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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2019 9:15:49 GMT -5
This is exactly what can be read between the lines as in scripture. Many of the events of the OT are a kind of parable. Jesus taught by parables, which are a kind of word picture. The language of essence and of the right brain/right hemisphere is symbol and image. In Hebrews it says many of these OT people and stories are types. A Biblical type is a kind of archetype. So, Jacob and Esau represent one man. Esau was the first born so was entitled to the blessing and the birthright. But he was not really interested in either. So Esau represents the "false sense of limited identity". So Jacob set a kind of trap for him. Esau went out hunting, but didn't get anything. Jacob cooked up some beans for him, told Esau, I will give you some beans for your birthright. To show how little Esau valued the birthright, he said OK, the birthright is not going to do me any good if I'm dead. A slight exaggeration. So the false sense of self does not really value anything spiritual, in and of itself. And later Jacob's mother (Rebecca) cooked up a plan for Jacob to steal the blessing from Esau. Esau was harry. His father Isaac couldn't see very well. So Rebecca got Esau to dress up so he would be harry, and ask for the blessing from Isaac. It worked and Isaac blessed Jacob thinking it was Esau. And Esau found out the deception and Jacob had to flee because Esau wanted to kill him. He was gone over 14 years. So the story of Jacob and Esau represents the passage from the false sense of self to true self. It's a rocky road. Karma is a pregnant dog. When Jacob ran away Rebecca told him to run to her family, so he ended up with Laban, who had two daughters. Jacob fell in love with Rachel. he made a pact with Laban, I will work for you for 7 years if I can marry Rachel. The deal was made. But on the wedding night Laban got Leah to decieve Jacob, so Jacob married Leah instead of Rachel. So then, Jacob had to agree to work for Laban another 7 years for Rachel. So Jacob had to learn the lesson not to deceive, by getting deceived. So through the school of hard knocks Esau/Jacob-false self became Jacob-true self. This is described in the two scriptures given earlier, Ephesians 4:22-24 & Colossians 3:9,10. This is described by John 3:3-10. There is really no end to the depth of the Bible. You can interpret 1000 ways like this, but I always read into the text which is there. Predestination of Bible can be expounded from the story of Esau and Jacob because Jacob was culled even while he was in his mother's womb and Esau was abnegated even while he was in the womb. The consequential of Easu and Jacob lies there and to express the consequential of predestination. But let's not go there. That's plenarily another story. Jesus said that John the Baptist is Elijah. He was pretty emphatic on that. That's pretty plain. That affirms reincarnation, does it not?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 9:43:00 GMT -5
Where did you get the idea that Hebrews was written by Paul? I didn't say Paul wrote Hebrews. Nobody knows who wrote Hebrews (I'm sure you know nobody knows who wrote Hebrews). It is just an important link between OT and NT. I am pretty sure you had that thought while you were writing it because you wrote "Paul was a learned man, he knew the OT scriptures well. The book of Hebrews is a very important NT book" Paul might have written Hebrews but no evidence found.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 9:43:00 GMT -5
Ok, so a man has to have faith in his brother Jesus, as the son of a King to be able to know his own wholeness? Fwiw, if someone asked me this, I'd say that they're being asked to turn to the inner silence of prayer, and look to any answers to any questions they have there. Well as you've pointed out that belief and faith are synonyms, I'll mention that prayer and meditation are synonyms too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 9:44:22 GMT -5
You can interpret 1000 ways like this, but I always read into the text which is there. Predestination of Bible can be expounded from the story of Esau and Jacob because Jacob was culled even while he was in his mother's womb and Esau was abnegated even while he was in the womb. The consequential of Easu and Jacob lies there and to express the consequential of predestination. But let's not go there. That's plenarily another story. Jesus said that John the Baptist is Elijah. He was pretty emphatic on that. That's pretty plain. That affirms reincarnation, does it not? Where did I deny reincarnation? Where did I even speak about reincarnation? Did I miss something?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 14:38:34 GMT -5
Yes, Wages of sin is death. Doesn't "death", in this case mean "end of the otherwise immortal soul"? .. as in "cast into a lake of fire", as opposed to "joining the Father, Son and Mother in heaven"? Isn't it the difference between resurrection, and no resurrection? And that's not to argue that the material aspects of what lots of Christians call sin, in moral terms, aren't sometimes materially deadly, either. I think this is why I love Pan's Labyrinth so much, because these live in an Underworld. Not a heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 14:39:35 GMT -5
Right, and that's what's meant by "death" here: that destruction, not just earthly death. My take is that this is all complete bullsh!t, as, what you are, is infinite, and indestructible. The metaphor of hell as some afterlife punishment is a childish distortion of the fact that most people turn much of their life into a walking hell, and the Buddha was much clearer on all of this. The real "death", in this instance, is the existential illusion. But the good news is that the resurrection is always and ever just one good deep breath away.
Our current spiritual conception can't be brought into Biblical discussion. Because even Jesus himself is not vigilant of the fact that consciousness creates the reality. He kens that everything that's transpiring is transpiring through him(He is witnessing), but he vigorously believes that those miracles are done by God The Father. He has additionally identified himself to be a son of God and additionally the Foretold messaiah, the reason is, a component of the future is reveal to him.
Or God the Cosmic Movement.
