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Post by lopezcabellero on Jan 22, 2020 16:41:54 GMT -5
The heart of identification revolves around being a person entity within the changing cycles and non cycles of space time. We've spoken at length as to why identification with person or mind could also be labelled suffering, and have even traversed into how the pursuit of facade or ego growth can be fulfilling in the short term through the dynamic of compensation. Here, I'd like to examine how breaks in emotional continuity of the person entity lead to identification, and also play with the idea of how a universe that you can depend on to function a certain way is a deeper expression of love that is the ultimate expression of what you are.
This ultimate expression of oneness can seem hard to find in what can be a hostile and competitive world. The conditioned human, along a sequence of mathematical perfection, appeared destined to create the human ego from emotional manipulation. We could argue divine oversight and hidden purpose, like the universe wanting to wake up to itself, but there is no universe entity that needed to think about waking up from being identified with an appearance within its own illusory finite structure. People make that part up.
Rather, the human mind's potential is designed to get the better of itself, which is intelligent. Through compensating and seeking through generations of human behavior, a system that cannot sustain itself manifests and self destructs. We see this happening through individual awakening as well as collectively collapsing structures.
And yet through ego manifestation and transcendence, genocide to an overthrowing revolt, the Earth's rotational cycles remain relatively unperturbed. The melting point of rubber stays constant while the milk in the fridge doesn't spoil before it's supposed to. The experiential framework appears to obey rules, and without these rules the experience would be both unstable and potentially horrifying.
The rules of the universe weren't created by the universe, but rather, are discovered by people who inhabit it. We might think of them as intrinsic conceptual qualities, byproducts of oneness and human attempts to explain how all that is manifested can be one and yet simultaneously change. The universe moves as one, and within this movement the potential for consciousness to lose consciousness of human emotion happens through human fear and its mental-emotional offspring, the grotesque ego and the insanity of trauma infliction to repression to projection and repeating. And so it's clear processing of the unconscious, or becoming conscious itself, is a return home perpetuated by real love or the real you. Awakening is thus often looked at as a process of discovery.
To identify as a continuous self with a past and a future is an insane way to live. And yet to become conscious of the breaks in emotional continuity, the unwillingness to tremble or acknowledge fears we developed as children and carry into adulthood, the blatant obviousness of our behavioral contradictions with our moral compass, perpetuated by the need to keep the ego safe from real self inquiry blanketed by a deranged collective sense of normalcy, hope for lasting change may need to be balanced with a dose of reality.
Nevertheless, we continue to interface and speak as if we are people with pasts and futures, because we ideate these frameworks to create not only meaning but purpose. When we ideate in such a way while in the presence of breaks in emotional continuity, we are part of an ongoing human dilemma. Oneness, of course, is the reduction of a problem to the absence of a solution. And so maybe we should talk more about oneness realization and what it's not.
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Post by krsnaraja on Jan 22, 2020 19:44:49 GMT -5
When I was a baby, I was not aware who I was. But my parents elder brother and sister identified me as a baby, a tot. So, they treated me as if I were a baby.
When I became a teen ager, I developed a sense of identity. I had a name I was taught to memorize and write. I see myself in the mirror, confirming that this image is a boy not a girl. Because when I look down I see a birdy not flower.
Hormones took over. My muscles grew, I became tall I now wore a moustache. Hairs in my armpit and pubis. I am attractive to the opposite sex. My sense of identity as an adolescent manifested. I have learned ideas /something in school. I acquired experiences conditioning to act in a certain way and avoid what's to be avoided.
I became a man. This was my identity. Being a man, I found a woman to live with me and have children. To survive, I studied medicine. Being a physician this was my identity so patients come to me, pay me for my services. With this work, my family survived. The children grew up, educated, found work, have a family of their own.
