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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 12, 2019 10:26:13 GMT -5
What are people's perceptions?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2019 11:07:48 GMT -5
What years are you talking about?
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Post by laughter on Jul 12, 2019 11:20:30 GMT -5
What are people's perceptions? Well, from what I can tell, in the U.S. there wasn't any major exposure until the 1950's. Even during the height of the cultural movements that were influenced by nonduality, which I would clock as in the late '60's, most of the people who encountered it didn't really understand the radical depth of it. Even those whose lives intersected with it - and in a major way - by Zen or TM or any of a number of other sub-cultures. Case in point, and more recent, would be the number of people who bought and read "The Power of Now". There were 3 million copies sold, and if you want to see how uncompromising and starkly non-dual some of it was then check out a few of Reefs' quotes from it. Some of the readers took a deep dive, other's, not so much. I've got no way to know the stats on that though. My impression of the arc of popular nonduality in the U.S. is that it's been coming and going in waves since the "Beat Generation". At this point there are actually some institutions that have formed that might perpetuate those waves - some of the Advaita societies, the Zendo's (giving rise, notably, to a guy like Adya) and the Science and Nonduality Conference, for example. My guess is that it will likely be on the fringe for the foreseeable future, and likely much longer, and will always disseminate in this sort of diffuse effect where the core of the pointing will be obscured or overlooked by the greatest number of people who encounter it. For that prediction I cite two phenomenon: (1) "A New Earth" (  ) sold almost 2x the copies of Now and (2) what I perceive as a gravity and drift toward a soft new-agism in the Batgap interviews, and this despite that I perceive Rick as having an impressive depth of existential insight. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 12, 2019 11:26:27 GMT -5
What years are you talking about? I dunno, let's say the last 50? But you can interpret as you like, over whatever set of years you think is the most insightful  |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 12, 2019 11:30:42 GMT -5
What are people's perceptions? Well, from what I can tell, in the U.S. there wasn't any major exposure until the 1950's. Even during the height of the cultural movements that were influenced by nonduality, which I would clock as in the late '60's, most of the people who encountered it didn't really understand the radical depth of it. Even those whose lives intersected with it - and in a major way - by Zen or TM or any of a number of other sub-cultures. Case in point, and more recent, would be the number of people who bought and read "The Power of Now". There were 3 million copies sold, and if you want to see how uncompromising and starkly non-dual some of it was then check out a few of Reefs' quotes from it. Some of the readers took a deep dive, other's, not so much. I've got no way to know the stats on that though. My impression of the arc of popular nonduality in the U.S. is that it's been coming and going in waves since the "Beat Generation". At this point there are actually some institutions that have formed that might perpetuate those waves - some of the Advaita societies, the Zendo's (giving rise, notably, to a guy like Adya) and the Science and Nonduality Conference, for example. My guess is that it will likely be on the fringe for the foreseeable future, and likely much longer, and will always disseminate in this sort of diffuse effect where the core of the pointing will be obscured or overlooked by the greatest number of people who encounter it. Yup, makes sense. I've encountered people who read The Power of Now with enthusiasm and came away with absolutely no idea it was anything more than a feel-good self-help book.  Interesting. Which probably mirrors the fact that what seems to be trendy right now are "experiences" -- ayahuasca rituals, sound healing, reiki, breathwork, 'transformative' or 'restorative' retreats and journeys, etc. The serious investigation of existential questions seems not as au courant. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2019 11:41:13 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2019 12:11:25 GMT -5
What years are you talking about? I dunno, let's say the last 50? But you can interpret as you like, over whatever set of years you think is the most insightful Seriously though. The human population is twice the amount that it was 50 years ago. So non-duality must be twice as popular. At their core all religions point to the same truth, so asking such a question is like saying are religions becoming more or less popular? Is there a need within human societies to understand religions, it appears so, as societies become increasingly more diversified. It seems right to understand the eternality of the present moment to be able to undo some teachings still operative in human cultures. The internet has changed the direction of human knowledge irreversibly and if that means that those interested in the truth of their being have access to ideas that make more sense of their experiences, then yes it would be unavoidable that branches of Hinduism wouldn't be explored, to the point where they appear 'popular'. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 12, 2019 12:14:25 GMT -5
