The Emergence of Infinity

[lopezcabellero]

If we look at mind as a function, we see the capacity to think, feel, desire, fear, and a plethora of other activity that we can assign under the umbrella of potential, your potential mind functioning. Meditation begins when we stop thinking at one point and ends when we start thinking at another point.  Or, when we consciously observe ourselves at one point up until the point when conscious observation stops.  Observation unravels from a dimension beyond time, because consciousness is essentially timeless.  Nevertheless, quite a bit of interesting stuff seems to happen in time.  Not just the simple meditations mentioned above, but all other types of manifestation, from the blossoming of relationships we cherish, to the growth of cancerous tumors.  The question is, how conscious are we of how the contents of consciousness change?

How we change as individuals is subject to a virtually infinite array of forces.  Meaning, if we take your body at one point in space and time, and we look at your body at another point in space time, we see the potential for change.  If we see negative thinking starting at one point, and a tragic accident happening at another, it may seem like what happened at one point caused what happened at the other. 

Discovery of causal relationship is possible across integrals of time.  Of course points in space time are conceptualizations, and concepts don't cause things.  Consciousness does.  

Our minds create and maintain the illusion of separation, the delusion of self, from a conceptual platform riddled with emotional energy.  To simplify, the most basic relationship you can observe is the conditions around you in relation to your conditioned self.  While it may be true that you are limitless and unbound by self conflict, if you remain unconscious of how your mind generates or maintains conflict, freedom is beyond reach.  People want quality relationships but fear intimacy. They want to meditate when stress arises and then pretend the stressed out person wasn't real. Obviously, the belief in self is real, or the corresponding desire to meditate would never arise.  If the desire to meditate is also a desire to avoid self coagulated emotions, what happens if we avoid meditation and allow ourselves to feel less than happy?

The feeling would express itself in the absence of the fear of it expressing itself, because the fear was made conscious.

The emergence of infinity brings self understanding, because how can we love ourselves or each other if we don't understand the diabolical nature of unconscious thought?  If between two points in time, we are behaving unconsciously, this cannot be observed from within time itself.  Through observation comes potential for lasting change, and while you are not the observed person or anything phenomenal, remaining unconscious of why you meditate or that you meditate or how angry you are or sad you feel can be causally linked to all sorts of horrific things.  Ironically, most people would rather die than become aware of the momentum of their trajectory and what exactly is driving it.

On the flipside, being conscious of your emotional body is the descent of divine into matter, the birth of a new integral between new points in time, where your courage to face your own pain, and weed out your own unconsciousness, is rewarded with desires in harmony with conditions evolving, higher intuition, and less obstructed communication with celestial energy.  Although, that's a story for another day.

[laughter]

J', it's been my fascinated privilege to read along with these expressions of yours over time as they've evolved.

Much of what you say is undeniable, and I'd be so bold as to say that emotional unconsciousness can even manifest despite a genuine , substantive, and non-intellectual realization with regard to the nature of the personal self.

Meditation, though, can be much more than just an interval of no-thought, and it can happen absent any desire for improving the immediate or even the ongoing personal experience. Perhaps this is what you're driving at to begin with: meditation, at it's deepest, involves not only a quiet mind, but the body, and the world. In certain meditations, the distinctions between these three appearances not only becomes quite clear to the witness, as to their nature, but can, viscerally, blur and melt away. To do this, one must be completely attentive during the meditation to all sensation, as well as thought, as well as emotion, without rejecting any of it.

It's true that space and time are creations of mind, but these appearances are far more involved, and far more intertwined with our sense of our bodies and minds than just a simple conceptualization. In meditation that isn't for the purpose of masking pain through a trance, there can be a sensation of either creating, or stepping into, a metaphorical vastness, and in/as this vastness, we can quite definitely see - and feel - how the infinitely large and the infinitely small are two sides of the same coin.

[tzujanli]

Greetings..

