|
Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2019 13:13:45 GMT -5
I'm not following this line of the discussion very well. Can you explain a bit more about the conflation of faith and belief? The way I see is that conventional Christianity (and most other religions that are primarily dualistic in nature) tell people only to believe in the stated tenets of the tradition and to have faith that they've true. By contrast, in all of the ND traditions people are told that words CANNOT capture the truth, and they're pointed to do things (mainly to meditate, become silent, inquire, contemplate existential issues, etc). It is assumed that those concrete activities will sooner or later reveal the truth and thereby allow one to verify ND truth claims independently. The Buddha and most other ND teachers have stated, in essence, "Don't take my word for anything; verify everything for yourselves. (Be a lamp unto yourselves)." In the dualistic traditions people are given various commandments regarding how to act, but in the ND traditions it is assumed that people who discover the truth will know how to act without being attached to rigid ideas about those matters. In the Zen tradition, for example, people are told that all human situations are dynamic in nature and dependent upon many variables. Knowing the truth provides flexibility and understanding of the total context and is worth more than any rigid formulas. I became convinced that Zen Masters, Advaita Masters, and Sufi Masters understood what I wanted to know at least 8 years before I started to meditate, but none of the books I read about enlightened people explained how they became enlightened. For some odd reason it never dawned on me to research what they did to become enlightened. None of the books I read at that time discussed meditation, and the Zen books only told stories about specific enigmatic events that triggered realizations. After 5 months of meditation, I finally saw a path that I thought would lead to SR, but I don't remember any Zen teacher ever explaining how meditation might lead to SR. Students were just told to sit, and were told that a daily meditation practice was important. Koans were used as a methodology for penetrating various illusions, and meditation was therefore necessary for triggering the insights that would resolve the koans. Today I would explain the path to a seeker in this way: thoughts obscure the truth of who you really are and what's really going on. To escape the prison created by attachment to thoughts, meditate/contemplate/self-inquire in order to attain mental silence. Sufficient mental silence will lead to realizations that will inform the intellect by shattering the conventional illusions that cause people to suffer and cause them to believe that they are separate from the Infinite. Don;t take my word for this explanation, but if you want to acquire the direct experience necessary to verify or refute this explanation, then you'll need to follow the advice to become mentally silent and find out for yourself what will happen. Faith is not necessary; you only need to be wiling to investigate these matters for yourself (perform an experiment with your own consciousness). In terms of insight, what I've been referring to as faith would best be translated as a genuine, open not-knowing, along with the humility of acknowledging that one is seeking. It seems to me that faith and belief have been conflated (for well over a thousand years) in precisely the way you describe: "have faith that these beliefs are true". But despite the way it's been misused, the real meaning of faith hasn't been erased: it's a leap into the unknown despite evidence to the contrary. In Christian terms, it's the radical notion of making a sincere effort to love your enemy. I mean, who really does that, and why? You can't really love someone else just because you're told to, and the distinction between the two words, belief, and faith, remains despite the ages-old conflation. To the extent that a Christian can find some relative measure of inner-peace by their faith, as they live a world that can be dangerous and hostile, the dogma might seem important to them, the clergy, and anyone from the outside looking in. But anyone who's gained insight knows better. It's not the beliefs that led to the inner-peace, but the prayer. If they believe they have to pray to find that peace, they're no different from folks who meditate to relax or get in tune with their environment. Faith, in this sense, is a trust in God, and not the God of the devotee's imagination, but rather, trust in the degree they can sense of their own true nature. That this is directly in opposition to the dogma is why devotion and insight seem to be roads in directly opposite directions to the people on them. The devotee places his attention on the deity in an act of surrender, while the seeker of insight broadens their sense of awareness as the appearance of limitation falls away. To the extent that a Christian engages in a blind belief because they want to go to heaven, then this might serve the institutions that perpetuate the religion, but it seems to me there is more than one biblical parable that illustrates the "sin" of this. As examples: the workers all receiving the same pay regardless of when they started, and that good works can't get you into heaven. Whether those have survived despite the institutions is an interesting question that I have no answer to. I understand, but because I was raised in a fundamentalist church (Southern Baptist), my memories about faith and belief from that tradition make the two words almost synonymous. The entire message of that church is summed up in