I'm old now still working treating the sick, a physician whom people identify. Yet they don't know my true identity. I keep this to myself. People may think I am crazy if I tell them I'm Krsnaraja, an incarnation of God. The purpose of my incarnation is to teach people Krsna (God) appearing in consciousness.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jan 23, 2020 0:58:09 GMT -5
When I was a baby, I was not aware who I was. But my parents elder brother and sister identified me as a baby, a tot. So, they treated me as if I were a baby. When I became a teen ager, I developed a sense of identity. I had a name I was taught to memorize and write. I see myself in the mirror, confirming that this image is a boy not a girl. Because when I look down I see a birdy not flower. Hormones took over. My muscles grew, I became tall I now wore a moustache. Hairs in my armpit and pubis. I am attractive to the opposite sex. My sense of identity as an adolescent manifested. I have learned ideas /something in school. I acquired experiences conditioning to act in a certain way and avoid what's to be avoided. I became a man. This was my identity. Being a man, I found a woman to live with me and have children. To survive, I studied medicine. Being a physician this was my identity so patients come to me, pay me for my services. With this work, my family survived. The children grew up, educated, found work, have a family of their own. I'm old now still working treating the sick, a physician whom people identify. Yet they don't know my true identity. I keep this to myself. People may think I am crazy if I tell them I'm Krsnaraja, an incarnation of God. The purpose of my incarnation is to teach people Krsna (God) appearing in consciousness.Then maybe you can explain to me how anything you wrote relates to anything I said, apart from being an example of a seemingly continuous life? From where I’m standing, your post echos more of a selfish call for attention, which has ego written all over it. |
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Post by krsnaraja on Jan 23, 2020 2:51:07 GMT -5
When I was a baby, I was not aware who I was. But my parents elder brother and sister identified me as a baby, a tot. So, they treated me as if I were a baby. When I became a teen ager, I developed a sense of identity. I had a name I was taught to memorize and write. I see myself in the mirror, confirming that this image is a boy not a girl. Because when I look down I see a birdy not flower. Hormones took over. My muscles grew, I became tall I now wore a moustache. Hairs in my armpit and pubis. I am attractive to the opposite sex. My sense of identity as an adolescent manifested. I have learned ideas /something in school. I acquired experiences conditioning to act in a certain way and avoid what's to be avoided. I became a man. This was my identity. Being a man, I found a woman to live with me and have children. To survive, I studied medicine. Being a physician this was my identity so patients come to me, pay me for my services. With this work, my family survived. The children grew up, educated, found work, have a family of their own. I'm old now still working treating the sick, a physician whom people identify. Yet they don't know my true identity. I keep this to myself. People may think I am crazy if I tell them I'm Krsnaraja, an incarnation of God. The purpose of my incarnation is to teach people Krsna (God) appearing in consciousness.Then maybe you can explain to me how anything you wrote relates to anything I said, apart from being an example of a seemingly continuous life? From where I’m standing, your post echos more of a selfish call for attention, which has ego written all over it. I find it hard to understand what you wrote. So, my reaction to what you post is based on the title of your thread entitled continuity and identification. I identify myself as the body. I identify to you what I do. Which of course is ego. Continuity is about what happens after this life. In my past life, I was a devotee of Krsna. In my present life I am a reincartion of God, Krsnaraja. That my purpose is to teach people Krsna arising in Consciousness. A continuity of my past and present life. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 23, 2020 14:34:27 GMT -5
The heart of identification revolves around being a person entity within the changing cycles and non cycles of space time. We've spoken at length as to why identification with person or mind could also be labelled suffering, and have even traversed into how the pursuit of facade or ego growth can be fulfilling in the short term through the dynamic of compensation. Here, I'd like to examine how breaks in emotional continuity of the person entity lead to identification, and also play with the idea of how a universe that you can depend on to function a certain way is a deeper expression of love that is the ultimate expression of what you are. This ultimate expression of oneness can seem hard to find in what can be a hostile and competitive world. The conditioned human, along a sequence of mathematical perfection, appeared destined to create the human ego from emotional manipulation. We could argue divine oversight and hidden purpose, like the universe wanting to wake up to itself, but there is no universe entity that needed to think about waking up from being identified with an appearance within its own illusory finite structure. People make that part up. Rather, the human mind's potential is designed to get the better of itself, which is intelligent. Through compensating and seeking through generations of human behavior, a system that cannot sustain itself manifests and self destructs. We see this happening through individual awakening as well as collectively collapsing structures. And yet through ego manifestation and transcendence, genocide to an overthrowing revolt, the Earth's rotational cycles remain relatively unperturbed. The melting point of rubber stays constant while the milk in the fridge doesn't spoil before it's supposed to. The experiential framework appears to obey rules, and without these rules the experience would be both unstable and potentially horrifying. The rules of the universe weren't created by the universe, but rather, are discovered by people who inhabit it. We might think of them as intrinsic conceptual qualities, byproducts of oneness and human attempts to explain how all that is manifested can be one and yet simultaneously change. The universe moves as one, and within this movement the potential for consciousness to lose consciousness of human emotion happens through human fear and its mental-emotional offspring, the grotesque ego and the insanity of trauma infliction to repression to projection and repeating. And so it's clear processing of the unconscious, or becoming conscious itself, is a return home perpetuated by real love or the real you. Awakening is thus often looked at as a process of discovery. To identify as a continuous self with a past and a future is an insane way to live. And yet to become conscious of the breaks in emotional continuity, the unwillingness to tremble or acknowledge fears we developed as children and carry into adulthood, the blatant obviousness of our behavioral contradictions with our moral compass, perpetuated by the need to keep the ego safe from real self inquiry blanketed by a deranged collective sense of normalcy, hope for lasting change may need to be balanced with a dose of reality. Nevertheless, we continue to interface and speak as if we are people with pasts and futures, because we ideate these frameworks to create not only meaning but purpose. When we ideate in such a way while in the presence of breaks in emotional continuity, we are part of an ongoing human dilemma. Oneness, of course, is the reduction of a problem to the absence of a solution. And so maybe we should talk more about oneness realization and what it's not. Describing the realization of oneness as a break in continuity of the false sense of identity definitely works for me. But perhaps, to be more generally inclusive, it might be that such a break offers an opportunity where that realization becomes more likely than when the falsity is continuous. Certainly, any sense of identity that develops after the realization of oneness can't be a continuation of the imposter. |