I highly recommend not over-thinking meditation.. it's kinda like the guy that took his car apart to find what made it work, so his buddy stops by looks at the garage full of scattered random car parts and asks, 'Whatcha doing'.. the guy says, 'trying to see what makes it run'.. the buddy says, 'it was working before you took it apart, right?'.. the guy says, 'yeah'.. the buddy says, 'good luck', gets in his car and goes to the concert..

Be well..

[lopezcabellero]

Jun 7, 2019 3:37:08 GMT -5 laughter said:

J', it's been my fascinated privilege to read along with these expressions of yours over time as they've evolved.

Much of what you say is undeniable, and I'd be so bold as to say that emotional unconsciousness can even manifest despite a genuine , substantive, and non-intellectual realization with regard to the nature of the personal self.

Thanks, you're a good guy to have around.   I agree that emotional unconsciousness can persevere through a realization or awakening of consciousness from form.  We're talking about pain, and its avoidance, and more pointedly the ability to compensate for and guard against the expression of that same pain.  Considering the broad stigma we find in certain sects of spirituality, namely, that emotional angst is a sign of being unenlightened, coupled to the early onset suppression of pain we experience from childhood onward, it's not surprising we see emotional unconsciousness thriving in modern society, and people who think they're enlightened on a compensatory level avoiding this discussion like the plague.

Meditation, though, can be much more than just an interval of no-thought, and it can happen absent any desire for improving the immediate or even the ongoing personal experience. Perhaps this is what you're driving at to begin with: meditation, at it's deepest, involves not only a quiet mind, but the body, and the world. In certain meditations, the distinctions between these three appearances not only becomes quite clear to the witness, as to their nature, but can, viscerally, blur and melt away. To do this, one must be completely attentive during the meditation to all sensation, as well as thought, as well as emotion, without rejecting any of it.

I agree all sorts of interesting stuff is going on with meditation, depending where one is at on their journey and whose instructions one is following, not to mention what type of energy is surrounding you.  As far as god realization is concerned, we would hope conscious observation is available throughout the meditation, as your presence transcends the form encapsulated by it.  That meditation is initiated by the mind, through either activity or halting activity, is where the rubber meets the road.  Someone who compensates throughout the day due to being triggered by conditions unconsciously will find relief in moving away from the triggers and into seclusion.  If the meditation is designed to avoid triggers, then we aren't addressing or making conscious the emotions being triggered, but rather intentionally staying unconscious while pretending something else is going on.  If someone is depressed or suicidal, maybe a week away from triggers and into anonymity will save a life, but if we're talking about healing, we're talking about going into the emotions more deeply, allowing oneself to be completely overwhelmed, to feel completely helpless, if that's what's called for.

Your last line hints at this type of meditation, or healing, but we must include the potential for malevolent forces.  A woman in Hawaii recently went on a jog in the mountains.  You may have heard about it.  She left her phone in her car, got a ways away, decided to stop and meditate, and then ventured off in the wrong direction.  17 days later she was discovered by a rescue team completely dehydrated and more than likely close to physical death.  Maybe the thought to walk in that direction, leave your phone here, were actually manifestations of a deeper attraction than meets the eye.  Coupled to her opening of her unconscious during meditation, she was vulnerable, and likely infiltrated by a semiautonomous energy field, and left half for dead.  Rejecting the thought to meditate in that instance could have saved her life.  But really we are talking about emotional consciousness, being conscious of what one has going on internally so that one can be aware of what is being attracted during the meditation experience.  If meditation is a submission to mind control, then maybe rejecting thoughts or energies which mask our emotions rather than heal them is called for.  Even rejection can be done consciously, but of course the line is blurred and misinterpretation virtually inevitable.

It's true that space and time are creations of mind, but these appearances are far more involved, and far more intertwined with our sense of our bodies and minds than just a simple conceptualization. In meditation that isn't for the purpose of masking pain through a trance, there can be a sensation of either creating, or stepping into, a metaphorical vastness, and in/as this vastness, we can quite definitely see - and feel - how the infinitely large and the infinitely small are two sides of the same coin.

