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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 13:27:55 GMT -5
In the realm of the mind there is cause and effect. In the realm prior to mind and conceptualisation there is only what's happening. So don't negate cause and effect in the realm of mind and things, and don't believe in cause and effect in the realm of God. It's so simple, down here on Earth! Feet are such a beautiful invention, they'll take you all around the world without ever leaving the ends of your legs.
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Post by laughter on Jul 8, 2019 13:33:32 GMT -5
That's one interpretation. There are others. One is "suffering has a cause". That's good (and I think better than the one you gave), but I don't think it goes far enough. I haven't written that the subject/object split is the cause of suffering. What I did write was that the subject/object split underlies the existential illusion. The 2nd noble truth is that the existential illusion is the cause of suffering. It's not my interpretation of the second noble truth. It's what Buddha actually said. You are making up your own version of what you want it to be. You seem to me to express here a faith and trust in the authorities behind certain specific translations you've read. My experience reading this material is that the interpretations of it are quite varied, and I prefer to rely on my internal authority for verifying which one is correct, yes.
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Post by laughter on Jul 8, 2019 13:36:00 GMT -5
It's so simple, down here on Earth! Feet are such a beautiful invention, they'll take you all around the world without ever leaving the ends of your legs. if only peeps had roots it wouldn't be so easy to fool them on this issue of where Earth ends and they begin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 13:37:45 GMT -5
Don't encourage that insanity. Paradoxes are interesting thought killers. The mind has nowhere to go. This is why the intellect despises them. heh heh .. well, this gal, for one, has an impressive intellect and an interest in various paradox as entertaining puzzles. I wasn't even aware of how many developments in mathematics started out that way until I stumbled onto her. My favorite is Goedel's Incompleteness theorem. In every "closed" system there is at least one truth that is unprovable.
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Post by laughter on Jul 8, 2019 13:50:35 GMT -5
heh heh .. well, this gal, for one, has an impressive intellect and an interest in various paradox as entertaining puzzles. I wasn't even aware of how many developments in mathematics started out that way until I stumbled onto her. My favorite is Goedel's Incompleteness theorem. In every "closed" system there is at least one truth that is unprovable. It's a clue to the mind about the ineffable.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 8, 2019 14:55:35 GMT -5
For the one who has never thought, thought is recommended. For the one to whom thought has become a trap, no-thought is recommended. Have never known one who has never thought. Thought makes one. The I thought. To all of us seekers thought is the trap. Not "never thought" in that sense. "Never thought" in the sense of people who are basically unreflective and have no capacity for introspection or abstract thought. First you have to become reflective, question, and use logic. Then you go beyond logic. But you have to start developing those capacities.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 15:06:28 GMT -5
Feet are such a beautiful invention, they'll take you all around the world without ever leaving the ends of your legs. if only peeps had roots it wouldn't be so easy to fool them on this issue of where Earth ends and they begin. Hmm.. that may well be true.
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Post by lolly on Jul 9, 2019 4:50:56 GMT -5
In the kamma version the cause is not an effect. Unlike the physical version where action and reaction are arbitarily defined, being equal, in the kamma version, the cause is not subject to circumstance. Buddha defined kamma as volition so that folk would accept their circumstances as the product of past volition and realise there is nothing to do about what already is.
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Post by lolly on Jul 9, 2019 5:00:19 GMT -5
It's not my interpretation of the second noble truth. It's what Buddha actually said. You are making up your own version of what you want it to be. You seem to me to express here a faith and trust in the authorities behind certain specific translations you've read. My experience reading this material is that the interpretations of it are quite varied, and I prefer to rely on my internal authority for verifying which one is correct, yes. The 2NT is 'suffering has a cause' by any account of Buddhism, and there is a great deal of elaboration on that in the literature. though Buddha cited 'craving' as the cause of suffering, it shouldn't be taken so simply as if 'that's the answer'. The main principle of Buddhist ways is to see for yourself, and mindful meditation, insight meditation, vipashna, just roses by other names is 'the way' expressed by the 4thNT, but meditation is a pretty tricky subject to cover as well, as it involves deep subtlety and great nuance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 6:09:55 GMT -5
You seem to me to express here a faith and trust in the authorities behind certain specific translations you've read. My experience reading this material is that the interpretations of it are quite varied, and I prefer to rely on my internal authority for verifying which one is correct, yes. The 2NT is 'suffering has a cause' by any account of Buddhism, and there is a great deal of elaboration on that in the literature. though Buddha cited 'craving' as the cause of suffering, it shouldn't be taken so simply as if 'that's the answer'. The main principle of Buddhist ways is to see for yourself, and mindful meditation, insight meditation, vipashna, just roses by other names is 'the way' expressed by the 4thNT, but meditation is a pretty tricky subject to cover as well, as it involves deep subtlety and great nuance. Isn't craving an urgency of the mind, that wants what isn't right now, to be right now?
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Post by zendancer on Jul 9, 2019 7:53:06 GMT -5
It's not my interpretation of the second noble truth. It's what Buddha actually said. You are making up your own version of what you want it to be. You seem to me to express here a faith and trust in the authorities behind certain specific translations you've read. My experience reading this material is that the interpretations of it are quite varied, and I prefer to rely on my internal authority for verifying which one is correct, yes. Same here.