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jan 24, 2020 1:41:53 GMT -5
Then maybe you can explain to me how anything you wrote relates to anything I said, apart from being an example of a seemingly continuous life? From where I’m standing, your post echos more of a selfish call for attention, which has ego written all over it. I find it hard to understand what you wrote. So, my reaction to what you post is based on the title of your thread entitled continuity and identification. I identify myself as the body. I identify to you what I do. Which of course is ego. Continuity is about what happens after this life. In my past life, I was a devotee of Krsna. In my present life I am a reincartion of God, Krsnaraja. That my purpose is to teach people Krsna arising in Consciousness. A continuity of my past and present life. If you identify yourself as your body, I would call that ego. |
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jan 24, 2020 2:03:41 GMT -5
The heart of identification revolves around being a person entity within the changing cycles and non cycles of space time. We've spoken at length as to why identification with person or mind could also be labelled suffering, and have even traversed into how the pursuit of facade or ego growth can be fulfilling in the short term through the dynamic of compensation. Here, I'd like to examine how breaks in emotional continuity of the person entity lead to identification, and also play with the idea of how a universe that you can depend on to function a certain way is a deeper expression of love that is the ultimate expression of what you are. This ultimate expression of oneness can seem hard to find in what can be a hostile and competitive world. The conditioned human, along a sequence of mathematical perfection, appeared destined to create the human ego from emotional manipulation. We could argue divine oversight and hidden purpose, like the universe wanting to wake up to itself, but there is no universe entity that needed to think about waking up from being identified with an appearance within its own illusory finite structure. People make that part up. Rather, the human mind's potential is designed to get the better of itself, which is intelligent. Through compensating and seeking through generations of human behavior, a system that cannot sustain itself manifests and self destructs. We see this happening through individual awakening as well as collectively collapsing structures. And yet through ego manifestation and transcendence, genocide to an overthrowing revolt, the Earth's rotational cycles remain relatively unperturbed. The melting point of rubber stays constant while the milk in the fridge doesn't spoil before it's supposed to. The experiential framework appears to obey rules, and without these rules the experience would be both unstable and potentially horrifying. The rules of the universe weren't created by the universe, but rather, are discovered by people who inhabit it. We might think of them as intrinsic conceptual qualities, byproducts of oneness and human attempts to explain how all that is manifested can be one and yet simultaneously change. The universe moves as one, and within this movement the potential for consciousness to lose consciousness of human emotion happens through human fear and its mental-emotional offspring, the grotesque ego and the insanity of trauma infliction to repression to projection and repeating. And so it's clear processing of the unconscious, or becoming conscious itself, is a return home perpetuated by real love or the real you. Awakening is thus often looked at as a process of discovery. To identify as a continuous self with a past and a future is an insane way to live. And yet to become conscious of the breaks in emotional continuity, the unwillingness to tremble or acknowledge fears we developed as children and carry into adulthood, the blatant obviousness of our behavioral contradictions with our moral compass, perpetuated by the need to keep the ego safe from real self inquiry blanketed by a deranged collective sense of normalcy, hope for lasting change may need to be balanced with a dose of reality. Nevertheless, we continue to interface and speak as if we are people with pasts and futures, because we ideate these frameworks to create not only meaning but purpose. When we ideate in such a way while in the presence of breaks in emotional continuity, we are part of an ongoing human dilemma. Oneness, of course, is the reduction of a problem to the absence of a solution. And so maybe we should talk more about oneness realization and what it's not. Describing the realization of oneness as a break in continuity of the false sense of identity definitely works for me Well, i think we need to be careful here. If an individual experiences a break in self referential thinking, or a break in thinking entirely, we have the birth of a mind state. This birth doesn’t imply a break in the continuity of ego, as conditioned responses continue regardless of the level of mind chatter. As these conditioned responses can be driven unconsciously, meaning, by unprocessed emotions, a break in the continuity of mind chatter can just be the chameleon ego changing shades. Now, I was trying to hit on unprocessed emotions getting processed through the idea of a break in the humans emotional continuity. Meaning, the condition of the universe causes a potentially unwanted feeling, and this feeling is bypassed and repressed by the ego and then projected and sought out in compensatory form. That’s how facades get built, and how heads come off and buildings come down, and if that’s going on within our framework for a oneness realization, it is time to destroy that framework. Well, I mean the discussion was on the illusion of continuity, because the objects that comprise time and space don’t exist independently of that flimsy framework. Ego is one such non existing entity, and yet to the extent it can be conditioned to experience a break in emotional continuity [prior to realization as opposed to in the form of realizAtion], the phantom potential of developing a oneness identity or some other compensatory identity is inevitable in the absence of becoming conscious of those emotions. So, I mean to distinguish a break in the continuity of thought that is identified with, and the break in emotions that any average joe might experience when going through something they wish wasn’t happening. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 29, 2020 4:56:22 GMT -5