I agree each condition as we conceptualize it is ripe for observation and analysis.  Granted, the condition is still a creation of mind, and how we interpret or analyze it limited to our mind's potential.  The question is what is driving the stepping into a vastness?  Isn't it already present?  If it's a desire to experience oneness or vastness then we're talking about a discontent with feeling separate or limited.  If it's the fruit of a genuine exploration of truth and a step outside one's limited mind structures, great, but if it's an experience available for recall then it's a respite from delusion in and of itself the seed for a new and even more complex delusion, the mind made infinite self.  

Regardless, I think some forms of meditation can be integral to healing consciousness from the id complex.  When meditation turns into self abuse through curbing authenticity or blocking desires or fears, regardless of how at one one sees oneself to be during the meditative experience, the driving force isn't conscious.  And if it's not conscious, what's it worth?  

[laughter]

Jun 7, 2019 11:32:03 GMT -5 lopezcabellero said:

Jun 7, 2019 3:37:08 GMT -5 laughter said:

J', it's been my fascinated privilege to read along with these expressions of yours over time as they've evolved.

Much of what you say is undeniable, and I'd be so bold as to say that emotional unconsciousness can even manifest despite a genuine , substantive, and non-intellectual realization with regard to the nature of the personal self.

Thanks, you're a good guy to have around.   I agree that emotional unconsciousness can persevere through a realization or awakening of consciousness from form.  We're talking about pain, and its avoidance, and more pointedly the ability to compensate for and guard against the expression of that same pain.  Considering the broad stigma we find in certain sects of spirituality, namely, that emotional angst is a sign of being unenlightened, coupled to the early onset suppression of pain we experience from childhood onward, it's not surprising we see emotional unconsciousness thriving in modern society, and people who think they're enlightened on a compensatory level avoiding this discussion like the plague.

Meditation, though, can be much more than just an interval of no-thought, and it can happen absent any desire for improving the immediate or even the ongoing personal experience. Perhaps this is what you're driving at to begin with: meditation, at it's deepest, involves not only a quiet mind, but the body, and the world. In certain meditations, the distinctions between these three appearances not only becomes quite clear to the witness, as to their nature, but can, viscerally, blur and melt away. To do this, one must be completely attentive during the meditation to all sensation, as well as thought, as well as emotion, without rejecting any of it.

I agree all sorts of interesting stuff is going on with meditation, depending where one is at on their journey and whose instructions one is following, not to mention what type of energy is surrounding you.  As far as god realization is concerned, we would hope conscious observation is available throughout the meditation, as your presence transcends the form encapsulated by it.  That meditation is initiated by the mind, through either activity or halting activity, is where the rubber meets the road.  Someone who compensates throughout the day due to being triggered by conditions unconsciously will find relief in moving away from the triggers and into seclusion.  If the meditation is designed to avoid triggers, then we aren't addressing or making conscious the emotions being triggered, but rather intentionally staying unconscious while pretending something else is going on.  If someone is depressed or suicidal, maybe a week away from triggers and into anonymity will save a life, but if we're talking about healing, we're talking about going into the emotions more deeply, allowing oneself to be completely overwhelmed, to feel completely helpless, if that's what's called for.

Your last line hints at this type of meditation, or healing, but we must include the potential for malevolent forces.  A woman in Hawaii recently went on a jog in the mountains.  You may have heard about it.  She left her phone in her car, got a ways away, decided to stop and meditate, and then ventured off in the wrong direction.  17 days later she was discovered by a rescue team completely dehydrated and more than likely close to physical death.  Maybe the thought to walk in that direction, leave your phone here, were actually manifestations of a deeper attraction than meets the eye.  Coupled to her opening of her unconscious during meditation, she was vulnerable, and likely infiltrated by a semiautonomous energy field, and left half for dead.  Rejecting the thought to meditate in that instance could have saved her life.  But really we are talking about emotional consciousness, being conscious of what one has going on internally so that one can be aware of what is being attracted during the meditation experience.  If meditation is a submission to mind control, then maybe rejecting thoughts or energies which mask our emotions rather than heal them is called for.  Even rejection can be done consciously, but of course the line is blurred and misinterpretation virtually inevitable.