one verse--John 3:16--"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." In that tradition it was believed that "once saved always saved," so members of the church had to publicly proclaim their faith/belief in Jesus and "give their life to him," and no matter what they did afterwards they would still go to heaven. It's a rather incredible idea, but that entire tradition revolves around that idea. When one of my brothers died in a car wreck at the age of 30, my mother consoled herself with the fact that he had joined the church and professed his faith in Jesus at the age of about 11. For that reason, alone, she convinced herself that she would see him again in heaven! Maybe its the fact that advancing age cannot be ignored at a certain point, but Carol and I have been astonished at the number of my high school classmates who, over the last twenty years have gone from being in the category one our relatives cynically calls "Christian Lite" to becoming hard-core believers who now claim that the Bible is inerrant and is to be understood in a totally literal sense. It's like everyone is reverting to the rigid belief system they grew up with. We were recently having dinner with some good friends and I was discussing the past 5 major world extinction events. After telling them about the Permian Extinction that wiped out more than 90% of all life on earth 250 million years ago, my oldest friend from childhood, who has an engineering degree from Vanderbilt and is very successful in business, said, "Do you think that those higher sea levels at that time are evidence for the Flood?" I was so shocked at that level of ignorance that it took a moment before i could even respond and say, "No." You can't make this stuff up! Tool-making hominids date back to about 2.4 million years ago and true humans (homo sapiens) date back only about 40,000 years. I feel relatively sure, from reading the NT, the Gospel of Thomas, and dozens of books about the Bible, that JC discovered the Infinite, but in my whole life I've only met two or three living Christians who had attained any depth at all, and only one who seemed to understand that what JC called "the kingdom of God" is here and now. I can't remember ever personally meeting a single Christian who had attained SR. Carol told me that there's a Christian who was featured on BATGAP who had attained SR and that his interview is one of the most popular interviews in that series (which might be worth checking out for those who are curious). At one time Bernadette Roberts seems to have attained a state of no-self, but I've been told by ND friends that later she reverted to some sort of Christian interpretation of her experiences. What's been your experience in this regard?
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2019 13:16:39 GMT -5
I have interacted with many Buddhists who engage in blind belief and I've met Christians who engage in quiet contemplative prayer who are less interested in dogma. And it's not a case of nonduality good, duality bad. The dualistic path of Bhakti yoga or devotion and the selfless service of karma yoga is far more prevalent than the direct non-dual path of self inquiry or jnana. Both are legitimate. Agreed.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2019 13:23:27 GMT -5
In terms of insight, what I've been referring to as faith would best be translated as a genuine, open not-knowing, along with the humility of acknowledging that one is seeking. It seems to me that faith and belief have been conflated (for well over a thousand years) in precisely the way you describe: "have faith that these beliefs are true". But despite the way it's been misused, the real meaning of faith hasn't been erased: it's a leap into the unknown despite evidence to the contrary. In Christian terms, it's the radical notion of making a sincere effort to love your enemy. I mean, who really does that, and why? You can't really love someone else just because you're told to, and the distinction between the two words, belief, and faith, remains despite the ages-old conflation. To the extent that a Christian can find some relative measure of inner-peace by their faith, as they live a world that can be dangerous and hostile, the dogma might seem important to them, the clergy, and anyone from the outside looking in. But anyone who's gained insight knows better. It's not the beliefs that led to the inner-peace, but the prayer. If they believe they have to pray to find that peace, they're no different from folks who meditate to relax or get in tune with their environment. Faith, in this sense, is a trust in God, and not the God of the devotee's imagination, but rather, trust in the degree they can sense of their own true nature. That this is directly in opposition to the dogma is why devotion and insight seem to be roads in directly opposite directions to the people on them. The devotee places his attention on the deity in an act of surrender, while the seeker of insight broadens their sense of awareness as the appearance of limitation falls away. To the extent that a Christian engages in a blind belief because they want to go to heaven, then this might serve the institutions that perpetuate the religion, but it seems to me there is more than one biblical parable that illustrates the "sin" of this. As examples: the workers all receiving the same pay regardless of when they started, and that good works can't get you into heaven. Whether those have survived despite the institutions is an interesting question that I have no answer to. Are American Christians starting to recognise that their heaven is right here? I'm guessing the exact opposite. At least, I see no evidence of that except perhaps among Catholic monastics (some of whom have held joint Buddhist/Catholic retreats). Of course there are now many Americans interested in ND traditions, and whether this will expand remains to be seen. Tolle thinks that there is an evolutionary movement toward the eventual realization of oneness and the importance of NOW, but there are certainly powerful movements in the other direction judging by news reports.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 13:57:12 GMT -5