Describing the realization of oneness as a break in continuity of the false sense of identity definitely works for me Well, i think we need to be careful here. If an individual experiences a break in self referential thinking, or a break in thinking entirely, we have the birth of a mind state. This birth doesn’t imply a break in the continuity of ego, as conditioned responses continue regardless of the level of mind chatter. As these conditioned responses can be driven unconsciously, meaning, by unprocessed emotions, a break in the continuity of mind chatter can just be the chameleon ego changing shades. Now, I was trying to hit on unprocessed emotions getting processed through the idea of a break in the humans emotional continuity. Meaning, the condition of the universe causes a potentially unwanted feeling, and this feeling is bypassed and repressed by the ego and then projected and sought out in compensatory form. That’s how facades get built, and how heads come off and buildings come down, and if that’s going on within our framework for a oneness realization, it is time to destroy that framework. Well, I mean the discussion was on the illusion of continuity, because the objects that comprise time and space don’t exist independently of that flimsy framework. Ego is one such non existing entity, and yet to the extent it can be conditioned to experience a break in emotional continuity [prior to realization as opposed to in the form of realizAtion], the phantom potential of developing a oneness identity or some other compensatory identity is inevitable in the absence of becoming conscious of those emotions. So, I mean to distinguish a break in the continuity of thought that is identified with, and the break in emotions that any average joe might experience when going through something they wish wasn’t happening. Yes, what I meant by "sense of identity" is way more than skin deep. Many Joe C. Trancer's here in the 'States have some operative stoic conditioning that is so interwoven in the fabric of their minds as to go unnoticed, much less consciously traced to it's historical origins. It's certainly something I can relate to. Those breaks in emotional continuity are a coping mechanism, and while they can certainly lead to the sort of inner schism you suggest, they are also a very effective and time-tested way to allow one to function effectively in the face of social disorder, oppression and all other manner of sub-optimal material conditions. As always, it's interesting to read these refinements of your ideas over time. They're getting clearer, but they will definitely always require some sustained intellectual attention to engage with. That's not a criticism btw: as I like to say, the existential truth is simplicity incarnate, the human psyche, not so much. Now, as far as the inevitability of a compensatory egoic identity from unconscious emotion is concerned, I'll say this. In terms of the human mind as machine, this pattern seems very clear to me, but not necessarily inevitable. Fast forward 1600 years from the stoics, and at the birth of this language we're using here today, a great man once wrote (using the device of a fiction) "There are more things in heaven and Earth, than are dremt of in your philosophy".  |
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jan 29, 2020 11:58:55 GMT -5
Well, i think we need to be careful here. If an individual experiences a break in self referential thinking, or a break in thinking entirely, we have the birth of a mind state. This birth doesn’t imply a break in the continuity of ego, as conditioned responses continue regardless of the level of mind chatter. As these conditioned responses can be driven unconsciously, meaning, by unprocessed emotions, a break in the continuity of mind chatter can just be the chameleon ego changing shades. Now, I was trying to hit on unprocessed emotions getting processed through the idea of a break in the humans emotional continuity. Meaning, the condition of the universe causes a potentially unwanted feeling, and this feeling is bypassed and repressed by the ego and then projected and sought out in compensatory form. That’s how facades get built, and how heads come off and buildings come down, and if that’s going on within our framework for a oneness realization, it is time to destroy that framework. Well, I mean the discussion was on the illusion of continuity, because the objects that comprise time and space don’t exist independently of that flimsy framework. Ego is one such non existing entity, and yet to the extent it can be conditioned to experience a break in emotional continuity [prior to realization as opposed to in the form of realizAtion], the phantom potential of developing a oneness identity or some other compensatory identity is inevitable in the absence of becoming conscious of those emotions. So, I mean to distinguish a break in the continuity of thought that is identified with, and the break in emotions that any average joe might experience when going through something they wish wasn’t happening. Yes, what I meant by "sense of identity" is way more than skin deep. Many Joe C. Trancer's here in the 'States have some operative stoic conditioning that is so interwoven in the fabric of their minds as to go unnoticed, much less consciously traced to it's historical origins. It's certainly something I can relate to. Those breaks in emotional continuity are a coping mechanism, and while they can certainly lead to the sort of inner schism you suggest, they are also a very effective and time-tested way to allow one to function effectively in the face of social disorder, oppression and all other manner of sub-optimal material functioning normally within an already dysfunctional collective. So you really mean function dysfunctionally. The issue with compensation and unconscious breaks in the emotional spectrum is they lead to the egoic appetite for more. The unconscious then fuels self seeking, and brings to mind the quote of all men leading lives of quiet despair, which I would gladly chew my head off to get out of. On the flip side we have an inborn connection to manifestation that can only be experienced in the absence of these breaks in continuity on the level of trajectory. But too often folks get hung up on wanting to feel better instead of allowing themselves to feel worse, which is what pain body transmutation looks like. Traces of a compensatory identity or facade or ego are the conscious manifestations of breaks in emotional continuity. Eckhart once said that some folks are more capable of creating from source connection but fall into ego during their every day lives. So, I do mean to say that oneness realization in its truest sense cannot be embodied by a human experience within which a mind is functioning in the presence of emotional or spiritual unconsciousness. There is no skipping steps. Conditioning functions according to immutable laws. To the extent one has a Kensho and experiences extended periods of bliss, that’s great. But to the extent that same one is compartmentalized, is to the same extent they must compensate in order for their ego to survive. Survival is about feeling good or better, while closing the breaks continuity is about feeling worse, or being conscious of ones fear of emotion, even if the end result is a harmonious destruction of the distinction between oneself and one universe, or normalistic functioning in oneness through the experience of being a person, which involves, emotions, desires, and preferences, but also unconditional surrender, which might be more closely pointed to as seeing the will of God and the will of the person as the same will. Not that the person is God, but rather the conditioning is the condition. The split is illusory. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 4, 2020 11:36:47 GMT -5