It's true that space and time are creations of mind, but these appearances are far more involved, and far more intertwined with our sense of our bodies and minds than just a simple conceptualization. In meditation that isn't for the purpose of masking pain through a trance, there can be a sensation of either creating, or stepping into, a metaphorical vastness, and in/as this vastness, we can quite definitely see - and feel - how the infinitely large and the infinitely small are two sides of the same coin.

I agree each condition as we conceptualize it is ripe for observation and analysis.  Granted, the condition is still a creation of mind, and how we interpret or analyze it limited to our mind's potential.  The question is what is driving the stepping into a vastness?  Isn't it already present?  If it's a desire to experience oneness or vastness then we're talking about a discontent with feeling separate or limited.  If it's the fruit of a genuine exploration of truth and a step outside one's limited mind structures, great, but if it's an experience available for recall then it's a respite from delusion in and of itself the seed for a new and even more complex delusion, the mind made infinite self.  

Regardless, I think some forms of meditation can be integral to healing consciousness from the id complex.  When meditation turns into self abuse through curbing authenticity or blocking desires or fears, regardless of how at one one sees oneself to be during the meditative experience, the driving force isn't conscious.  And if it's not conscious, what's it worth?  

The angst for folks in the situation you describe can serve as the same sort of opportunity for them that simple existential dread serves for any given Joe C. Trance. It's a subliminal signal that the people peep interprets as "there's something wrong" .. which is, of course, in a sense, rather ironic.

So I'd say it's a net cultural positive that a condition for enlightened status is the absence of that angst. If people deny it when it's happening but aren't consciously seeking then they're in a similar state as someone completely unfamiliar with nonduality. But different, in that a sudden flash of self-honesty has the chance to leverage what they've already come to understand.

And beyond that, the "subconscious" doesn't ever really go away. The conditioning of any given body/mind was about four billion years in the making, after all. But at the very least, realization means a gravity toward clarity, and that can't help but influence the ongoing experience. Negative reactivity though, now that seems to be a puzzle for some folks, in that they expect that it shouldn't happen for an enlightened person.

I did read the details of that lady's story, and related to it. Meditation can lead to some states that are disorienting when coming out of it, for sure.

[lolly]

It takes a lot of attention to be self-aware, which is why meditation practice is a good idea. So is eating the right kinda food, but bacon, right?.

[lopezcabellero]

Jun 8, 2019 2:14:07 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jun 7, 2019 11:32:03 GMT -5 lopezcabellero said:

Thanks, you're a good guy to have around.   I agree that emotional unconsciousness can persevere through a realization or awakening of consciousness from form.  We're talking about pain, and its avoidance, and more pointedly the ability to compensate for and guard against the expression of that same pain.  Considering the broad stigma we find in certain sects of spirituality, namely, that emotional angst is a sign of being unenlightened, coupled to the early onset suppression of pain we experience from childhood onward, it's not surprising we see emotional unconsciousness thriving in modern society, and people who think they're enlightened on a compensatory level avoiding this discussion like the plague.

I agree all sorts of interesting stuff is going on with meditation, depending where one is at on their journey and whose instructions one is following, not to mention what type of energy is surrounding you.  As far as god realization is concerned, we would hope conscious observation is available throughout the meditation, as your presence transcends the form encapsulated by it.  That meditation is initiated by the mind, through either activity or halting activity, is where the rubber meets the road.  Someone who compensates throughout the day due to being triggered by conditions unconsciously will find relief in moving away from the triggers and into seclusion.  If the meditation is designed to avoid triggers, then we aren't addressing or making conscious the emotions being triggered, but rather intentionally staying unconscious while pretending something else is going on.  If someone is depressed or suicidal, maybe a week away from triggers and into anonymity will save a life, but if we're talking about healing, we're talking about going into the emotions more deeply, allowing oneself to be completely overwhelmed, to feel completely helpless, if that's what's called for.

