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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 10:23:43 GMT -5
What you describe is exactly accurate. I agree that it is impossible to even "have" a thought without full attention, becoming engrossed in it. Usually for me it is a chain of thoughts, all related. "My dog is crying. Maybe she needs to be let out. But I want to finish my meditation. She just went to the bathroom on her walk. She wants to play. She's spoiled. I need to be more forceful with her. She takes advantage. She even bites me when she doesn't get her way." There are also little waves of emotion rising and falling that I note, playing accompaniment to the words. Back to the breath, finallly, to peace, but I recall the thinking, I note it. It is revealing, educational. This is what I refer to as "observing" self. So instead of trying to step back from the experience of phenomena, we do the opposite by putting attention on one object. In your practice it is breath. And the way to get to witnessing awareness is to experience finer and more subtle experience of breath so that it is transcended or let go of so that what remains is Awareness/Peace. The peace comes from the mind quieting. Peace, love, happiness is always there "underneath" the chatter from emotion. What I've found over time is that even in every day life while not sitting, I can find that peaceful space by focusing on the actual, what my hands are touching, what the breath feels like. The knotting in my stomach when the dog whines, the coolness of my bare feet on the tile. The hum of the air conditioning system. The squirrel running up my porch screen. Emotions are the biggest disruptors of this peace..There was no room for them. The discipline of practice was used to force them to quiet, unsuccessfully of course. Then I learned to give them room, to give them attention, to feel them, to let them move in me include them in the actual. There is no philosophy or mental mastication in this, only living. I don't care if the dog I'm petting is real or an appearance. I still sit, zazen, because it is like a dip in a soothing stream, refreshing. Fear is the hardest emotion to give space to. This is why talk of losing fear is troubling for me. It is a lie. I just sit with fear, accept it, make room for it. What I practice doing with everything that rises. This is why I don't call myself SR. It is constant practice, effort. Except when mushin happens.
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2019 10:36:51 GMT -5
Witnessing, at it's best, is about establishing a metaphorical distance between your sense of awareness and the content of your thoughts and emotions. A quiet body/mind is one that is spacious, and clear. The process is quite simple, and involves deliberately stepping-back and considering what it is that we're thinking or feeling. What is the source of the emotion? Why do we react to the things that we encounter the way that we do? Taking a breath before reacting, or looking back and determining why we reacted with sudden force, when that happens, can be particularly illuminating. Witnessing can neither be at its best or at its worst. There is either witnessing or not. What you describe is NOT witnessing or a process which leads to witnessing. What you describe is introspection, an analysis of what you are thinking and why. This is intellectual mind stuff, very far from the simplicity of witnessing which is passive and uninvolved in the thinking process. You cannot get to it by examining the content of your thoughts because to do so keeps you with thoughts and generates yet more thoughts to ponder about. This approach is in opposition to transcendence of thoughts. So we should not be concerned with the content of thoughts. No, I speak from the direct experience of applying attention to the the sensations that occur with my eyes closed, sitting silently. Can you sit quietly, without distraction, and for how long? How long can you maintain a clear, quiet, completely spacious state of body/mind free of thought or emotion before you find yourself lost in it again? If you don't consider this witnessing, that's fine, we can agree to disagree, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not the one here lost in mind. I assure you, it's quite possible to witness thought without generating more of it.
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Post by satchitananda on Oct 23, 2019 10:41:55 GMT -5
No, I speak from the direct experience of applying attention to the the sensations that occur with my eyes closed, sitting silently. Can you sit quietly, without distraction, and for how long? How long can you maintain a clear, quiet, completely spacious state of body/mind free of thought or emotion before you find yourself lost in it again? If you don't consider this witnessing, that's fine, we can agree to disagree, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not the one here lost in mind. considering what it is that we're thinking or feeling. What is the source of the emotion? Why do we react to the things that we encounter the way that we do? If you did that, would you be lost in mind do you think?