Yes, what I meant by "sense of identity" is way more than skin deep. Many Joe C. Trancer's here in the 'States have some operative stoic conditioning that is so interwoven in the fabric of their minds as to go unnoticed, much less consciously traced to it's historical origins. It's certainly something I can relate to. Those breaks in emotional continuity are a coping mechanism, and while they can certainly lead to the sort of inner schism you suggest, they are also a very effective and time-tested way to allow one to function effectively in the face of social disorder, oppression and all other manner of sub-optimal material functioning normally within an already dysfunctional collective. So you really mean function dysfunctionally. The issue with compensation and unconscious breaks in the emotional spectrum is they lead to the egoic appetite for more. The unconscious then fuels self seeking, and brings to mind the quote of all men leading lives of quiet despair, which I would gladly chew my head off to get out of. On the flip side we have an inborn connection to manifestation that can only be experienced in the absence of these breaks in continuity on the level of trajectory. But too often folks get hung up on wanting to feel better instead of allowing themselves to feel worse, which is what pain body transmutation looks like. As far as the dysfunction of the system is concerned, there's no denying the ongoing manifestation of sub-optimal conditions that lead to the relative causes of human suffering. But beyond recognizing this, the determination of functional/dysfunctional always involves some relative measure of value, while the existential truth is completely sideways to any relative manifestation. Now, it's true that there can be a trajectory towards less inner turmoil, towards a greater degree of presence to what's actually going on around and within oneself, and that on that trajectory, the craving for more starts to subside. The way of the Stoic is the way of becoming conscious of the pleasure/pain principle, and thereby to allow oneself to step outside of it. The question is, does this trajectory reinforce a hard sense of individual identity as defined by the world, or not? While I understand your point about how a break from the emotional center can get attached to as a form of ego, such a break can also be an existential wake-up call. By far the greater measure of the collective human emotional body is a sleep-walking existential deception. The sooner that one is exposed to the facts of the existential truth in intellectual and emotional terms, the sooner they're afforded the opportunity to alter their trajectory of becoming conscious away from the reinforcement of a false sense of relative identity. The peril you raise of a spiritual ego is, of course, quite real, but in terms of numbers and tendency, the far more common pitfall is that of Joe C. Trancer the people-peep. Traces of a compensatory identity or facade or ego are the conscious manifestations of breaks in emotional continuity. Eckhart once said that some folks are more capable of creating from source connection but fall into ego during their every day lives. So, I do mean to say that oneness realization in its truest sense cannot be embodied by a human experience within which a mind is functioning in the presence of emotional or spiritual unconsciousness. There is no skipping steps. Conditioning functions according to immutable laws. To the extent one has a Kensho and experiences extended periods of bliss, that’s great. But to the extent that same one is compartmentalized, is to the same extent they must compensate in order for their ego to survive. Survival is about feeling good or better, while closing the breaks continuity is about feeling worse, or being conscious of ones fear of emotion, even if the end result is a harmonious destruction of the distinction between oneself and one universe, or normalistic functioning in oneness through the experience of being a person, which involves, emotions, desires, and preferences, but also unconditional surrender, which might be more closely pointed to as seeing the will of God and the will of the person as the same will. Not that the person is God, but rather the conditioning is the condition. The split is illusory. Seeking is a two-sided coin. Just as your point about compartmentalization is a tautology, so is the fact that one has either realized the existential truth of oneness, or they haven't. You say there's no skipping steps, but I say, in counterpoint, that not everyone is going to play on the same hopscotch-grid. In fact, noone ever really skips the same exact dance as anyone else. To the extent that the search for existential truth might cause one suffering, that's an opportunity for them to confront that pattern of thought and emotion within themselves that is at odds with themselves. The split is illusory, but even a genuinely self-honest seeker who hasn't yet had a visit from Gracie can accept that point as an intellectual truth, all the while without it being the actuality for them, in their experience. While I really can't imagine such a state lasting very long - regardless of whatever emotional work has or hasn't been done - as I've already said, Horatio, that means nothing more or less than a failure of my, particular act of imagination. |
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Post by lopezcabellero on Feb 5, 2020 9:26:38 GMT -5
functioning normally within an already dysfunctional collective. So you really mean function dysfunctionally. The issue with compensation and unconscious breaks in the emotional spectrum is they lead to the egoic appetite for more. The unconscious then fuels self seeking, and brings to mind the quote of all men leading lives of quiet despair, which I would gladly chew my head off to get out of. On the flip side we have an inborn connection to manifestation that can only be experienced in the absence of these breaks in continuity on the level of trajectory. But too often folks get hung up on wanting to feel better instead of allowing themselves to feel worse, which is what pain body transmutation looks like. As far as the dysfunction of the system is concerned, there's no denying the ongoing manifestation of sub-optimal conditions that lead to the relative causes of human suffering. But beyond recognizing this, the determination of functional/dysfunctional always involves some relative measure of value, while the existential truth is completely sideways to any relative manifestation. Now, it's true that there can be a trajectory towards less inner turmoil, towards a greater degree of presence to what's actually going on around and within oneself, and that on that trajectory, the craving for more starts to subside. The way of the Stoic is the way of becoming conscious of the pleasure/pain principle, and thereby to allow oneself to step outside of it. The question is, does this trajectory reinforce a hard sense of individual identity as defined by the world, or not? While I understand your point about how a break from the emotional center can get attached to as a form of ego, such a break can also be an existential wake-up call. By far the greater measure of the collective human emotional body is a sleep-walking existential deception. The sooner that one is exposed to the facts of the existential truth in