Are American Christians starting to recognise that their heaven is right here? I'm guessing the exact opposite. At least, I see no evidence of that except perhaps among Catholic monastics (some of whom have held joint Buddhist/Catholic retreats). Of course there are now many Americans interested in ND traditions, and whether this will expand remains to be seen. Tolle thinks that there is an evolutionary movement toward the eventual realization of oneness and the importance of NOW, but there are certainly powerful movements in the other direction judging by news reports. Ok. It's always interesting to see what can be done with a fusion of traditions. Yeah, I can imagine that someone who has been on a world tour for what seems like over a decade would be completely invested in a True Earth. And without going all conspiracy theory.. the people that own news channels don't want people knowing that 'we are all one'.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 30, 2019 14:07:37 GMT -5
In terms of insight, what I've been referring to as faith would best be translated as a genuine, open not-knowing, along with the humility of acknowledging that one is seeking. It seems to me that faith and belief have been conflated (for well over a thousand years) in precisely the way you describe: "have faith that these beliefs are true". But despite the way it's been misused, the real meaning of faith hasn't been erased: it's a leap into the unknown despite evidence to the contrary. In Christian terms, it's the radical notion of making a sincere effort to love your enemy. I mean, who really does that, and why? You can't really love someone else just because you're told to, and the distinction between the two words, belief, and faith, remains despite the ages-old conflation. To the extent that a Christian can find some relative measure of inner-peace by their faith, as they live a world that can be dangerous and hostile, the dogma might seem important to them, the clergy, and anyone from the outside looking in. But anyone who's gained insight knows better. It's not the beliefs that led to the inner-peace, but the prayer. If they believe they have to pray to find that peace, they're no different from folks who meditate to relax or get in tune with their environment. Faith, in this sense, is a trust in God, and not the God of the devotee's imagination, but rather, trust in the degree they can sense of their own true nature. That this is directly in opposition to the dogma is why devotion and insight seem to be roads in directly opposite directions to the people on them. The devotee places his attention on the deity in an act of surrender, while the seeker of insight broadens their sense of awareness as the appearance of limitation falls away. To the extent that a Christian engages in a blind belief because they want to go to heaven, then this might serve the institutions that perpetuate the religion, but it seems to me there is more than one biblical parable that illustrates the "sin" of this. As examples: the workers all receiving the same pay regardless of when they started, and that good works can't get you into heaven. Whether those have survived despite the institutions is an interesting question that I have no answer to. I understand, but because I was raised in a fundamentalist church (Southern Baptist), my memories about faith and belief from that tradition make the two words almost synonymous. The entire message of that church is summed up in one verse--John 3:16--"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." In that tradition it was believed that "once saved always saved," so members of the church had to publicly proclaim their faith/belief in Jesus and "give their life to him," and no matter what they did afterwards they would still go to heaven. It's a rather incredible idea, but that entire tradition revolves around that idea. When one of my brothers died in a car wreck at the age of 30, my mother consoled herself with the fact that he had joined the church and professed his faith in Jesus at the age of about 11. For that reason, alone, she convinced herself that she would see him again in heaven! Maybe its the fact that advancing age cannot be ignored at a certain point, but Carol and I have been astonished at the number of my high school classmates who, over the last twenty years have gone from being in the category one our relatives cynically calls "Christian Lite" to becoming hard-core believers who now claim that the Bible is inerrant and is to be understood in a totally literal sense. It's like everyone is reverting to the rigid belief system they grew up with. We were recently having dinner with some good friends and I was discussing the past 5 major world extinction events. After telling them about the Permian Extinction that wiped out more than 90% of all life on earth 250 million years ago, my oldest friend from childhood, who has an engineering degree from Vanderbilt and is very successful in business, said, "Do you think that those higher sea levels at that time are evidence for the Flood?" I was so shocked at that level of ignorance that it took a moment before i could even respond and say, "No." You can't