What are people's perceptions? Well, from what I can tell, in the U.S. there wasn't any major exposure until the 1950's. Even during the height of the cultural movements that were influenced by nonduality, which I would clock as in the late '60's, most of the people who encountered it didn't really understand the radical depth of it. Even those whose lives intersected with it - and in a major way - by Zen or TM or any of a number of other sub-cultures. Case in point, and more recent, would be the number of people who bought and read "The Power of Now". There were 3 million copies sold, and if you want to see how uncompromising and starkly non-dual some of it was then check out a few of Reefs' quotes from it. Some of the readers took a deep dive, other's, not so much. I've got no way to know the stats on that though. My impression of the arc of popular nonduality in the U.S. is that it's been coming and going in waves since the "Beat Generation". At this point there are actually some institutions that have formed that might perpetuate those waves - some of the Advaita societies, the Zendo's (giving rise, notably, to a guy like Adya) and the Science and Nonduality Conference, for example. My guess is that it will likely be on the fringe for the foreseeable future, and likely much longer, and will always disseminate in this sort of diffuse effect where the core of the pointing will be obscured or overlooked by the greatest number of people who encounter it. For that prediction I cite two phenomenon: (1) "A New Earth" ( ) sold almost 2x the copies of Now and (2) what I perceive as a gravity and drift toward a soft new-agism in the Batgap interviews, and this despite that I perceive Rick as having an impressive depth of existential insight. That's my take as well. Only a small number of people become super serious about finding the truth. I've visited Unity churches, Spiritual life centers, and many other similar groups that "teach" oneness, but the undertstanding and interest are extremely superficial in most cases. In my entire state I only know of two people who have attained SR (there may be others, but I haven't heard of them). TAT attracts some serious seekers and I think there are 7 members (out of about 75) who found what they were looking for. Even in the Zen tradition I only met a few people who exhibited the kind of joie de vivre and equanimity that is usually a hallmark of a "finder." |
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Post by andrew on Jul 12, 2019 12:22:05 GMT -5
What are people's perceptions? my observation is that the concepts of 'enlightenment/liberation' were getting considerably more attention between 2000-2010, than they have in the 2nd decade of this century. Speaking optimistically, it could even be that that surge of energy in decade 1, has been disseminating throughout the collective in decade 2 i.e 'rubber meets road'. I think this is probably exemplified by the fact that Tolle has no new books this decade. In fact most of the authors I read in the first decade don't seem to have had much new to say in second decade. |
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Post by andrew on Jul 12, 2019 12:32:31 GMT -5
Well, from what I can tell, in the U.S. there wasn't any major exposure until the 1950's. Even during the height of the cultural movements that were influenced by nonduality, which I would clock as in the late '60's, most of the people who encountered it didn't really understand the radical depth of it. Even those whose lives intersected with it - and in a major way - by Zen or TM or any of a number of other sub-cultures. Case in point, and more recent, would be the number of people who bought and read "The Power of Now". There were 3 million copies sold, and if you want to see how uncompromising and starkly non-dual some of it was then check out a few of Reefs' quotes from it. Some of the readers took a deep dive, other's, not so much. I've got no way to know the stats on that though. My impression of the arc of popular nonduality in the U.S. is that it's been coming and going in waves since the "Beat Generation". At this point there are actually some institutions that have formed that might perpetuate those waves - some of the Advaita societies, the Zendo's (giving rise, notably, to a guy like Adya) and the Science and Nonduality Conference, for example. My guess is that it will likely be on the fringe for the foreseeable future, and likely much longer, and will always disseminate in this sort of diffuse effect where the core of the pointing will be obscured or overlooked by the greatest number of people who encounter it. Yup, makes sense. I've encountered people who read The Power of Now with enthusiasm and came away with absolutely no idea it was anything more than a feel-good self-help book. Interesting. Which probably mirrors the fact that what seems to be trendy right now are "experiences" -- ayahuasca rituals, sound healing, reiki, breathwork, 'transformative' or 'restorative' retreats and journeys, etc. The serious investigation of existential questions seems not as au courant. I think you're right about that being a bit trendy, but I think there's another growing trend that goes with that. In the UK...and I guess the US too.? there has been a big increase in 'mental health awareness'. So folks quite openly discuss CBD oil, counselling, meditation, yoga, quitting alcohol etc. This change is astonishing over the course of just 20 years. However, I would say that things like reiki, sound healing, crystals are still actually still mocked to an extent. People want to deal with their mental health situation in 'acceptable' ways. Personally, I don't even like the concept of 'mental health' but I do appreciate the fact that people can talk these days, because I recall the difficulties of feeling very isolated. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 12, 2019 13:17:36 GMT -5