intellectual and emotional terms, the sooner they're afforded the opportunity to alter their trajectory of becoming conscious away from the reinforcement of a false sense of relative identity. The peril you raise of a spiritual ego is, of course, quite real, but in terms of numbers and tendency, the far more common pitfall is that of Joe C. Trancer the people-peep. Traces of a compensatory identity or facade or ego are the conscious manifestations of breaks in emotional continuity. Eckhart once said that some folks are more capable of creating from source connection but fall into ego during their every day lives. So, I do mean to say that oneness realization in its truest sense cannot be embodied by a human experience within which a mind is functioning in the presence of emotional or spiritual unconsciousness. There is no skipping steps. Conditioning functions according to immutable laws. To the extent one has a Kensho and experiences extended periods of bliss, that’s great. But to the extent that same one is compartmentalized, is to the same extent they must compensate in order for their ego to survive. Survival is about feeling good or better, while closing the breaks continuity is about feeling worse, or being conscious of ones fear of emotion, even if the end result is a harmonious destruction of the distinction between oneself and one universe, or normalistic functioning in oneness through the experience of being a person, which involves, emotions, desires, and preferences, but also unconditional surrender, which might be more closely pointed to as seeing the will of God and the will of the person as the same will. Not that the person is God, but rather the conditioning is the condition. The split is illusory. Seeking is a two-sided coin. Just as your point about compartmentalization is a tautology, so is the fact that one has either realized the existential truth of oneness, or they haven't. You say there's no skipping steps, but I say, in counterpoint, that not everyone is going to play on the same hopscotch-grid. In fact, noone ever really skips the same exact dance as anyone else. To the extent that the search for existential truth might cause one suffering, that's an opportunity for them to confront that pattern of thought and emotion within themselves that is at odds with themselves. The split is illusory, but even a genuinely self-honest seeker who hasn't yet had a visit from Gracie can accept that point as an intellectual truth, all the while without it being the actuality for them, in their experience. While I really can't imagine such a state lasting very long - regardless of whatever emotional work has or hasn't been done - as I've already said, Horatio, that means nothing more or less than a failure of my, particular act of imagination. Good morning. Laffy said, The more important distinction is the conscious versus unconscious functioning. If a human is behaving in a way that serves to compensate for emotional debris they don’t have the courage to look at, let alone process, they are relatively developmentally stunted. Whether that means being the CEO of a major corporation or hanging out with the Chief from Cuckoos Nest is a distinction with very little difference. And not just the principle or dynamic, but the pain itself. The building blocks of the ego is emotional aversion. You can’t process an emotion that you don’t know exists, or that you do know exists while performing the amazing mind trick of double think, that is to say, pretending it doesn’t exist while simultaneously diverting life energy to avoid it. As far as your question there, you seem to be talking about self seeking desires versus authentic expression of the personality. To the extent one seeks approval, glory, control, we’re looking at self seeking, and that can take many forms, but dynamically, it’s all about self aversion. Through consciousness of this default mode of stunted behavior, the opportunity to expand into ones natural capacity to align with, take messages from, and exert energy toward Or through matrix intelligence opens up. Even the stunted system of modern human thinking is encoded with dna that can provide guidance in ones journey through Higher Consciousness. Sure. But this is where spiritual teachers run a muck. We are discussing the emotional aversion to one’s experience, that is To say, a mind afflicted with a need manage emotions and compensate due to the unconscious compulsion toward feeling happier than sad, better than worse, etc. A three year old may grieve the loss of a toy as an attempt to manipulate, or get the toy back, but also as a means of spontaneous expression. He doesn’t care what anyone thinks about his emotions, because he doesn’t associate shame with their expression. The average human adult, in contrast, is already hardwired into the larva stage on the developmental spectrum. They not only associate shame and guilt with sadness they believe that compensating for sadness is happiness. They identify with the compensatory identity and when that identity is compromised they believe something is going wrong, when for the first time, things are starting to go right. The muck stems from equating emotional aversion with consciousness waking up from the tool performing the aversion, which can often enhance the well being of the tool or person. That well being has nothing to do with emotional processing. It’s a mind state of less aversion through seeking, but with no less emotions to process. To be fair, Jed McKenna actually said there is no skipping steps in his new Jed Talks 3, and I quoted it because it resonated. Page 158 or 153. To be clear, I don’t know anything about a process to realize that one isnt anything changing, that what you are notices change such that you can’t be changing. That we don’t notice the creation of the black hole within, or pain body, or that repressing and compensating has a shelf life and is going to end in disaster, is a personal issue. It’s the personal travesty of the human dream of happiness. It doesn’t exist, isn’t what people think it is, and perhaps the best way to realize that is to seek happiness and watch what happens to what was sought. Seeking existential truth, on the tourist level, which, to be fair, is where most folks are at, is more of a mind game of hide and seek. Adyashanti once said first you seek God, and then God seeks you. Or maybe he was quoting the Buddha. Regardless, seeking God sounds like fun. God seeking you, on the other hand, not so much. Not only not so much but also not a point most folks get to and even fewer folks seem to embrace. How do you love the components of self and experience that you’ve already rejected by compensating and repressing. The ego identity, the false self, must be deconstructed. Otherwise, there is no hope, because there is the need to maintain. Sure, what I call hope might be experienced as despair , but that’s a step forward into the intelligent cooperation of your own creative potential. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 11, 2020 17:15:47 GMT -5
Ok, if you want to call it deconstruction or destruction that's cool, and I can imagine it can happen all sorts of ways. But to my eye, there's going to be a pivotal moment involved in any such story. The process of becoming conscious of body/mind/world happens very differently after ego has simply been seen for what it is. That sudden seeing constitutes a discontinuity in false identification, and has been commonly referred to on this forum as realization.