make this stuff up! Tool-making hominids date back to about 2.4 million years ago and true humans (homo sapiens) date back only about 40,000 years. I feel relatively sure, from reading the NT, the Gospel of Thomas, and dozens of books about the Bible, that JC discovered the Infinite, but in my whole life I've only met two or three living Christians who had attained any depth at all, and only one who seemed to understand that what JC called "the kingdom of God" is here and now. I can't remember ever personally meeting a single Christian who had attained SR. Carol told me that there's a Christian who was featured on BATGAP who had attained SR and that his interview is one of the most popular interviews in that series (which might be worth checking out for those who are curious). At one time Bernadette Roberts seems to have attained a state of no-self, but I've been told by ND friends that later she reverted to some sort of Christian interpretation of her experiences. What's been your experience in this regard? Not very broad or deep at all. About a few years ago I had several chance encounters with total strangers that involved a fleeting existential back-and-forth, but that seemed to go as quickly as it came. With Sue, nonduality is an ongoing dialog. She wanted to get baptized a few year back so I went through the Catholic program with her so that could happen. It gave me a greater appreciation for the similarities between meditation and prayer. Now, the priest who ran the program, I relate some of his homily punchlines from time-to-time. Last week it was "come to see God in everything". A few weeks ago it was "the resurrection starts, here and now, with each of us". He often hits a cosmic oneness-note like this, which is unique among the half-dozen or so priests I've heard, and my evaluation (fwiw) is that he's kensho'd for sure, but likely isn't SR. But after the program ended our participation has been limited to attending mass, so the occasion to open an existential dialog with anyone hasn't really come up. What I can observe though, is the way folks are during the mass, and during communion. It's quite clear from the vibe and the way they appear that some of them are entering a quiescence, and the way it's described in the catechisms and ritual is "opening to the holy spirit". Now, part of every Catholic mass is to recite a creed, either the Apostle's or the Nicene. So, I do this because it's expected as part of the participation. My orientation to it is completely neutral. What I can say is that it took the process of questioning all of my beliefs -- which were rooted in science and secular humanism -- before I could get to a place where I could do that. Some of the ideas in the bible and that the priests teach as part of the homily are sometimes interesting, and, as I've related, can sometimes get rather existential, but that's not why I haven't stopped going, regardless of that Sue still wants to go. I haven't stopped going because the experience in the mass is a collective version of the meditations I used to do and still do on my own, just with .. a few extra bells and whistles. As far as a literal interpretation of the bible, more than one priest has made a point in the homily's that this is, very specifically, not Catholic dogma. I don't know how the educated members of the congregation resolve whatever conflicts they might perceive between the bible or other church teachings and what they know from science, but that would be an interesting topic. It's a fair observation you make about how folks get drawn back to church as they get older, and closer to death. My in-laws attend a protestant church -- Presbyterian I think -- and they're of course educated MD's, and I'm pretty sure from discussions with them that their interpretation of the bible is rather liberal. This isn't to say that the Catholics don't have a similar belief to the one you mentioned about your mother. For them, baptism is a really big deal. I once put the question to a Mormon missionary about whether or not everyone who lived before Christ was born or in a country that had never heard of him was autmagically d@mned to hell. He was ready for that one and explained how angels or St. Pete or whoever takes them aside right outside the pearly gates, tells them the good news right then and there and if they don't say amen they get tossed down the brimstone chute. It's easy for us to shake our heads sadly at some of that benightedness, but, after all, it's just the result of dependent origination, no more, no less! I don't think that most anyone who's posted more than a few times here is any stranger to being a "Stranger in a Strange Land", whether that's at home, work, out on the street, or at church. People peeps are fond of their social niceties, after all, and it's best to go along to get along with them on that score. At least, most of the time.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jun 30, 2019 14:10:32 GMT -5
But I see ZD's point in that the advice to find out for yourself by inquiry and other means such as meditation might seem contrary to someone who hears it to the traditional Christian call for faith-by-belief. Yes I accept ZD's point but he seemed to associate it specifically with nonduality. The true Bhakti is engaged in non dogmatic dualist devotion to God or guru with the goal of surrender just as it is with the path of nondual jnana. It's just that most devotional followers of the Abrahamic religions don't take devotion to it's conclusion. It's easier to follow a set of moral rules and beliefs and when one stumbles or falls short, one can resort to playing the role of weak sinner seeking forgiveness. I know. I was brought up as a Roman Catholic. Ramana said that it was just as valid to surrender and put your life's burden in God's hands as it was to self inquire which doesn't necessitate devotion but doesn't rule it out either. It all depends on temperament and inclination. Yes, well said, but that's probly 'cause the traditions that offer the insight path are all nondual .. at least any that I know of.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2019 14:15:21 GMT -5
