenment is something beyond the Relative. It is not a morality, a code of conduct, or anything that involves being a "good" or "descent" person. There is no such thing as an Enlightened personality, because Enlightenment is the realization of the end of duality. That means that everything, and I mean absolutely EVERYTHING, without exception, is experienced the Infinite, That which is beyond all space/time, That which can never be said, but only pointed to, and this is experienced with the clarity that That is what one IS, and has always been. BTW, although it's simultaneously completely flashy and completely normal, people tend to focus on the flash, so let me stress that this is already going on. Everyone is already having this experience, but ideas of self and control and connection and all of that gets in the way of it being seen clearly and so it feels like an "additional" "thing" that "one" needs to "get". All of the quotations are common misnomers. -It's not additional - it's already going on. -it's not a "thing". It's the infinite. It's, by definition, lack of a "thing" because the infinite cannot be defined with edges. It is the unknown itself if you want to look at it that way. -there are no separate people to "get it." This is the most confusing part in my experience because it's simultaneously true and untrue at the same time while remaining in perfect harmony with each other. It's the paradox. - "get" - it cannot be gotten because it's already had. All that can be done is have the resistance/misconceptions in the way removed and relaxed and then it's the most obvious thing in the world. More obvious THAN the world, actually. It's self evident. Does that make sense? Next post we should talk about murder. This is such an awesome topic that I think I'll create a new thread for it. Can you clarify what you mean by unenlightened behavior and that murder isn't objectively wrong? |
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