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2019 10:48:03 GMT -5
No, I speak from the direct experience of applying attention to the the sensations that occur with my eyes closed, sitting silently. Can you sit quietly, without distraction, and for how long? How long can you maintain a clear, quiet, completely spacious state of body/mind free of thought or emotion before you find yourself lost in it again? If you don't consider this witnessing, that's fine, we can agree to disagree, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not the one here lost in mind. considering what it is that we're thinking or feeling. What is the source of the emotion? Why do we react to the things that we encounter the way that we do? If you did that, would you be lost in mind do you think? Someone asking "what is the source of thought?" is engaged in self inquiry. Whether or not they get lost in mind pursuing the question depends upon how they go about the pursuit.
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Post by satchitananda on Oct 23, 2019 10:52:36 GMT -5
If you did that, would you be lost in mind do you think? Someone asking "what is the source of thought?" is engaged in self inquiry. Whether or not they get lost in mind pursuing the question depends upon how they go about the pursuit. Yes it does, particularly if you want to know the Why and How. The fact that you included them makes me wonder.
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2019 11:19:40 GMT -5
Someone asking "what is the source of thought?" is engaged in self inquiry. Whether or not they get lost in mind pursuing the question depends upon how they go about the pursuit. Yes it does, particularly if you want to know the Why and How. The fact that you included them makes me wonder. Returning to the pure, silent and open awareness of self-inquiry is only one facet of the potential process of becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of mind. There's a relative aspect to it as well. Some folks will be interested in that, some won't.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 13:03:53 GMT -5
Yes it does, particularly if you want to know the Why and How. The fact that you included them makes me wonder. Returning to the pure, silent and open awareness of self-inquiry is only one facet of the potential process of becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of mind. There's a relative aspect to it as well. Some folks will be interested in that, some won't. This is how vasanas, conditioning, comes to light. This is where I part company with most nondualists.
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2019 17:06:39 GMT -5
Returning to the pure, silent and open awareness of self-inquiry is only one facet of the potential process of becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of mind. There's a relative aspect to it as well. Some folks will be interested in that, some won't. This is how vasanas, conditioning, comes to light. This is where I part company with most nondualists. Yes well, this is the way I think of that. Perhaps some of the people disinterested in getting present to conditioning really didn't have many vasanas to begin with, or the ones they were involved with were shallow and/or they've worked on themselves to the extent where they're at a point of natural equilibrium. This isn't to say that "spiritual bypassing" isn't a thing, just to allow for the possibility that not everyone laying down a hard, non-dual message is doing that. I could also write something speaking to your point about the fear of death and the orientation to conditioning generally relative to self-realization .. but I don't want to presume. Please don't feel obligated to say that you're interested, 'cause I warn you up front, that I'd put on my "I'm an SR a$$hole" hat to write it -- but I'd make a deliberate, concerted effort to inject some humility into it.
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Post by satchitananda on Oct 23, 2019 22:53:13 GMT -5
This is how vasanas, conditioning, comes to light. This is where I part company with most nondualists. Yes well, this is the way I think of that. Perhaps some of the people disinterested in getting present to conditioning really didn't have many vasanas to begin with, or the ones they were involved with were shallow and/or they've worked on themselves to the extent where they're at a point of natural equilibrium. This isn't to say that "spiritual bypassing" isn't a thing, just to allow for the possibility that not everyone laying down a hard, non-dual message is doing that. I could also write something speaking to your point about the fear of death and the orientation to conditioning generally relative to self-realization .. but I don't want to presume. Please don't feel obligated to say that you're interested, 'cause I warn you up front, that I'd put on my "I'm an SR a$$hole" hat to write it -- but I'd make a deliberate, concerted effort to inject some humility into it. Well then. In all humility I proclaim that if you are established in Being then you have zero interest in content and dynamic of mind and you are unconcerned about your conditioning. That's why you can have peace of mind yet still think and act based on your vasanas. To be unconcerned. This has to be understood and will be when there is peace of mind.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 23:01:13 GMT -5