I'm guessing the exact opposite. At least, I see no evidence of that except perhaps among Catholic monastics (some of whom have held joint Buddhist/Catholic retreats). Of course there are now many Americans interested in ND traditions, and whether this will expand remains to be seen. Tolle thinks that there is an evolutionary movement toward the eventual realization of oneness and the importance of NOW, but there are certainly powerful movements in the other direction judging by news reports. Ok. It's always interesting to see what can be done with a fusion traditions. Yeah, I can imagine that someone who has been on a world tour for what seems like over a decade would be completely invested in a True Earth. And without going all conspiracy theory.. the people that own news channels don't want people knowing that 'we are all one'. That's true. Along the same vein of conspiracy theory thoughts, Carol and I were highly surprised that the news media did not cover the massive flooding in the central part of the USA recently. It was almost as if major media sources did not want to see climate change directly linked with particular effects that are clearly an aspect of climate change. Fox News, Trump, and many conservatives in America deny that current global warming and climate change result from human activity, and although I'm not someone who subscribes to most conspiracy theories, this is beginning to look like some sort of concerted behind-the-scenes activity. FWIW, the graph of carbon dioxide levels, which has fluctuated over a period of the last 3 million years between about 150 and 250ppm has now gone ballistic. About a month ago the monitoring station on Mauna Loa recorded a reading of 426 ppm, which is undoubtedly the highest level in 3 million years. The level of CO2 began rising with the advent of industrialization and fossil fuel use, but over the last 30 years the CO2 level has climbed at the fastest rate ever, and the curve is now going hyperbolic. A 2 degree Celsius rise in temp by 2050 is now starting to look conservative. For those who are interested in this subject I can recommend "The Uninhabitable Earth," "Falter," and "The Sixth Extinction."
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2019 14:24:13 GMT -5
But I see ZD's point in that the advice to find out for yourself by inquiry and other means such as meditation might seem contrary to someone who hears it to the traditional Christian call for faith-by-belief. Yes I accept ZD's point but he seemed to associate it specifically with nonduality. The true Bhakti is engaged in non dogmatic dualist devotion to God or guru with the goal of surrender just as it is with the path of nondual jnana. It's just that most devotional followers of the Abrahamic religions don't take devotion to it's conclusion. It's easier to follow a set of moral rules and beliefs and when one stumbles or falls short, one can resort to playing the role of weak sinner seeking forgiveness. I know. I was brought up as a Roman Catholic. Ramana said that it was just as valid to surrender and put your life's burden in God's hands as it was to self inquire which doesn't necessitate devotion but doesn't rule it out either. It all depends on temperament and inclination. Total agreement here, and it's worth nothing that Catholics are just about the only Christian denomination that have a well-known history of contemplation and a fairly well accepted tradition of mysticism.
|
|
|
Post by etolle on Jun 30, 2019 14:29:06 GMT -5
In terms of insight, what I've been referring to as faith would best be translated as a genuine, open not-knowing, along with the humility of acknowledging that one is seeking. It seems to me that faith and belief have been conflated (for well over a thousand years) in precisely the way you describe: "have faith that these beliefs are true". But despite the way it's been misused, the real meaning of faith hasn't been erased: it's a leap into the unknown despite evidence to the contrary. In Christian terms, it's the radical notion of making a sincere effort to love your enemy. I mean, who really does that, and why? You can't really love someone else just because you're told to, and the distinction between the two words, belief, and faith, remains despite the ages-old conflation. To the extent that a Christian can find some relative measure of inner-peace by their faith, as they live a world that can be dangerous and hostile, the dogma might seem important to them, the clergy, and anyone from the outside looking in. But anyone who's gained insight knows better. It's not the beliefs that led to the inner-peace, but the prayer. If they believe they have to pray to find that peace, they're no different from folks who meditate to relax or get in tune with their environment. Faith, in this sense, is a trust in God, and not the God of the devotee's imagination, but rather, trust in the degree they can sense of their own true nature. That this is directly in opposition to the dogma is why devotion and insight seem to be roads in directly opposite directions to the people on them. The devotee places his attention on the deity in an act of surrender, while the seeker of insight broadens their sense of awareness