Well, from what I can tell, in the U.S. there wasn't any major exposure until the 1950's. Even during the height of the cultural movements that were influenced by nonduality, which I would clock as in the late '60's, most of the people who encountered it didn't really understand the radical depth of it. Even those whose lives intersected with it - and in a major way - by Zen or TM or any of a number of other sub-cultures. Case in point, and more recent, would be the number of people who bought and read "The Power of Now". There were 3 million copies sold, and if you want to see how uncompromising and starkly non-dual some of it was then check out a few of Reefs' quotes from it. Some of the readers took a deep dive, other's, not so much. I've got no way to know the stats on that though. My impression of the arc of popular nonduality in the U.S. is that it's been coming and going in waves since the "Beat Generation". At this point there are actually some institutions that have formed that might perpetuate those waves - some of the Advaita societies, the Zendo's (giving rise, notably, to a guy like Adya) and the Science and Nonduality Conference, for example. My guess is that it will likely be on the fringe for the foreseeable future, and likely much longer, and will always disseminate in this sort of diffuse effect where the core of the pointing will be obscured or overlooked by the greatest number of people who encounter it. For that prediction I cite two phenomenon: (1) "A New Earth" ( ) sold almost 2x the copies of Now and (2) what I perceive as a gravity and drift toward a soft new-agism in the Batgap interviews, and this despite that I perceive Rick as having an impressive depth of existential insight. That's my take as well. Only a small number of people become super serious about finding the truth. I've visited Unity churches, Spiritual life centers, and many other similar groups that "teach" oneness, but the undertstanding and interest are extremely superficial in most cases. In my entire state I only know of two people who have attained SR (there may be others, but I haven't heard of them). TAT attracts some serious seekers and I think there are 7 members (out of about 75) who found what they were looking for. Even in the Zen tradition I only met a few people who exhibited the kind of joie de vivre and equanimity that is usually a hallmark of a "finder." Thanks for the perspective ZD. It's particularly interesting to me 'cause my perceptions are based almost entirely on media consumption and other 2nd hand sources. From these forum dialogs and media, seems to me that folks often infer something from the rarity you describe: an aggrandized specialness. This can be either positive or negative: people can sometimes idolize the natural state, or, on the other hand, get really skeptical about it, in either impersonal and conceptual terms or in terms specific to one individual. But this is one of those books that are elegantly bound, in a language they can't read, 'cause the rarity, in this case, doesn't equate to any sort of existential championship or elite status. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 12, 2019 14:37:37 GMT -5
That's my take as well. Only a small number of people become super serious about finding the truth. I've visited Unity churches, Spiritual life centers, and many other similar groups that "teach" oneness, but the undertstanding and interest are extremely superficial in most cases. In my entire state I only know of two people who have attained SR (there may be others, but I haven't heard of them). TAT attracts some serious seekers and I think there are 7 members (out of about 75) who found what they were looking for. Even in the Zen tradition I only met a few people who exhibited the kind of joie de vivre and equanimity that is usually a hallmark of a "finder." Thanks for the perspective ZD. It's particularly interesting to me 'cause my perceptions are based almost entirely on media consumption and other 2nd hand sources. From these forum dialogs and media, seems to me that folks often infer something from the rarity you describe: an aggrandized specialness. This can be either positive or negative: people can sometimes idolize the natural state, or, on the other hand, get really skeptical about it, in either impersonal and conceptual terms or in terms specific to one individual. But this is one of those books that are elegantly bound, in a language they can't read, 'cause the rarity, in this case, doesn't equate to any sort of existential championship or elite status. Yes, the "problem" I hear most about is either "feeling stuck" or feeling like a dry period has been entered in which nothing is happening. I can identify with both situations. In the Rinzai tradition of Zen when people work on koans, there is often a feeling of progress as they discover answers to koans, and as initial realizations often reinforce a sense of movement toward greater understanding. People realize that they've been living in a dream-like state of mind in the past, and they begin to pay more attention to