This is how vasanas, conditioning, comes to light. This is where I part company with most nondualists. Yes well, this is the way I think of that. Perhaps some of the people disinterested in getting present to conditioning really didn't have many vasanas to begin with, or the ones they were involved with were shallow and/or they've worked on themselves to the extent where they're at a point of natural equilibrium. This isn't to say that "spiritual bypassing" isn't a thing, just to allow for the possibility that not everyone laying down a hard, non-dual message is doing that. I could also write something speaking to your point about the fear of death and the orientation to conditioning generally relative to self-realization .. but I don't want to presume. Please don't feel obligated to say that you're interested, 'cause I warn you up front, that I'd put on my "I'm an SR a$$hole" hat to write it -- but I'd make a deliberate, concerted effort to inject some humility into it. Fear of death is an easy one. Like I said fools who believe they'll get sexed up in the afterlife have that. Fear of pain, that's a different story. Promise me that carrot and you'll interest me. Noone is selling that one because it is so easily disproven. Stick your finger in my illusory, but crazy, parrot's cage. You'll lose it, but you'll impress me. So sure be an SR a$$hole. I'm curious. Btw, it's also possible that those mental tendencies inhibit enlightenment. They keep the mental machine churning and well lubed with desire. I see them, the tendencies, in abundance in these posts, but demur from elaborating because its a road too well traveled and I live in a glass house. SR seems a bridge too far and I don't hear a lot of difference between those who claim to have crossed it and others, perhaps a bit less honesty. I am happy with my tedious lot. Where's the bliss? A little bit from Lolly, lately. Love is even more rare.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 23:51:14 GMT -5
Yes well, this is the way I think of that. Perhaps some of the people disinterested in getting present to conditioning really didn't have many vasanas to begin with, or the ones they were involved with were shallow and/or they've worked on themselves to the extent where they're at a point of natural equilibrium. This isn't to say that "spiritual bypassing" isn't a thing, just to allow for the possibility that not everyone laying down a hard, non-dual message is doing that. I could also write something speaking to your point about the fear of death and the orientation to conditioning generally relative to self-realization .. but I don't want to presume. Please don't feel obligated to say that you're interested, 'cause I warn you up front, that I'd put on my "I'm an SR a$$hole" hat to write it -- but I'd make a deliberate, concerted effort to inject some humility into it. Fear of death is an easy one. Like I said fools who believe they'll get sexed up in the afterlife have that. Fear of pain, that's a different story. Promise me that carrot and you'll interest me. Noone is selling that one because it is so easily disproven. Stick your finger in my illusory, but crazy, parrot's cage. You'll lose it, but you'll impress me. So sure be an SR a$$hole. I'm curious. Btw, it's also possible that those mental tendencies inhibit enlightenment. They keep the mental machine churning and well lubed with desire. I see them, the tendencies, in abundance in these posts, but demur from elaborating because its a road too well traveled and I live in a glass house. SR seems a bridge too far and I don't hear a lot of difference between those who claim to have crossed it and others, perhaps a bit less honesty. I am happy with my tedious lot. Where's the bliss? A little bit from Lolly, lately. Love is even more rare. Sounds pretty good actually.
"The path of awakening is not about positive emotions. On the contrary, enlightenment may not be easy or positive at all. It is not easy to have our illusions crushed. It is not easy to let go of long-held perceptions. We may experience great resistance to seeing through even those illusions that cause us the greatest amount of pain." Adya
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 0:43:23 GMT -5
Fear of death is an easy one. Like I said fools who believe they'll get sexed up in the afterlife have that. Fear of pain, that's a different story. Promise me that carrot and you'll interest me. Noone is selling that one because it is so easily disproven. Stick your finger in my illusory, but crazy, parrot's cage. You'll lose it, but you'll impress me. So sure be an SR a$$hole. I'm curious. Btw, it's also possible that those mental tendencies inhibit enlightenment. They keep the mental machine churning and well lubed with desire. I see them, the tendencies, in abundance in these posts, but demur from elaborating because its a road too well traveled and I live in a glass house. SR seems a bridge too far and I don't hear a lot of difference between those who claim to have crossed it and others, perhaps a bit less honesty. I am happy with my tedious lot. Where's the bliss? A little bit from Lolly, lately. Love is even more rare. Sounds pretty good actually.
"The path of awakening is not about positive emotions. On the contrary, enlightenment may not be easy or positive at all. It is not easy to have our illusions crushed. It is not easy to let go of long-held perceptions. We may experience great resistance to seeing through even those illusions that cause us the greatest amount of pain." Adya
Hey. What can I say. I like happy. I'll avoid the other stuff. Been there. Done that. Besides bravado from Adya is like pretend karate. Much more impressive coming from you given what you face. I'm curious what Laffy has to say about fear. Can't wait.