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Post by laughter on Dec 30, 2019 15:29:55 GMT -5
I think that one of the ways to understand that measure of what's going on in Christian churches that isn't the clockwork of the unconscious is the distinction between devotion and insight. For the person on a path of devotion, the false sense of self is a rebellion against God.God has way too many faces and so some of those faces have to be disregarded. It's inevitable inside such a complex world as it is now. Go back 2000 years and there was much less interference in sensory perception. That's an interesting point. I can really only imagine, but it would certainly seem to have been the case.
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Post by laughter on Dec 30, 2019 15:44:37 GMT -5
Fwiw, if someone asked me this, I'd say that they're being asked to turn to the inner silence of prayer, and look to any answers to any questions they have there. Well as you've pointed out that belief and faith are synonyms, I'll mention that prayer and meditation are synonyms too. The opposite actually, antonyms .. and that doesn't really quite capture the fullness of the distinction I'm interested in referring to. What I'd say is that meditation is prayer, but without asking or apologizing for anything. In it's purest form, meditation also has no specific point of concentrated attention, it's simply empty, but focused, attention on attention that has the potential to open into a self-sustaining awareness of awareness. I can see why the rituals and the litany's of Christian prayer developed the way they did. They offer a potential shortcut into that state of silent stillness, and are very accessible. They are a form of mind-talk designed to lead to a quiescence of ego-mind-talk. If it weren't for Shikantaza, I'd never have been able to appreciate that, or the mass.
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Post by laughter on Dec 30, 2019 15:49:34 GMT -5
Doesn't "death", in this case mean "end of the otherwise immortal soul"? .. as in "cast into a lake of fire", as opposed to "joining the Father, Son and Mother in heaven"? Isn't it the difference between resurrection, and no resurrection? And that's not to argue that the material aspects of what lots of Christians call sin, in moral terms, aren't sometimes materially deadly, either. I think this is why I love Pan's Labyrinth so much, because these live in an Underworld. Not a heaven. Billy Shakes new the score, and Western thought certainly seems to have matured over the past few generations on the notion of good and evil. Wide and popularized exposure to the Tao and the Noble Truths seems to me to have played a major role in that.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2019 16:13:44 GMT -5
I didn't say Paul wrote Hebrews. Nobody knows who wrote Hebrews (I'm sure you know nobody knows who wrote Hebrews). It is just an important link between OT and NT. I am pretty sure you had that thought while you were writing it because you wrote "Paul was a learned man, he knew the OT scriptures well. The book of Hebrews is a very important NT book" Paul might have written Hebrews but no evidence found. No, I've known for years nobody knows who wrote Hebrews. I think we've even discussed this before.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 30, 2019 16:20:47 GMT -5
Jesus said that John the Baptist is Elijah. He was pretty emphatic on that. That's pretty plain. That affirms reincarnation, does it not? Where did I deny reincarnation? Where did I even speak about reincarnation? Did I miss something? I was just giving an example. You said you read what's there. But this can't be done always with the Bible. Real information cannot be conveyed by words. Another example comes to mind. Once Jesus said, To be my follower you must eat my flesh and drink my blood. And scripture says many left him and ceased to follow him (because of what he said).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 16:40:54 GMT -5
Well as you've pointed out that belief and faith are synonyms, I'll mention that prayer and meditation are synonyms too. The opposite actually, antonyms .. and that doesn't really quite capture the fullness of the distinction I'm interested in referring to. What I'd say is that meditation is prayer, but without asking or apologizing for anything. In it's purest form, meditation also has no specific point of concentrated attention, it's simply empty, but focused, attention on attention that has the potential to open into a self-sustaining awareness of awareness. I can see why the rituals and the litany's of Christian prayer developed the way they did. They offer a potential shortcut into that state of silent stillness, and are very accessible. They are a form of mind-talk designed to lead to a quiescence of ego-mind-talk. If it weren't for Shikantaza, I'd never have been able to appreciate that, or the mass. Ah, I misunderstood then.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 16:47:24 GMT -5
God has way too many faces and so some of those faces have to be disregarded. It's inevitable inside such a complex world as it is now. Go back 2000 years and there was much less interference in sensory perception. That's an interesting point. I can really only imagine, but it would certainly seem to have been the case. Estimates suggest that there was only 300 million humans. One could probably hear a tree breathing in such quietude.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 16:53:18 GMT -5
Where did I deny reincarnation? Where did I even speak about reincarnation? Did I miss something? I was just giving an example. You said you read what's there. But this can't be done always with the Bible. Real information cannot be conveyed by words. Another example comes to mind. Once Jesus said, To be my follower you must eat my flesh and drink my blood. And scripture says many left him and ceased to follow him (because of what he said). Lol.. there are those that would love this to mean cannibalism and vampiric intent.. alas, disappointment shall be theirs.
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Post by laughter on Dec 30, 2019 19:28:36 GMT -5
That's an interesting point. I can really only imagine, but it would certainly seem to have been the case. Estimates suggest that there was only 300 million humans. One could probably hear a tree breathing in such quietude. one way that I've heard it put is that a typical English land worker from the middle ages likely would have never traveled more than 20 miles from home and it would have taken his or her entire lifetime to be exposed to the amount of information in one Wednesday issue of the New York Times.
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