as the appearance of limitation falls away. To the extent that a Christian engages in a blind belief because they want to go to heaven, then this might serve the institutions that perpetuate the religion, but it seems to me there is more than one biblical parable that illustrates the "sin" of this. As examples: the workers all receiving the same pay regardless of when they started, and that good works can't get you into heaven. Whether those have survived despite the institutions is an interesting question that I have no answer to. I understand, but because I was raised in a fundamentalist church (Southern Baptist), my memories about faith and belief from that tradition make the two words almost synonymous. The entire message of that church is summed up in one verse--John 3:16--"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." In that tradition it was believed that "once saved always saved," so members of the church had to publicly proclaim their faith/belief in Jesus and "give their life to him," and no matter what they did afterwards they would still go to heaven. It's a rather incredible idea, but that entire tradition revolves around that idea. When one of my brothers died in a car wreck at the age of 30, my mother consoled herself with the fact that he had joined the church and professed his faith in Jesus at the age of about 11. For that reason, alone, she convinced herself that she would see him again in heaven! Maybe its the fact that advancing age cannot be ignored at a certain point, but Carol and I have been astonished at the number of my high school classmates who, over the last twenty years have gone from being in the category one our relatives cynically calls "Christian Lite" to becoming hard-core believers who now claim that the Bible is inerrant and is to be understood in a totally literal sense. It's like everyone is reverting to the rigid belief system they grew up with. We were recently having dinner with some good friends and I was discussing the past 5 major world extinction events. After telling them about the Permian Extinction that wiped out more than 90% of all life on earth 250 million years ago, my oldest friend from childhood, who has an engineering degree from Vanderbilt and is very successful in business, said, "Do you think that those higher sea levels at that time are evidence for the Flood?" I was so shocked at that level of ignorance that it took a moment before i could even respond and say, "No." You can't make this stuff up! Tool-making hominids date back to about 2.4 million years ago and true humans (homo sapiens) date back only about 40,000 years. I feel relatively sure, from reading the NT, the Gospel of Thomas, and dozens of books about the Bible, that JC discovered the Infinite, but in my whole life I've only met two or three living Christians who had attained any depth at all, and only one who seemed to understand that what JC called "the kingdom of God" is here and now. I can't remember ever personally meeting a single Christian who had attained SR. Carol told me that there's a Christian who was featured on BATGAP who had attained SR and that his interview is one of the most popular interviews in that series (which might be worth checking out for those who are curious). At one time Bernadette Roberts seems to have attained a state of no-self, but I've been told by ND friends that later she reverted to some sort of Christian interpretation of her experiences. What's been your experience in this regard? zendancer,why is it that otherwise,seemingly rational humans become so obsessed with their religious beliefs?...I have several friends that I "watch out for" when im at the grocery..lol..they cant have a bowel movement without thanking "the lord"..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 15:34:08 GMT -5
My father who was a deist would tell me that faith without reason is foolishness which I believe defines fundamentalism.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2019 16:58:09 GMT -5
I understand, but because I was raised in a fundamentalist church (Southern Baptist), my memories about faith and belief from that tradition make the two words almost synonymous. The entire message of that church is summed up in one verse--John 3:16--"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." In that tradition it was believed that "once saved always saved," so members of the church had to publicly proclaim their faith/belief in Jesus and "give their life to him," and no matter what they did afterwards they would still go to heaven. It's a rather incredible idea, but that entire tradition revolves around that idea. When one of my brothers died in a car wreck at the age of 30, my mother consoled herself with the fact that he had joined the church and professed his faith in Jesus at the age of about 11. For that reason, alone, she convinced herself that she would see him again in heaven! Maybe its the fact that advancing age cannot be ignored at a certain point, but Carol and I have been astonished at the number of my high school classmates who, over the last twenty years have gone from being in the category one our relatives cynically calls "Christian Lite" to becoming hard-core believers who now claim that the Bible is inerrant and is to be understood in a totally literal sense. It's like everyone is reverting to the rigid belief system they grew up with. We were recently having dinner with some good friends and I was discussing the past 5 major world extinction events. After telling them about the Permian Extinction that wiped out more than 90% of all life on earth 250 million years ago, my oldest friend from childhood, who has an engineering degree