There is a process whereby one gains relative insight, over time, into the nature of ego, and the nature of what is pointed to by not-two. Tolle called it "watching the thinker", while for Jed it happened (if you take his story as literally true), by way of spiritual autolysis. From my shallow reads on the topic, it seems to me that there are many such processes on offer from spiritual teachers of various stripe. I'd agree that some of them involve the muck you've described, but I can actually think of the finer points of a few that don't. Now, as to how that process relates to realization - or realizations plural - is a different topic.
Your point and descriptions of ego as emotional compensation are quite insightful, and it's perhaps an interesting question as to the nature of the meaning that can be had from them. It seems to me it would go one way if ego has been seen for what it is and another way otherwise. You're right, of course, that becoming conscious of the pain is as important as the insight into the pleasure/pain principle generally, but here again, one is a process, and the other, an event.
Now what I'll add from there is that ultimately, it's only ever ego that would look to destroy, or even erode ego, so that's where we can find the limits of this idea that a deconstruction or destruction of ego ever actually occurs. Also, I haven't interacted with enough people who have an interest in finding existential truth to be able to either support or challenge your conclusions about them.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Feb 12, 2020 10:07:34 GMT -5
Ok, if you want to call it deconstruction or destruction that's cool, and I can imagine it can happen all sorts of ways. But to my eye, there's going to be a pivotal moment involved in any such story. The process of becoming conscious of body/mind/world happens very differently after ego has simply been seen for what it is. That sudden seeing constitutes a discontinuity in false identification, and has been commonly referred to on this forum as realization. There is a process whereby one gains relative insight, over time, into the nature of ego, and the nature of what is pointed to by not-two. Tolle called it "watching the thinker", while for Jed it happened (if you take his story as literally true), by way of spiritual autolysis. From my shallow reads on the topic, it seems to me that there are many such processes on offer from spiritual teachers of various stripe. I'd agree that some of them involve the muck you've described, but I can actually think of the finer points of a few that don't. Now, as to how that process relates to realization - or realizations plural - is a different topic. Your point and descriptions of ego as emotional compensation are quite insightful, and it's perhaps an interesting question as to the nature of the meaning that can be had from them. It seems to me it would go one way if ego has been seen for what it is and another way otherwise. You're right, of course, that becoming conscious of the pain is as important as the insight into the pleasure/pain principle generally, but here again, one is a process, and the other, an event. Now what I'll add from there is that ultimately, it's only ever ego that would look to destroy, or even erode ego, so that's where we can find the limits of this idea that a deconstruction or destruction of ego ever actually occurs. Also, I haven't interacted with enough people who have an interest in finding existential truth to be able to either support or challenge your conclusions about them. You mention the sudden seeing and discontinuity in false identification as realization, but we’re seeing the mind identification phenomenon transcending these realizations. We’ve seen minds delude themselves that they don’t exist while simultaneously believing meditative processes can aid in achieving states of non existence. We’ve seen so called realizations be used to bypass emotional responsibility. We’ve also witnessed these faux realizations be used as alleged inspiration to get other people who don’t exist to feel as good and as blissful as an imagined realized entity that also doesn’t exist, So, what’s really going on there? Why are people attracted to positions of authority? To what extent is it not wholesome? And where do personality addictions come into play, the need for approval etc. Any teaching that doesn’t include emotional processing is by its nature incomplete because it’s unprocessed emotions that cause mind identification. Of course seeing that one is conscious of the mind appearing in consciousness paves the way for processing by the mind, which is an absence of doings that were previously being done, like projection, self avoidance or emotional aversion, but taking solace in the idea the mind isn’t you is just a game to continue living unconsciously. Being aware of how spiritual teachers themselves play the game isn’t something that interests most folks because they need an authority figure to tell them what to do. Why? Because if they didn’t have that they might have to confront some issues of abandonment, and that scares people. People like control, not confronting their deepest fears, and market forces not only mirror this but exploit it. It’d be funny if it wasn’t also true. Compensation and it’s link to fleeting human happiness can be scary to look at. The collective trance is that emotional aversion is not only linked to happiness but depends on it. Without self seeking to initiate what is the point of life? That’s when suicide might start looking like a good idea, and it’s also when dependence on outside authority needs to be flushed from the system. Why would anyone finding comfort in meditation want to approach a potentially suicidal mind state? They wouldn’t. Peeps prefer mind identification. That’s fair enough, but emotional processing tends to be coupled with an exploration of things like desire and law of attraction. If a politician has an emotion of ‘want me approve of me’ because of an emotionally unavailable parent, and this projection is pushing away potential voters, then processing the emotion and becoming conscious is in some ways in harmony with the persons path of least resistance, which might mean winning an election. To call that ego or whatever tends to cloud the issue of dealing with debris. Sometimes the ‘want me approve of me’ emotion can lead to a need to flirt or get attention through sexual projection, while the emotion itself is a projection of the pain linked to abandonment, and in unprojected form has nothing to do with sex. I wonder how many spiritual masters are driven by that emotion, and how many choose to act on it. Probably quite a few. Point being, that authentic desires tend to be clouded by childhood associations surrounding what is and isn’t loving behavior. And Subtle energy vibrations can destroy someone’s life. While passionately pursuing ones desires can bring consciousness to these errors. Fervently self seeking can lead to the elimination of your physical body. So I wouldn’t call the desire to pursue your passion egoic, to the extent it’s coupled to a willingness to experience and process emotion. That’s the gateway to true happiness, and a more fulfilling life. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 18, 2020 18:28:02 GMT -5
Pursing life to the fullest rather than withdrawing from it is certainly a sort of benchmark, but passion is a double-edged sword. On one hand, intense interest in some external form is what leads to a sustained flow of energy between the persona and that form. On the other hand, this is quite obviously the stuff that deep existential delusions are made of.
