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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 7:27:03 GMT -5
What is interesting to this mind is how one can write convincingly to negate cause and effect and not see the contradiction inherent in that endeavor and why it doesn't give one pause. Cause and effect are the common-sense experience of the every day, and it's the basis of how folks make sense of the world with intellect. But this subject/object split that underlies it is the basis for the existential illusion. This is the reason for the extremity of the argument against it, which isn't philosophical: confronting the everyday joe-mind with a stark, counter-intuitive truth. I see what you're saying. But these arguments appeal to the intellect. And often appropriated by it. So joe-mind deludes himself. Then there this somewhat fanatical attachment to a purely intellectual understanding. This is why experience, a shift there-in, is essential.
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 8, 2019 7:50:13 GMT -5
What is interesting to this mind is how one can write convincingly to negate cause and effect and not see the contradiction inherent in that endeavor and why it doesn't give one pause. Cause and effect are the common-sense experience of the every day, and it's the basis of how folks make sense of the world with intellect. But this subject/object split that underlies it is the basis for the existential illusion. This is the reason for the extremity of the argument against it, which isn't philosophical: confronting the everyday joe-mind with a stark, counter-intuitive truth. Nah, dodging a rock isn't at all counter intuitive. You talkin' about that weird nonduality stuff.
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Post by laughter on Jul 8, 2019 8:18:33 GMT -5
Cause and effect are the common-sense experience of the every day, and it's the basis of how folks make sense of the world with intellect. But this subject/object split that underlies it is the basis for the existential illusion. This is the reason for the extremity of the argument against it, which isn't philosophical: confronting the everyday joe-mind with a stark, counter-intuitive truth. I see what you're saying. But these arguments appeal to the intellect. And often appropriated by it. So joe-mind deludes himself. Then there this somewhat fanatical attachment to a purely intellectual understanding. This is why experience, a shift there-in, is essential. That can happen, yes, but the intellect has no place in trying to interpret the pointing, and ain't invited to the party. The signs that it's crashed it are hyperminding and spinning, especially around the topic of paradox. The Rinzai maniacs contemplate all those crazy koans and say that they have to be answered by breathing them and meditating on them by sitting in silence .. with no thinking about them allowed. They seem to be onto something.
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Post by laughter on Jul 8, 2019 8:19:49 GMT -5
Cause and effect are the common-sense experience of the every day, and it's the basis of how folks make sense of the world with intellect. But this subject/object split that underlies it is the basis for the existential illusion. This is the reason for the extremity of the argument against it, which isn't philosophical: confronting the everyday joe-mind with a stark, counter-intuitive truth. Nah, dodging a rock isn't at all counter intuitive. You talkin' about that weird nonduality stuff. Didn't say it was.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 8:33:33 GMT -5
I see what you're saying. But these arguments appeal to the intellect. And often appropriated by it. So joe-mind deludes himself. Then there this somewhat fanatical attachment to a purely intellectual understanding. This is why experience, a shift there-in, is essential. That can happen, yes, but the intellect has no place in trying to interpret the pointing, and ain't invited to the party. The signs that it's crashed it are hyperminding and spinning, especially around the topic of paradox. The Rinzai maniacs contemplate all those crazy koans and say that they have to be answered by breathing them and meditating on them by sitting in silence .. with no thinking about them allowed. They seem to be onto something. Don't encourage that insanity. Paradoxes are interesting thought killers. The mind has nowhere to go. This is why the intellect despises them.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 8, 2019 9:06:26 GMT -5
That can happen, yes, but the intellect has no place in trying to interpret the pointing, and ain't invited to the party. The signs that it's crashed it are hyperminding and spinning, especially around the topic of paradox. The Rinzai maniacs contemplate all those crazy koans and say that they have to be answered by breathing them and meditating on them by sitting in silence .. with no thinking about them allowed. They seem to be onto something. Don't encourage that insanity. Paradoxes are interesting thought killers. The mind has nowhere to go. This is why the intellect despises them. For the one who has never thought, thought is recommended. For the one to whom thought has become a trap, no-thought is recommended.
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 8, 2019 9:15:04 GMT -5
Nah, dodging a rock isn't at all counter intuitive. You talkin' about that weird nonduality stuff. Didn't say it was. What I find interesting about your comment is that you start off by saying that cause and effect is common sense but then feel the need to find some nondual reason why it isn't really like that. Is the illusion of the subject object split a problem. If it is why would it be?
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Post by laughter on Jul 8, 2019 12:07:28 GMT -5
Didn't say it was. What I find interesting about your comment is that you start off by saying that cause and effect is common sense but then feel the need to find some nondual reason why it isn't really like that. Is the illusion of the subject object split a problem. If it is why would it be? Well, first of all, the subject/object split isn't illusion, but it is a creation of mind. But as far as the problematic nature of the existential illusion is concerned, some of the Buddhists have a view of the 2nd noble truth that is existentially correct. Would you like it spelled out beyond that?
