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Post by satchitananda on Jul 17, 2019 20:45:15 GMT -5
Actual "Anger," that is, the sense that life is unfolding in a way that is fundamentally wrong, in a manner that is fundamentally not as it should be, that someone or something is the cause, is to blame, plain and simply does not happen in a true 'sage,' (one who is SR) as those delusions have been seen through in SR. If those delusions are in play, then plain and simply, the one you thought was a sage, is not. How about actual laughter. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual compassion. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual empathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual concern. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual tears for the suffering of others. Could that happen in a sage? How about disapproval and admonishment for wrongdoing and bad behavior in others. Could that happen in a sage? How about sympathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about sharing your food with others. Could that happen in a sage? How about acting like a human in a body. Could that happen in a sage? How about feeling pain from a bee sting. Could that happen in a sage? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 23:34:01 GMT -5
Actual "Anger," that is, the sense that life is unfolding in a way that is fundamentally wrong, in a manner that is fundamentally not as it should be, that someone or something is the cause, is to blame, plain and simply does not happen in a true 'sage,' (one who is SR) as those delusions have been seen through in SR. If those delusions are in play, then plain and simply, the one you thought was a sage, is not. How about actual laughter. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual compassion. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual empathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual concern. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual tears for the suffering of others. Could that happen in a sage?
How about disapproval and admonishment for wrongdoing and bad behavior in others. Could that happen in a sage? How about sympathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about sharing your food with others. Could that happen in a sage? How about acting like a human in a body. Could that happen in a sage? How about feeling pain from a bee sting. Could that happen in a sage? Just pointing out how quickly you go from crying for others to deciding that it's their own fault anyway. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 18, 2019 9:00:12 GMT -5
Nobody's going to argue that anyone's behavior is 100% predictable. But I don't agree with the implication that SR has no effect on behavior or that behavior can't be predicted in a general sense. I believe there are three reasons why we're surprised by the behavior of the Self Realized, and none has to do with the unpredictability of THIS. Firstly, the belief that one has Self realized may be false. Secondly, there is a difference between SR and purification. Often, it seems mind is prematurely abandoned and left to function according to it's pre-existing pathology. Thirdly, most peeps have a long list of judgments regarding behavior, especially spiritual behavior, and most of them are culturally based or fear based or both. The natural functioning of mind doesn't include those value judgments and is far more 'organic'. SR is not a thing, a process, or a state. In truth there are no "people who are Self-Realized." SR is the realization that there are no people. So the idea that there is some predictable effect of SR on people's behavior is a fundamental misunderstanding of what SR is. There is no separate, volitional person, which does not mean there isn't an individuation through which THIS is experiencing; A mind/body that is primarily influenced by it's beliefs. Those beliefs change as mind is informed by the realization. The realization that there is no SVP informs mind that there is nobody to blame. The belief that somebody has done something they should not have done is the foundation of anger. There is no volition through which someone could have done something other than what they did. It's not possible for blame and value judgment to occur under these circumstances. There is no mystery here, and it is all quite predictable. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 18, 2019 9:15:51 GMT -5
Actual "Anger," that is, the sense that life is unfolding in a way that is fundamentally wrong, in a manner that is fundamentally not as it should be, that someone or something is the cause, is to blame, plain and simply does not happen in a true 'sage,' (one who is SR) as those delusions have been seen through in SR. If those delusions are in play, then plain and simply, the one you thought was a sage, is not. How about actual laughter. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual compassion. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual empathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual concern. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual tears for the suffering of others. Could that happen in a sage? How about disapproval and admonishment for wrongdoing and bad behavior in others. Could that happen in a sage? How about sympathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about sharing your food with others. Could that happen in a sage? How about acting like a human in a body. Could that happen in a sage? How about feeling pain from a bee sting. Could that happen in a sage? Nobody is suggesting the SR can't feel. All natural feelings are available, but the anger that comes from blame and value judgment is not natural, it's a pathology resulting from the delusion that something should not have happened. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 18, 2019 9:18:35 GMT -5
How about actual laughter. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual compassion. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual empathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual concern. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual tears for the suffering of others. Could that happen in a sage?