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Post by laughter on Oct 24, 2019 11:21:33 GMT -5
Yes well, this is the way I think of that. Perhaps some of the people disinterested in getting present to conditioning really didn't have many vasanas to begin with, or the ones they were involved with were shallow and/or they've worked on themselves to the extent where they're at a point of natural equilibrium. This isn't to say that "spiritual bypassing" isn't a thing, just to allow for the possibility that not everyone laying down a hard, non-dual message is doing that. I could also write something speaking to your point about the fear of death and the orientation to conditioning generally relative to self-realization .. but I don't want to presume. Please don't feel obligated to say that you're interested, 'cause I warn you up front, that I'd put on my "I'm an SR a$$hole" hat to write it -- but I'd make a deliberate, concerted effort to inject some humility into it. Fear of death is an easy one. Like I said fools who believe they'll get sexed up in the afterlife have that. Fear of pain, that's a different story. Promise me that carrot and you'll interest me. Noone is selling that one because it is so easily disproven. Stick your finger in my illusory, but crazy, parrot's cage. You'll lose it, but you'll impress me. So sure be an SR a$$hole. I'm curious. Btw, it's also possible that those mental tendencies inhibit enlightenment. They keep the mental machine churning and well lubed with desire. I see them, the tendencies, in abundance in these posts, but demur from elaborating because its a road too well traveled and I live in a glass house. SR seems a bridge too far and I don't hear a lot of difference between those who claim to have crossed it and others, perhaps a bit less honesty. I am happy with my tedious lot. Where's the bliss? A little bit from Lolly, lately. Love is even more rare. Belief in a fairytale about an afterlife can short-circuit the survival instinct, no doubt -- and when you think about that, it's really quite a testament to the power of mind. In less extreme versions, it can mitigate the fear and the dread. But when a truly "SR peep" tells you that they've lost the fear of death, it's not based on a belief in a fairytale. Of all the things people who claim SR write about, it's the one and only commonality I've been able to discern in the writing about how the experience of life unfolds after the realization. Some people will write about peace, joy and ease and equanimity, and while I can always see where they're coming from, that is inevitably, as all experience, presented in subjective terms. I read something once when I was in my early thirties about death. The author wrote something like this: "when I was young I never thought about it, but then, one day, the thought of my own death occurred to me. From then on, this would recur, at greater frequency as I got older, until one day, from that day onward, not a day went by when I didn't think of it at least once". Perhaps this acted as some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion but I found that the same happened for me. Every now and then, I'd contemplate not existing, and I'd feel a visceral panic at the thought -- it would be short, but would involve elevated heart rate and shortness of breath. I went looking for this, in the meditation, "afterward" .. nowhere to be found. And dude, I ain't got noooo explanation for what happens once the body goes, other than, in terms of anything that defines me as a human being in any conventional sense is bound to be inevitably and completely obliterated by time. I don't invest any hope in any sort of potential disembodied personal existence independent of a physical body. While I used to know this as a skeptic, it's different now, but not by much, in relative terms. That's insightful of you to see how these ideas you have about the "SR" might be points of attachment for the false sense of self. Bringing this to the forefront of mind is the first step, and I know you know what to do as the next. For as long as you think that SR is a step too far it's a step that won't happen. In terms of who to trust or who's full of sh!t - insofar as those thoughts might happen .. look inward to your own authority, and inquire as to: who is it that's interested in the possibility of truth?
There's more I could write about conditioning generally, but this is already a mini-wall, and I don't want to stretch your interest. So I'll just say this: this objection you have to the notion of pain is an opportunity for you, but not in any relative sense. For example, you'll never resolve it by discovering how some people can get quite expert at being free of it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 14:24:35 GMT -5
Sounds pretty good actually.