from Vanderbilt and is very successful in business, said, "Do you think that those higher sea levels at that time are evidence for the Flood?" I was so shocked at that level of ignorance that it took a moment before i could even respond and say, "No." You can't make this stuff up! Tool-making hominids date back to about 2.4 million years ago and true humans (homo sapiens) date back only about 40,000 years. I feel relatively sure, from reading the NT, the Gospel of Thomas, and dozens of books about the Bible, that JC discovered the Infinite, but in my whole life I've only met two or three living Christians who had attained any depth at all, and only one who seemed to understand that what JC called "the kingdom of God" is here and now. I can't remember ever personally meeting a single Christian who had attained SR. Carol told me that there's a Christian who was featured on BATGAP who had attained SR and that his interview is one of the most popular interviews in that series (which might be worth checking out for those who are curious). At one time Bernadette Roberts seems to have attained a state of no-self, but I've been told by ND friends that later she reverted to some sort of Christian interpretation of her experiences. What's been your experience in this regard? zendancer,why is it that otherwise,seemingly rational humans become so obsessed with their religious beliefs?...I have several friends that I "watch out for" when im at the grocery..lol..they cant have a bowel movement without thanking "the lord".. Haha! I guess it's just the human condition resulting from powerful conditioning and a wide range of fears and crazy ideas. I have a cousin who several years ago became obsessed with saving my soul. He enlisted the help of one of my high school classmates who is also a fanatical believer. They began calling and asking me to join them in attending an evangelistic revival, and they wouldn't take no for an answer. They were so persistent and so obnoxious that I finally had to block their emails and become incredibly forceful on the phone to cause them to desist. Fortunately, I haven't heard from them in several years, but I'll bet that they're still praying for me. Our best friends, who have now become super serious about their religion, often ask us to come to their church to hear their wonderful preacher. Afterwards, Carol will often say, "They must be totally clueless about where we're coming from." When joining them for dinner, we make sure to stay away from topics like religion or politics. A few months ago I suddenly got an email from a girl I hadn't seen in over 50 years. She remembered all kinds of obscure details about my family and about two or three dates I had with her at the age of 20. I became curious about how she had found me, and about her life in general. She had found me on the internet, and she wrote back to give me a detailed history of her life including intimate sexual details of a failed marriage, and other information that was equally bizarre. Eventually her communication turned to religion, and I gradually realized that she was a fanatical true believer. She had learned about this forum from the internet, read some of my postings, and concluded that I needed to be saved. All of the preliminary writing was probably due to loneliness, but it was all a subterfuge for her real purpose. Her final communication to me was a four page warning full of biblical passages that stated that hell could only be averted by subscribing to her beliefs. Needless to say, perhaps, I never responded. It was almost like "Fatal Attraction" without the sex. There have been other similar episodes like this which I attribute to having a lot of info on the internet and two books about ND. I suppose that makes me a natural magnet for true believers who want to save a soul! As for "seemingly rational humans," there might be a fair amount of evidence for re-thinking that terminology! haha
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2019 17:00:02 GMT -5
My father who was a deist would tell me that faith without reason is foolishness which I believe defines fundamentalism. So true. It would be laughable if it weren't such a sad commentary on the effects of enculturation and indoctrination.
|
|
|
Post by etolle on Jun 30, 2019 17:19:29 GMT -5
zendancer,why is it that otherwise,seemingly rational humans become so obsessed with their religious beliefs?...I have several friends that I "watch out for" when im at the grocery..lol..they cant have a bowel movement without thanking "the lord".. Haha! I guess it's just the human condition resulting from powerful conditioning and a wide range of fears and crazy ideas. I have a cousin who several years ago became obsessed with saving my soul. He enlisted the help of one of my high school classmates who is also a fanatical believer. They began calling and asking me to join them in attending an evangelistic revival, and they wouldn't take no for an answer. They were so persistent and so obnoxious that I finally had to block their emails and become incredibly forceful on the phone to cause them to desist. Fortunately, I haven't heard from them in several years, but I'll bet that they're still praying for me. Our best friends, who have now become super serious about their religion, often ask us to come to their church to hear their wonderful preacher. Afterwards, Carol will often say, "They must be totally clueless about where we're coming from." When joining them for dinner, we make sure to stay away from topics like religion or politics. A few months ago I suddenly got an email from a girl I hadn't seen in over 50 years. She remembered all kinds of obscure details about my