How about disapproval and admonishment for wrongdoing and bad behavior in others. Could that happen in a sage? How about sympathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about sharing your food with others. Could that happen in a sage? How about acting like a human in a body. Could that happen in a sage? How about feeling pain from a bee sting. Could that happen in a sage? Just pointing out how quickly you go from crying for others to deciding that it's their own fault anyway. It's a a list of potential feeling responses in a sage, in no particular order. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 18, 2019 10:00:39 GMT -5
SR is not a thing, a process, or a state. In truth there are no "people who are Self-Realized." SR is the realization that there are no people. So the idea that there is some predictable effect of SR on people's behavior is a fundamental misunderstanding of what SR is. There is no separate, volitional person, which does not mean there isn't an individuation through which THIS is experiencing; A mind/body that is primarily influenced by it's beliefs. Those beliefs change as mind is informed by the realization. The realization that there is no SVP informs mind that there is nobody to blame. The belief that somebody has done something they should not have done is the foundation of anger. There is no volition through which someone could have done something other than what they did. It's not possible for blame and value judgment to occur under these circumstances. There is no mystery here, and it is all quite predictable. It’s not predictable at all. THIS is what is self-realized, not any kind of individuation, and THIS manifests itself (if we believe there is such a thing as manifestation) in all kinds of seemingly angry, blaming ways. “There is nobody to blame” is just a thought. SR is the realization of the nonsensical nature of thoughts. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 18, 2019 10:10:15 GMT -5
How about actual laughter. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual compassion. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual empathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual concern. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual tears for the suffering of others. Could that happen in a sage? How about disapproval and admonishment for wrongdoing and bad behavior in others. Could that happen in a sage? How about sympathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about sharing your food with others. Could that happen in a sage? How about acting like a human in a body. Could that happen in a sage? How about feeling pain from a bee sting. Could that happen in a sage? Nobody is suggesting the SR can't feel. All natural feelings are available, but the anger that comes from blame and value judgment is not natural, it's a pathology resulting from the delusion that something should not have happened. I'm suggesting that anger can arise in a sage without any reflective thought whatsoever. I see irritation and anger on a graduated escalating scale. Using the proposed logic, why would anybody get irritated at anything if it's understood that there's no volition and no separate entity responsible for any action? Everything that happens would simply be accepted with total equanimity. In fact, Ramana, Niz, and many other sages I've read about expressed anger at various times. Where is the point where escalating irritation would need to be re-classified as anger? Can irritation and anger not arise in the absence of blame or value judgments? How does "righteous justifiable anger" differ from other forms of anger? FWIW I've noticed that people who are primarily thinkers (a la personality tests) rarely get angry whereas feelers are far more emotionally volatile and far more likely to express anger. The Buddha was such a cool intellectual that I'd be surprised if he ever got angry, but Jesus was a feeler, and his outburst at the money changers seems perfectly in character (maybe he was Italian  ). I guess that this is just another case where I see THIS as more unpredictable and indeterminate in how it may manifest. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 18, 2019 10:11:14 GMT -5
There is no separate, volitional person, which does not mean there isn't an individuation through which THIS is experiencing; A mind/body that is primarily influenced by it's beliefs. Those beliefs change as mind is informed by the realization. The realization that there is no SVP informs mind that there is nobody to blame. The belief that somebody has done something they should not have done is the foundation of anger. There is no volition through which someone could have done something other than what they did. It's not possible for blame and value judgment to occur under these circumstances. There is no mystery here, and it is all quite predictable. It’s not predictable at all. THIS is what is self-realized, not any kind of individuation, and THIS manifests itself (if we believe there is such a thing as manifestation) in all kinds of seemingly angry, blaming ways. “There is nobody to blame” is just a thought. SR is the realization of the nonsensical nature of thoughts. That's certainly the way I see it. |
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Post by satchitananda on Jul 18, 2019 10:20:53 GMT -5
Nobody is suggesting the SR can't feel. All natural feelings are available, but the anger that comes from blame and value judgment is not natural, it's a pathology resulting from the delusion that something should not have happened. So it would be unnatural for a sage to feel anger if he saw a child being tortured in front of him? Would he say it's just THIS which is experiencing? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 10:25:33 GMT -5
Engaging the story at all means that to some degree, buying in still happens. My point was that the 'depth' to which the story captures attention, to which buying in happens, changes in SR. And it does little good just to tell someone or yourself 'not to buy in too deeply.' That's not of the realm of the person. The absence of buying in so deeply that the story sweeps you up and away hinges upon realization, not choice/effort.
