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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 11:58:39 GMT -5
I have never denied that creation is perception,Did I ever do? That's the weaving part. The rending part comes when you try to separate creator from perceiver again.That's as much a divine act as the weaving though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 12:20:58 GMT -5
The Awareness that you are creates and perceives. Perceiving is clear. But creating is speculation. That's why Satch says he doesn't know what creates. Creating is only happening when you decide that what is in front of you is what you wanted.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 19:01:46 GMT -5
We're a bit infatuated with entities. We expect to find one at the core of every perception, every creation. Watch Gopal chase entities across the universe and beyond. What if there are no entities, just Intelligence, rapt in it's own dream of love and loss? I am not chasing, I am saying no such entity exist. Oh, sorry. So you agree with me that there is no entity anywhere?
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 19:03:48 GMT -5
Why do you think someone is creating the perception if there is no doer? Where does your perception come from then? That's the sort of question that had me thinking you were chasing entities. What's the purpose of the question, then?
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 19:05:52 GMT -5
How is your nightly dream created while you are busy slaying dragons? Is it not coming from the same mind that is experiencing the dream? yes, that's the question I have to ask you. While you are busy watching your nightly dream, who is creating it? Who? I basically stated that it's coming from the same mind that's experiencing it. That was the purpose of using the analogy.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 19:11:50 GMT -5
I know I am not a person. When you discover that you aren't either, this will be a very different conversation. I am more clear than you are! But you don't know that. Then this isn't true:"You are only perceiving, you are not creating, aren't you see this clearly?" It's only seemingly true if you are identified as the person.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 19:20:44 GMT -5
I do not have an answer for you. You are imposing your logically structured world view onto something beyond logic. I can conclude anything from what I know. I simply can't speculate something.
You see there is a perception and you are looking at it. So who is creating it? And also you proclaimed to have known the greater fac that awareness is the only that exist. If so, who is creating other than awareness? What's the problem do you see here? Enigma somehow knows the truth that awareness is creating those perception but he doesn't know how because he is busy looking at those perceptions.
What I don't know is what that means.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 19:26:31 GMT -5
In your way of looking at things, there is a creator and then there is a creation. You establish creation as objective, and this makes two. There is only what you are. There is only what you are implies only that . Your adding unnecessary layers . Just think about it .. There is only what you are .. It doesn't matter if you point to the creator, the moon or the pink elephant, there is only what you are .. You can come up with as many theories as there are species living on this planet, it doesn't change a thing about the initial statement. That's what I'm trying to point out to you. In what way do you think you are the moon?
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 19:35:25 GMT -5
An objective reality doesn't create confusion and adds up under scrutiny? Is that what you're saying? I don't have any problems with trees growing by their own creational accord without the need of being created via my perception . I don't have a problem with trees that existed before my physical birth . A tree can appear because a seed finds it's way deep within the soil and eventually takes root and sprouts above ground level . It has got now't to do with my perception capabilities but it has got everything to do with what we all are . Your world is one of natural laws and stuff and time and space. And yet you say that is all what you are. I'm just scrutinizing your ideas to see if they hold up, so please explain.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 19:40:34 GMT -5
We're a bit infatuated with entities. We expect to find one at the core of every perception, every creation. Watch Gopal chase entities across the universe and beyond. What if there are no entities, just Intelligence, rapt in it's own dream of love and loss? Intelligence would therefore be the entity that embodies the physical experience .. We can't just say there is 'intelligence' and no entity, when 'intelligence' as a given example would be what you are .. Intelligence that can do what eggsactly? Make tea, have babies? feel happy and sad and perceive the moon? Sounds like an entity of sorts .. It's not an entity in it's own right. It does not have it's own existence. Otherwise, there would be what you are, and also entities that exist apart from what you are. I say your theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 20:06:26 GMT -5
I am not chasing, I am saying no such entity exist. What is confused? Something that is not what you are? Do you believe that there is only what you are? And if there is only what you are how can there be confusion and clarity at the same time?And yet there is confusion and clarity in the world. How does your model explain that?
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 20:09:10 GMT -5
You are separating knowing and awareness . There are so many problems with your model . I am the only one here who is not separating the awareness from knowing. Rest of all here somehow at one level or another level separating both.
Coming to your point.
If you believe in Objective world, then awareness is receiving the perception from outer world, eh?
I don't see a big enough difference between awareness and knowing such that I can separate them even if I wanted to.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 20:11:27 GMT -5
I am saying no such entity exist. By your own theory you can't know that hehehe .. You can't know anything about 'another' right? The point of perception is not an entity. (it's a point of perception)
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2019 20:46:09 GMT -5
What is confused? Something that is not what you are? Do you believe that there is only what you are? And if there is only what you are how can there be confusion and clarity at the same time? I think you are not knowing about the argument which is going on now. People here including me don't believe in Objective outer world, so the problem is, everything exist in perception, while everything exist in perception, who is creating that perception? Some people like Satch say they don't know because If he admits that he creates then that would challenge his previous realization that he is not doer. Some people like Enigma says awareness creates and perceives, but he knows that he as awareness doesn't have the control over arising perceptions, so the question to him again is who creates?
(A)wareness is a concept that doesn't refer to personal awareness. They are the same but different.
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2019 0:38:17 GMT -5
How did you know what you know? Did the word consciousness come to you directly somehow .. How do you know that you are consciousness? If you had never heard of the word before are you saying you would still of had a realization of the word consciousness given to you in someway? I have realized what I AM so to speak and not once was there the mention or the thought that I AM consciousness .So I am dying to hear about your consciousness realization. Did the phrase 'I AM' come to you? If so, how?
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