the direct perception of whatever is happening in the present moment. This gives them the sense that they're living more fully in the NOW and gaining increased clarity about various issues. Sooner or later, however, realizations may cease to continue occurring, and difficult koans may fail to get resolved. This leads to a feeling of either becoming stuck or living in a sort of arid wasteland where all forward progress has been stymied. Both of these "problems" of course, are illusions associated with the idea that there is a "me" that made progress for a while, but eventually got bogged down. FWIW, after what seemed like fast progress with koans and several realizations, I went through a period of several years during which nothing significant seemed to be happening. I would then read a new book, become more motivated than usual, and practice more intensely. Sometimes this would result in resolving troublesome koans, and sometimes it would trigger new insights. After discovering the answers to perhaps two or three hundred formal koans and then resolving all of my personal koans (which I considered far more important than the formal koans), I reached a point where there was nothing left to do but what I was already doing--ATA-T on a daily basis and two or three types of sitting meditation pursued when I had free time in the evening. By that time I felt intuitively certain that if I just kept doing what I was doing sooner or later something would happen, and if nothing ever happened, there was nothing I could do about it. I knew that I did not feel free in the same way as I did after an initial dai kensho, but I had no idea why. I literally felt blocked in some strange way, as if there were some intangible barrier that prevented the sense of freedom that i remembered so well from 15 years earlier. This led to a lot of reflection about how the sense of selfhood would often disappear, but always eventually returned. That question gradually turned into a personal koan, the form of which was, "How is it possible to stay in a unity conscious state of mind permanently?" After the "me" vanished, and the sense of freedom that I remembered so well, returned for good, I finally understood. As you know, I consider the sense of selfhood some sort of thought structure, and when that collapses, the whole crazy game gets exposed. All that I can tell people who are stuck in the illusion of selfhood is to keep attention focused as much as possible upon what's happening in the present moment, to keep pursuing whatever meditative practice they most strongly resonate with, and to use self-referential thoughts like a dharma bell reminder to shift attention away from thoughts of either progress or lack of progress. Art Ticknor gives the same sort of advice. Bart Marshall flew over to talk with Douglas Harding about this issue when Harding was about 100 years old. As Bart was leaving, Harding said to him, "Simplify" and that did the trick. Either on the plane home or shortly after he arrived, he finally found what he had been looking for. Tess Hughes calls it "The Solid Ground of Being." She told me that she had always wondered where she had been located before she was born, and she eventually found out. I've gone on silent retreats with lots of different groups of people over the last fifteen years, but IMO the group with the largest number of serious seekers is TAT. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 13, 2019 7:27:36 GMT -5
Yup, makes sense. I've encountered people who read The Power of Now with enthusiasm and came away with absolutely no idea it was anything more than a feel-good self-help book. Interesting. Which probably mirrors the fact that what seems to be trendy right now are "experiences" -- ayahuasca rituals, sound healing, reiki, breathwork, 'transformative' or 'restorative' retreats and journeys, etc. The serious investigation of existential questions seems not as au courant. I think you're right about that being a bit trendy, but I think there's another growing trend that goes with that. In the UK...and I guess the US too.? there has been a big increase in 'mental health awareness'. So folks quite openly discuss CBD oil, counselling, meditation, yoga, quitting alcohol etc. This change is astonishing over the course of just 20 years. However, I would say that things like reiki, sound healing, crystals are still actually still mocked to an extent. People want to deal with their mental health situation in 'acceptable' ways. Personally, I don't even like the concept of 'mental health' but I do appreciate the fact that people can talk these days, because I recall the difficulties of feeling very isolated. True! Mental health is definitely more talked-about than before... though sadly, in the US at least, the most sophisticated therapy -- psychoanalysis -- is out of vogue because it is time-consuming and difficult to comprehend compared to more mechanical, simplistic therapies, or, of course, pharmaceuticals. |
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 13, 2019 7:34:15 GMT -5
The neo advaita satsang business sucks!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2019 7:43:59 GMT -5
The neo advaita satsang business sucks! When was the last time you attended a neo advaita satsang? |
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) sold almost 2x the copies of Now and (2) what I perceive as a gravity and drift toward a soft new-agism in the Batgap interviews, and this despite that I perceive Rick as having an impressive depth of existential insight.