Your last line hints at this type of meditation, or healing, but we must include the potential for malevolent forces.  A woman in Hawaii recently went on a jog in the mountains.  You may have heard about it.  She left her phone in her car, got a ways away, decided to stop and meditate, and then ventured off in the wrong direction.  17 days later she was discovered by a rescue team completely dehydrated and more than likely close to physical death.  Maybe the thought to walk in that direction, leave your phone here, were actually manifestations of a deeper attraction than meets the eye.  Coupled to her opening of her unconscious during meditation, she was vulnerable, and likely infiltrated by a semiautonomous energy field, and left half for dead.  Rejecting the thought to meditate in that instance could have saved her life.  But really we are talking about emotional consciousness, being conscious of what one has going on internally so that one can be aware of what is being attracted during the meditation experience.  If meditation is a submission to mind control, then maybe rejecting thoughts or energies which mask our emotions rather than heal them is called for.  Even rejection can be done consciously, but of course the line is blurred and misinterpretation virtually inevitable.


I agree each condition as we conceptualize it is ripe for observation and analysis.  Granted, the condition is still a creation of mind, and how we interpret or analyze it limited to our mind's potential.  The question is what is driving the stepping into a vastness?  Isn't it already present?  If it's a desire to experience oneness or vastness then we're talking about a discontent with feeling separate or limited.  If it's the fruit of a genuine exploration of truth and a step outside one's limited mind structures, great, but if it's an experience available for recall then it's a respite from delusion in and of itself the seed for a new and even more complex delusion, the mind made infinite self.  

Regardless, I think some forms of meditation can be integral to healing consciousness from the id complex.  When meditation turns into self abuse through curbing authenticity or blocking desires or fears, regardless of how at one one sees oneself to be during the meditative experience, the driving force isn't conscious.  And if it's not conscious, what's it worth?  

The angst for folks in the situation you describe can serve as the same sort of opportunity for them that simple existential dread serves for any given Joe C. Trance. It's a subliminal signal that the people peep interprets as "there's something wrong" .. which is, of course, in a sense, rather ironic.

So I'd say it's a net cultural positive that a condition for enlightened status is the absence of that angst. If people deny it when it's happening but aren't consciously seeking then they're in a similar state as someone completely unfamiliar with nonduality. But different, in that a sudden flash of self-honesty has the chance to leverage what they've already come to understand.

And beyond that, the "subconscious" doesn't ever really go away. The conditioning of any given body/mind was about four billion years in the making, after all. But at the very least, realization means a gravity toward clarity, and that can't help but influence the ongoing experience. Negative reactivity though, now that seems to be a puzzle for some folks, in that they expect that it shouldn't happen for an enlightened person.

I did read the details of that lady's story, and related to it. Meditation can lead to some states that are disorienting when coming out of it, for sure.

Subconscious influence isn't the fulcrum for identification, while I would say the personal unconscious is.  I find subconscious influence fascinating, and really a subject which traverses the field into the collective unconscious, which Jung once labelled as a source of wisdom and guidance, albeit also a gateway for the dreaded spirit complex.   Imagine, being subconsciously influenced by an angel or celestial spirit!  The spirit complex, on the other hand, is a direct result of attracting negative subconscious (even if compensatory) influence as a result of unhealed emotions.  Upon reflection very little of my own personal unconscious was cleared during meditation, which is why it doesn't surprise me when I hear people who meditate a lot having no reference for a personal unconscious.  I guess over the years I learned how to process emotions which stemmed from my past as opposed to what's tangibly present.

Anyway, on negative reactivity, certainly may stem from an unconscious complex. It might be more beneficial to look at what happens when pain is blocked, providing trigger for anger, providing potential to layer onto triggered energy through further suppression.  Anger is negative reactivity, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a backward step in transcending mind.  Although it certainly can be, especially to the extent others can be harmed.  It's particularly interesting how blockages and unhealed emotions act as an attractive force.  But, that's a story for not now.