I totally agree. Cool. So why tell me 'not to buy into it' as though it was something I could simply choose to do or not do? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 10:38:26 GMT -5
Nobody's going to argue that anyone's behavior is 100% predictable. But I don't agree with the implication that SR has no effect on behavior or that behavior can't be predicted in a general sense. I believe there are three reasons why we're surprised by the behavior of the Self Realized, and none has to do with the unpredictability of THIS. Firstly, the belief that one has Self realized may be false. Secondly, there is a difference between SR and purification. Often, it seems mind is prematurely abandoned and left to function according to it's pre-existing pathology. Thirdly, most peeps have a long list of judgments regarding behavior, especially spiritual behavior, and most of them are culturally based or fear based or both. The natural functioning of mind doesn't include those value judgments and is far more 'organic'. SR is not a thing, a process, or a state. In truth there are no "people who are Self-Realized." SR is the realization that there are no people. So the idea that there is some predictable effect of SR on people's behavior is a fundamental misunderstanding of what SR is. It's the end of separation. Absent that sense of being a separate thing/someone who moves about in an objectively existent world of separate things, there's a myriad of former ideas/thoughts/beliefs/feelings that simply have nothing anymore from which to stand upon, thus, they cease.
The difficult part is in accurately determining the ideas/thoughts/beliefs/feelings behind a particular behavior. As E described, personal judgements color our perceptions regarding specific appearing behaviors in others. One man sees sex with a student as evidence of something sordid, while another just sees two people having fun. One man sees an outward display of raised voice and harsh words as evidence of blameful anger, where another does not. Judging what's behind behavior is highly dependent upon our own relationship between feelings and manifest behaviors...so that's where the assessment part often breaks down.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 10:40:24 GMT -5
Actual "Anger," that is, the sense that life is unfolding in a way that is fundamentally wrong, in a manner that is fundamentally not as it should be, that someone or something is the cause, is to blame, plain and simply does not happen in a true 'sage,' (one who is SR) as those delusions have been seen through in SR. If those delusions are in play, then plain and simply, the one you thought was a sage, is not. How about actual laughter. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual compassion. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual empathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual concern. Could that happen in a sage? How about actual tears for the suffering of others. Could that happen in a sage? How about disapproval and admonishment for wrongdoing and bad behavior in others. Could that happen in a sage? How about sympathy. Could that happen in a sage? How about sharing your food with others. Could that happen in a sage? How about acting like a human in a body. Could that happen in a sage? How about feeling pain from a bee sting. Could that happen in a sage? Sure. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 10:41:59 GMT -5
SR is not a thing, a process, or a state. In truth there are no "people who are Self-Realized." SR is the realization that there are no people. So the idea that there is some predictable effect of SR on people's behavior is a fundamental misunderstanding of what SR is. There is no separate, volitional person, which does not mean there isn't an individuation through which THIS is experiencing; A mind/body that is primarily influenced by it's beliefs. Those beliefs change as mind is informed by the realization. The realization that there is no SVP informs mind that there is nobody to blame. The belief that somebody has done something they should not have done is the foundation of anger. There is no volition through which someone could have done something other than what they did. It's not possible for blame and value judgment to occur under these circumstances. There is no mystery here, and it is all quite predictable. Wells aid.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 10:46:35 GMT -5
There is no separate, volitional person, which does not mean there isn't an individuation through which THIS is experiencing; A mind/body that is primarily influenced by it's beliefs. Those beliefs change as mind is informed by the realization. The realization that there is no SVP informs mind that there is nobody to blame. The belief that somebody has done something they should not have done is the foundation of anger. There is no volition through which someone could have done something other than what they did. It's not possible for blame and value judgment to occur under these circumstances. There is no mystery here, and it is all quite predictable. It’s not predictable at all. THIS is what is self-realized, not any kind of individuation, and THIS manifests itself (if we believe there is such a thing as manifestation) in all kinds of seemingly angry, blaming ways. “There is nobody to blame” is just a thought. SR is the realization of the nonsensical nature of thoughts. If 'no separation/all one unified movement' has actually been realized, then 'there is nobody to blame,' is not just a thought. It's part and parcel of the realization of no separation.
The term 'predictable' doesn't even really apply. The reason we know that post SR blameful anger, the mental overlay of suffering will arise no longer is because SR means the separate person (that which anchors blameful anger, the mental overlay of suffering) is no longer in play.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 10:47:32 GMT -5
There are very sage-like expressions of anger. I recall an incident at university that sticks with me to this day. It was mid-winter, bitter cold, ice and snow on the ground. I was at a convenience store getting a hot cup of coffee. This burly gentleman was ahead of me complaining about the cold. After I paid, I noticed him get in his car and struggle to start it. It was an El Camino. Once he started it, he spun the tires and peeled out of the parking lot angrily. He cut off this other burly gentleman walking on the sidewalk, almost hit him. The latter, didn't say a word, but deftly hopped up on the hood of the El Camino and non-chalantly walked to the other side, hoped off and proceeded on his walk. It was price-less.
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). I guess that this is just another case where I see THIS as more unpredictable and indeterminate in how it may manifest. 