You asked this question: "without self-seeking, what is the point of life?" Seems to me that many people in the American upper-middle class engineer their lives to be so full of material demands that there's no room for self-seeking. They live paycheck-to-paycheck to pay the mortgage and fund their retirement and their kids future education. Now, consider if they live their entire adult lives until their retirement devoting themselves to their children and maintaining a household this way. It's an existentially ambiguous situation, but one that I can't judge as spiritually benighted. It is one that is, however, likely to lead them to some form of intense existential questioning just as the specter of impeding death is likely to lend challenge to any sort of genuine and open inquiry.
So, just as with "spiritual authority", I can't see self-seeking as either all good or all bad. Monasteries are places where the passion is turned entirely inward, and the outer life is apparently not pursued at all. Never been to one, but then again, I wouldn't necessarily consider every monk who ever lived to have wasted their lives.
As far as false realizations are concerned, the discontinuity I was referring to isn't those. Maybe I need to get out more, but I can't really claim to have witnessed each of those different types of existential pathology you describe on the forums, and to reiterate, I haven't moved much (at all) in nonduality circles. In some instances I might have noticed a few forum episodes that might suggest some of what you're alluding to, but not being in person, I'd rather withhold judgement.
And you see Lo', the thing is, that even a deeply unconscious person entangled in the depths of an obvious game of identity poker is at least on notice of the existential truth by way of some sort of interest in nonduality. "Mere intellectual understandings" got sneered at all the time around here, but I see great value in them.
The only nonduality teachings I'm familiar with are Tolle, Niz, Ramana, and to a lesser extent Adya, Spira, Jed and Mooji, and then what would also be applicable is my generalized familiarity with Zen and Catholic paths. Of these, Tolle, Niz and Adya deal with emotions directly, and Mooji is all about it, as are the Catholic's. Now, while Ramana, Spira and Zen culture don't seem to me to deal with emotions head-on, they do seem to me to deal with them indirectly, by encouraging the seeker to settle down, and find an inner-equilibrium. While Jed's first book seemed almost hostile to the notion of an emotional component, I found that there was a valid reason for him to take that approach, as, for one thing, I don't think the author intended the first book as a complete, stand-alone teaching.
So I'd re-assert my point that there is a process whereby one gains relative insight, over time, into the nature of ego, and any of those sources describe that process. Now, your point about people losing themselves in a misplaced authority figure out of a feeling of abandonment is one that I can't deny seeing expressed before my eyes in cultural terms every single day. But it has a flip-side as well: the perpetual rebel who simply can't even see what's right in front of their face because they spend so much energy rejecting any and all potential sources of authority.
Notice how that flip-side to abandonment can conspire with the idea of thinking oneself so spiritually advanced that they don't need to look at their emotions anymore. A perilous surrender to a false guru blinds the devotee to the guru's abuses, and a false sense of grandeur blinds oneself to how one's mental/physical/emotional state might be degrading themselves and the ones around them. So, just as with any other expression of the existential dilemma, there's no solution. Rejecting authority is ultimately the same as falling into it.
And of the non-dual teachings I listed, only Zen is the one that imposes any sort of authority on the seeker. The others are all quite explicit as to how the reader/listener/practitioner should find out the truth for themselves and confirm it via inner-authority. So, really, if anything, the nonduality teachings I'm familiar with are more prone to the rebel trap than the fake, destructive guru trap.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 18, 2020 20:23:32 GMT -5
L: FWIW, I've never heard a ZM say anything other than that people must discover the truth for themselves. Yes, I've seen some hero worship in the Zen tradition, but the teachers themselves, without exception in my experience, have always reiterated the dictum set forth by the Buddha to "become a lamp unto yourself." The tradition has some rigid rules about format, but not about the fundamental importance of people verifying for themselves anything stated by anyone in a position of institutional importance. There may be a Zen teacher somewhere who doesn't support this idea, but I've never met one, and I've met and interacted with hundreds of people in that tradition.
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