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 9, 2019 9:19:01 GMT -5
You seem to me to express here a faith and trust in the authorities behind certain specific translations you've read. My experience reading this material is that the interpretations of it are quite varied, and I prefer to rely on my internal authority for verifying which one is correct, yes. Same here. I'm just loving the internal authority of you guys, but if you look at the text from Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, there isn't a lot of wriggle room regarding interpretation. I do appreciate that it's great fun getting into a spirituality forum and making anything mean what you want it to mean. I get that. Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering. Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving [taṇhā, "thirst"] which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming. Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it. Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is this noble eightfold path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
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Post by laughter on Jul 9, 2019 10:28:50 GMT -5
You seem to me to express here a faith and trust in the authorities behind certain specific translations you've read. My experience reading this material is that the interpretations of it are quite varied, and I prefer to rely on my internal authority for verifying which one is correct, yes. The 2NT is 'suffering has a cause' by any account of Buddhism, and there is a great deal of elaboration on that in the literature. though Buddha cited 'craving' as the cause of suffering, it shouldn't be taken so simply as if 'that's the answer'. The main principle of Buddhist ways is to see for yourself, and mindful meditation, insight meditation, vipashna, just roses by other names is 'the way' expressed by the 4thNT, but meditation is a pretty tricky subject to cover as well, as it involves deep subtlety and great nuance. Yes, the nuance and subtlety of meditation is a mirror of the myriad possible depth of human experience, but even that isn't enough to capture and convey the doing of it. There are no bounds, there is no limit, there is only, what is. There is a richness to the texture of life that is quite literally, priceless. The presence, in getting present, is spacious, vast, and majestic, and the insight into it can't help but drop one to their knees. So, it seems to me that the third truth might be the most controversial -- even more so than the question of how to approach the meditation -- because the human experience is such a big tent. Can suffering ever really and permanently end? There's no intellectual case that can be made that it can, and any emotional involvement on the question is bound to deny that possibility. But while it's intellectually indefensible, there definitely is the possibility of a binary event, an on/off switch, and this is what's commonly referred to on this forum as "self-realization". Now, the particulars of what ends, that's difficult to gain consensus on, even between people who agree and express genuine insight on these topics of suffering, realization and experience. The question of whether or not the event of self-realization is like any other conventional event subject to causation is existential: "how does it happen? why does it happen?". As with any existential question, the low-hanging fruit is to point out what is obviously and clearly not so. If it were possible to condition a human being into self-realization by fine-tuning them like a race car, then after all these thousands of years, we likely would have figured that out, because self-realization is a topic that most people who come to understand it to any depth, and who are adult enough to admit that it's something they haven't encountered, inevitably get very interested in.
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Post by andrew on Jul 9, 2019 10:38:51 GMT -5
The 2NT is 'suffering has a cause' by any account of Buddhism, and there is a great deal of elaboration on that in the literature. though Buddha cited 'craving' as the cause of suffering, it shouldn't be taken so simply as if 'that's the answer'. The main principle of Buddhist ways is to see for yourself, and mindful meditation, insight meditation, vipashna, just roses by other names is 'the way' expressed by the 4thNT, but meditation is a pretty tricky subject to cover as well, as it involves deep subtlety and great nuance. Yes, the nuance and subtlety of meditation is a mirror of the myriad possible depth of human experience, but even that isn't enough to capture and convey the doing of it. There are no bounds, there is no limit, there is only, what is. There is a richness to the texture of life that is quite literally, priceless. The presence, in getting present, is spacious, vast, and majestic, and the insight into it can't help but drop one to their knees. So, it seems to me that the third truth might be the most controversial -- even more so than the question of how to approach the meditation -- because the human experience is such a big tent. Can suffering ever really and permanently end? There's no intellectual case that can be made that it can, and any emotional involvement on the question is bound to deny that possibility. But while it's intellectually indefensible, there definitely is the possibility of a binary event, an on/off switch, and this is what's commonly referred to on this forum as "self-realization". Now, the particulars of what ends, that's difficult to gain consensus on, even between people who agree and express genuine insight on these topics of suffering, realization and experience. The question of whether or not the event of self-realization is like any other conventional event subject to causation is existential: "how does it happen? why does it happen?". As with any existential question, the low-hanging fruit is to point out what is obviously and clearly not so. If it were possible to condition a human being into self-realization by fine-tuning them like a race car, then after all these thousands of years, we likely would have figured that out, because self-realization is a topic that most people who come to understand it to any depth, and who are adult enough to admit that it's something they haven't encountered, inevitably get very interested in. though by the same token you also can't condition a person to be a cook, footballer or artist etc...you can make what seems to be the right moves, but there's no guarantee. In the UK, there' a lot of youngsters with a lot of football talent and a lot of dedication, but ultimately,it has to be written in the stars. What's that word...perhaps...'serendipity' is required.
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Post by laughter on Jul 9, 2019 10:43:18 GMT -5
I'm just loving the internal authority of you guys, but if you look at the text from Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, there isn't a lot of wriggle room regarding interpretation. I do appreciate that it's great fun getting into a spirituality forum and making anything mean what you want it to mean. I get that. Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering. Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving [taṇhā, "thirst"] which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming. Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it. Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is this noble eightfold path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. Birth and death are only a rumor, and it is mistaking these rumors for fact that are at the root of craving and desire. The end of this mistake is the death before dying. After that, a woman (or man, as the case may be), can still arouse your interest - and passionately so - but absent any possibility of frustration. Fruit still tastes sweet, and hot days still make you sweaty and uncomfortable, and if you don't get enough exercise you'll still get fat, but it'll be impossible for you to regret any of it, in the absence of the source of regret.
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