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Post by laughter on Jul 8, 2019 12:14:59 GMT -5
That can happen, yes, but the intellect has no place in trying to interpret the pointing, and ain't invited to the party. The signs that it's crashed it are hyperminding and spinning, especially around the topic of paradox. The Rinzai maniacs contemplate all those crazy koans and say that they have to be answered by breathing them and meditating on them by sitting in silence .. with no thinking about them allowed. They seem to be onto something. Don't encourage that insanity. Paradoxes are interesting thought killers. The mind has nowhere to go. This is why the intellect despises them. heh heh .. well, this gal, for one, has an impressive intellect and an interest in various paradox as entertaining puzzles. I wasn't even aware of how many developments in mathematics started out that way until I stumbled onto her.
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 8, 2019 12:41:55 GMT -5
What I find interesting about your comment is that you start off by saying that cause and effect is common sense but then feel the need to find some nondual reason why it isn't really like that. Is the illusion of the subject object split a problem. If it is why would it be? Well, first of all, the subject/object split isn't illusion, but it is a creation of mind. But as far as the problematic nature of the existential illusion is concerned, some of the Buddhists have a view of the 2nd noble truth that is existentially correct. Would you like it spelled out beyond that? The second noble truth says that desire, craving and ignorance leads to suffering, not a split between subject and object, observer and observed.
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Post by laughter on Jul 8, 2019 13:04:56 GMT -5
Well, first of all, the subject/object split isn't illusion, but it is a creation of mind. But as far as the problematic nature of the existential illusion is concerned, some of the Buddhists have a view of the 2nd noble truth that is existentially correct. Would you like it spelled out beyond that? The second noble truth says that desire, craving and ignorance leads to suffering, not a split between subject and object, observer and observed. That's one interpretation. There are others. One is "suffering has a cause". That's good (and I think better than the one you gave), but I don't think it goes far enough. I haven't written that the subject/object split is the cause of suffering. What I did write was that the subject/object split underlies the existential illusion. The 2nd noble truth is that the existential illusion is the cause of suffering.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 8, 2019 13:16:39 GMT -5
That can happen, yes, but the intellect has no place in trying to interpret the pointing, and ain't invited to the party. The signs that it's crashed it are hyperminding and spinning, especially around the topic of paradox. The Rinzai maniacs contemplate all those crazy koans and say that they have to be answered by breathing them and meditating on them by sitting in silence .. with no thinking about them allowed. They seem to be onto something. Don't encourage that insanity. Paradoxes are interesting thought killers. The mind has nowhere to go. This is why the intellect despises them. Maybe for some folks that's true, but that wasn't the case for me. I was highly intellectual, but after some teachers explained how koans work, and I discovered that answers could be found via meditation, I found them to be fascinating doorways that led beyond the intellect to what I call "body knowledge." As I've mentioned in the past, little children can often answer koans, but as they grow older, they become unable to do so because their thinking begins to obscure the obvious. The body, which includes the subconscious, understands reality directly, so when thinking stops, or is short-circuited, answers to koans suddenly rise to the level of consciousness. In the Korean Zen tradition, teachers tell students that if they don't know the answer to a koan, they should first slap the floor--which is a broad answer to any koan. Sometimes the open-handed slap short circuits the intellect (by taking the mind off the koan for a moment), and the answer suddenly appears. The first time it happened to me in an interview I was utterly astonished. I knew the koan, and I knew that I didn't know the answer to it, but when I slapped the floor, the answer instantaneously became obvious. It's been my experience that personal koans are the most important koans of all. Any question that arises in the intellect can be resolved by simply becoming silent and bearing in mind what one wants to know. In some cases it only takes thirty minutes of silence, and in other cases it may take several hours or days, but the body already knows the answer, and the only thing necessary is becoming silent enough for the intellect to discover that the body already knows. In Christianity this is often referred to as "the small voice within." As Jesus said, "Ask and you will receive."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 13:19:19 GMT -5
Don't encourage that insanity. Paradoxes are interesting thought killers. The mind has nowhere to go. This is why the intellect despises them. For the one who has never thought, thought is recommended. For the one to whom thought has become a trap, no-thought is recommended. Have never known one who has never thought. Thought makes one. The I thought. To all of us seekers thought is the trap.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 13:24:29 GMT -5
In the realm of the mind there is cause and effect. In the realm prior to mind and conceptualisation there is only what's happening. So don't negate cause and effect in the realm of mind and things, and don't believe in cause and effect in the realm of God. I get it. In the realm of mind this rock I've thrown at your head is real. In the realm prior to mind there is throwing, hurting and ducking but no you engaged in all these. They're just happening. You haven't thrown a rock at my head.
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 8, 2019 13:26:19 GMT -5
The second noble truth says that desire, craving and ignorance leads to suffering, not a split between subject and object, observer and observed. That's one interpretation. There are others. One is "suffering has a cause". That's good (and I think better than the one you gave), but I don't think it goes far enough. I haven't written that the subject/object split is the cause of suffering. What I did write was that the subject/object split underlies the existential illusion. The 2nd noble truth is that the existential illusion is the cause of suffering. It's not my interpretation of the second noble truth. It's what Buddha actually said. You are making up your own version of what you want it to be.
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