"The path of awakening is not about positive emotions. On the contrary, enlightenment may not be easy or positive at all. It is not easy to have our illusions crushed. It is not easy to let go of long-held perceptions. We may experience great resistance to seeing through even those illusions that cause us the greatest amount of pain." Adya
Hey. What can I say. I like happy. I'll avoid the other stuff. Been there. Done that. Besides bravado from Adya is like pretend karate. Much more impressive coming from you given what you face. I'm curious what Laffy has to say about fear. Can't wait. Yeah...Can't avoid that one. It comes built-in. Part and parcel of the deal.
Had a conversation recently with someone battling depression....he's been trying to not care about how he feels, trying to not 'like being happy' because he thinks that might make the depression go away.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 14:32:41 GMT -5
Fear of death is an easy one. Like I said fools who believe they'll get sexed up in the afterlife have that. Fear of pain, that's a different story. Promise me that carrot and you'll interest me. Noone is selling that one because it is so easily disproven. Stick your finger in my illusory, but crazy, parrot's cage. You'll lose it, but you'll impress me. So sure be an SR a$$hole. I'm curious. Btw, it's also possible that those mental tendencies inhibit enlightenment. They keep the mental machine churning and well lubed with desire. I see them, the tendencies, in abundance in these posts, but demur from elaborating because its a road too well traveled and I live in a glass house. SR seems a bridge too far and I don't hear a lot of difference between those who claim to have crossed it and others, perhaps a bit less honesty. I am happy with my tedious lot. Where's the bliss? A little bit from Lolly, lately. Love is even more rare. Belief in a fairytale about an afterlife can short-circuit the survival instinct, no doubt -- and when you think about that, it's really quite a testament to the power of mind. In less extreme versions, it can mitigate the fear and the dread. But when a truly "SR peep" tells you that they've lost the fear of death, it's not based on a belief in a fairytale. Of all the things people who claim SR write about, it's the one and only commonality I've been able to discern in the writing about how the experience of life unfolds after the realization. Some people will write about peace, joy and ease and equanimity, and while I can always see where they're coming from, that is inevitably, as all experience, presented in subjective terms. I read something once when I was in my early thirties about death. The author wrote something like this: "when I was young I never thought about it, but then, one day, the thought of my own death occurred to me. From then on, this would recur, at greater frequency as I got older, until one day, from that day onward, not a day went by when I didn't think of it at least once". Perhaps this acted as some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion but I found that the same happened for me. Every now and then, I'd contemplate not existing, and I'd feel a visceral panic at the thought -- it would be short, but would involve elevated heart rate and shortness of breath. I went looking for this, in the meditation, "afterward" .. nowhere to be found. And dude, I ain't got noooo explanation for what happens once the body goes, other than, in terms of anything that defines me as a human being in any conventional sense is bound to be inevitably and completely obliterated by time. I don't invest any hope in any sort of potential disembodied personal existence independent of a physical body. While I used to know this as a skeptic, it's different now, but not by much, in relative terms. That's insightful of you to see how these ideas you have about the "SR" might be points of attachment for the false sense of self. Bringing this to the forefront of mind is the first step, and I know you know what to do as the next. For as long as you think that SR is a step too far it's a step that won't happen. In terms of who to trust or who's full of sh!t - insofar as those thoughts might happen .. look inward to your own authority, and inquire as to: who is it that's interested in the possibility of truth?
There's more I could write about conditioning generally, but this is already a mini-wall, and I don't want to stretch your interest. So I'll just say this: this objection you have to the notion of pain is an opportunity for you, but not in any relative sense. For example, you'll never resolve it by discovering how some people can get quite expert at being free of it.
Like I told my shrink. I've been more often afraid of living than of dying. I can relate to welcoming death as an anesthetic. Pain's not cool. I don't like that aspect of death, but if it's quick and painless. Heck. If there is or isn't an afterlife doesn't matter. If there isn't, you won't live (after) to regret it. I fear having to watch loved ones suffer. That guy on the news who spoke of having to watch his wife drown during hurricane Dorian in the Bahamas scared the bejesus out of me. Now as to my potential for SR, your statement sounds a littlle cause and effecty. So a positive attitude increases the likelihood? I just know it's not in this body/mind's hands. Plus, I've seen enough to know, I ain't missing much. Not to offend anyone, because as normal, breathing, humans, this is a good lot. As God, whether in or out of a dream, well there are still some deficits--which I admittedly share, probably in greater proprtion than most.
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