family and about two or three dates I had with her at the age of 20. I became curious about how she had found me, and about her life in general. She had found me on the internet, and she wrote back to give me a detailed history of her life including intimate sexual details of a failed marriage, and other information that was equally bizarre. Eventually her communication turned to religion, and I gradually realized that she was a fanatical true believer. She had learned about this forum from the internet, read some of my postings, and concluded that I needed to be saved. All of the preliminary writing was probably due to loneliness, but it was all a subterfuge for her real purpose. Her final communication to me was a four page warning full of biblical passages that stated that hell could only be averted by subscribing to her beliefs. Needless to say, perhaps, I never responded. It was almost like "Fatal Attraction" without the sex. There have been other similar episodes like this which I attribute to having a lot of info on the internet and two books about ND. I suppose that makes me a natural magnet for true believers who want to save a soul! As for "seemingly rational humans," there might be a fair amount of evidence for re-thinking that terminology! haha my x brother in law contacts me at about 10 yr intervals and tells me the end of time is comin next month.lol...does he forget that he started tellin me that about that 40 yrs ago?...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 18:37:40 GMT -5
Ok. It's always interesting to see what can be done with a fusion traditions. Yeah, I can imagine that someone who has been on a world tour for what seems like over a decade would be completely invested in a True Earth. And without going all conspiracy theory.. the people that own news channels don't want people knowing that 'we are all one'. That's true. Along the same vein of conspiracy theory thoughts, Carol and I were highly surprised that the news media did not cover the massive flooding in the central part of the USA recently. It was almost as if major media sources did not want to see climate change directly linked with particular effects that are clearly an aspect of climate change. Fox News, Trump, and many conservatives in America deny that current global warming and climate change result from human activity, and although I'm not someone who subscribes to most conspiracy theories, this is beginning to look like some sort of concerted behind-the-scenes activity. FWIW, the graph of carbon dioxide levels, which has fluctuated over a period of the last 3 million years between about 150 and 250ppm has now gone ballistic. About a month ago the monitoring station on Mauna Loa recorded a reading of 426 ppm, which is undoubtedly the highest level in 3 million years. The level of CO2 began rising with the advent of industrialization and fossil fuel use, but over the last 30 years the CO2 level has climbed at the fastest rate ever, and the curve is now going hyperbolic. A 2 degree Celsius rise in temp by 2050 is now starting to look conservative. For those who are interested in this subject I can recommend "The Uninhabitable Earth," "Falter," and "The Sixth Extinction." Yeah.. and it seems that the very rich in your country have been making plans.. www.forbes.com/sites/jimdobson/2017/06/10/the-shocking-doomsday-maps-of-the-world-and-the-billionaire-escape-plans/#72ed00f54047
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2019 21:01:23 GMT -5
That's true. Along the same vein of conspiracy theory thoughts, Carol and I were highly surprised that the news media did not cover the massive flooding in the central part of the USA recently. It was almost as if major media sources did not want to see climate change directly linked with particular effects that are clearly an aspect of climate change. Fox News, Trump, and many conservatives in America deny that current global warming and climate change result from human activity, and although I'm not someone who subscribes to most conspiracy theories, this is beginning to look like some sort of concerted behind-the-scenes activity. FWIW, the graph of carbon dioxide levels, which has fluctuated over a period of the last 3 million years between about 150 and 250ppm has now gone ballistic. About a month ago the monitoring station on Mauna Loa recorded a reading of 426 ppm, which is undoubtedly the highest level in 3 million years. The level of CO2 began rising with the advent of industrialization and fossil fuel use, but over the last 30 years the CO2 level has climbed at the fastest rate ever, and the curve is now going hyperbolic. A 2 degree Celsius rise in temp by 2050 is now starting to look conservative. For those who are interested in this subject I can recommend "The Uninhabitable Earth," "Falter," and "The Sixth Extinction." Yeah.. and it seems that the very rich in your country have been making plans.. Not just in America. Wealthy people from all over the world are doing this. The writing is on the wall, and it's hard to see how global warming will reverse anytime soon. If I lived in a coastal area only a few feet above sea level, I'd be selling my home and moving to higher ground. Big changes are no longer in the distant future, and many of us are already dealing with the effects of significant climate change. 1000 year floods are occurring every few years in many places, and no one can predict what will happen as the permafrost melts. FWIW methane has a much greater effect upon global warming than CO2, and it is also increasing at a very fast rate. I don;t have much FAITH that humans will respond very intelligently to what climate scientists are forecasting.
|
|