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Post by zendancer on May 30, 2019 14:11:25 GMT -5
The goal of all seekers, whether recognized or not, is to attain peace of mind by attaining psychological unity with "what is." Seekers are generally driven by either curiosity about the nature of reality ("What's going on?") or a desire to escape suffering ("What must I do to feel okay?"). Regardless of what initially drives the seeking, sooner or later it's usually discovered that there'll never be any lasting peace or equanimity until the sense of being separate from reality/life comes to an end.
The goal is not to practice meditation forever; the goal is to attain freedom by realizing that what one is is already free. Life can then flow effortlessly without the sense of a separate "me" that lacks anything. Mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the activities that seem to be most highly correlated with penetrating the illusions created by cognition. Sitting and watching the breath, or walking in the woods while looking and listening, or becoming totally attentive to whatever activities are occurring in the present moment all have the same effect; they shift people's attention away from thoughts and psychologically unify them with "what is."
Seemingly temporary states of unity can occur at any time (deep states of samadhi, kensho, getting "into the zone," mushin, etc), but the ultimate goal of seeking is to realize that what appear to be temporary states of unity happening to a "me" are, in actuality, all part of one seamless flow of Infinite Being. When the "me" is seen through, it then becomes obvious that Infinite Being is the only thingless thing that ever existed.
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Post by laughter on May 30, 2019 14:49:16 GMT -5
Perhaps we can say that your observation about the goal is true for all human beings, regardless of whether they're consciously seeking or not. And I'd say that compassion and love/passion also have the same potential as either curiosity or suffering, and manifest as service and devotion, respectively. Furthermore, most paths seem to involve all the directions on the compass, to one degree and mix, or another. I'd even go so far as to assert that mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the ONLY way that the seeking can happen consciously. And even if they're not the goal, meditation, insight, service and prayer can happen even after realization of the infinite, and, of course, you didn't preclude that.
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Post by zendancer on May 30, 2019 15:36:20 GMT -5
Perhaps we can say that your observation about the goal is true for all human beings, regardless of whether they're consciously seeking or not. And I'd say that compassion and love/passion also have the same potential as either curiosity or suffering, and manifest as service and devotion, respectively. Furthermore, most paths seem to involve all the directions on the compass, to one degree and mix, or another. I'd even go so far as to assert that mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the ONLY way that the seeking can happen consciously. And even if they're not the goal, meditation, insight, service and prayer can happen even after realization of the infinite, and, of course, you didn't preclude that. Agreed.
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Post by justlikeyou on May 30, 2019 22:30:58 GMT -5
Not sure goal is the right word. But if the end result is surrender, then it doesn't really matter what you call it. :-)
LUKE 17:33: "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 2:38:59 GMT -5
Perhaps we can say that your observation about the goal is true for all human beings, regardless of whether they're consciously seeking or not. And I'd say that compassion and love/passion also have the same potential as either curiosity or suffering, and manifest as service and devotion, respectively. Furthermore, most paths seem to involve all the directions on the compass, to one degree and mix, or another. I'd even go so far as to assert that mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the ONLY way that the seeking can happen consciously. And even if they're not the goal, meditation, insight, service and prayer can happen even after realization of the infinite, and, of course, you didn't preclude that. That sounds like the most honest path there is.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 7:45:43 GMT -5
The goal of all seekers, whether recognized or not, is to attain peace of mind by attaining psychological unity with "what is." Seekers are generally driven by either curiosity about the nature of reality ("What's going on?") or a desire to escape suffering ("What must I do to feel okay?"). Regardless of what initially drives the seeking, sooner or later it's usually discovered that there'll never be any lasting peace or equanimity until the sense of being separate from reality/life comes to an end. The goal is not to practice meditation forever; the goal is to attain freedom by realizing that what one is is already free. Life can then flow effortlessly without the sense of a separate "me" that lacks anything. Mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the activities that seem to be most highly correlated with penetrating the illusions created by cognition. Sitting and watching the breath, or walking in the woods while looking and listening, or becoming totally attentive to whatever activities are occurring in the present moment all have the same effect; they shift people's attention away from thoughts and psychologically unify them with "what is." Seemingly temporary states of unity can occur at any time (deep states of samadhi, kensho, getting "into the zone," mushin, etc), but the ultimate goal of seeking is to realize that what appear to be temporary states of unity happening to a "me" are, in actuality, all part of one seamless flow of Infinite Being. When the "me" is seen through, it then becomes obvious that Infinite Being is the only thingless thing that ever existed. I would agree that initially the goal is to seek relief, but that notion unraveled for me rather quickly and it does for others as well which is why people quit the practice. We live in a culture that expects instantaneous gratification and to a very large extent practice, sincere practice, dispels that notion. I never heard a Zen priest say you will have peace if you meditate. I did however hear them say often to sit without expectation. In fact this was drilled into us. It was a constant refrain, "no expectations, no delusions." The problem as I perceive it is not the distress. The problem is the minds incessant grasping causes the distress. If this is not "seen through" or recognized, the cart is still ahead of the horse. Not to say that a Zen priest or an Advaita teacher might not tell a student to keep hitting his head against the brick wall, but that is for the very purpose I describe.
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Post by laughter on May 31, 2019 12:29:12 GMT -5
Perhaps we can say that your observation about the goal is true for all human beings, regardless of whether they're consciously seeking or not. And I'd say that compassion and love/passion also have the same potential as either curiosity or suffering, and manifest as service and devotion, respectively. Furthermore, most paths seem to involve all the directions on the compass, to one degree and mix, or another. I'd even go so far as to assert that mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the ONLY way that the seeking can happen consciously. And even if they're not the goal, meditation, insight, service and prayer can happen even after realization of the infinite, and, of course, you didn't preclude that. That sounds like the most honest path there is. I see it as a potential element of any path.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 13:04:50 GMT -5
I would agree that initially the goal is to seek relief, but that notion unraveled for me rather quickly and it does for others as well which is why people quit the practice. We live in a culture that expects instantaneous gratification and to a very large extent practice, sincere practice, dispels that notion. I never heard a Zen priest say you will have peace if you meditate. I did however hear them say often to sit without expectation. In fact this was drilled into us. It was a constant refrain, "no expectations, no delusions." The problem as I perceive it is not the distress. The problem is the minds incessant grasping causes the distress. If this is not "seen through" or recognized, the cart is still ahead of the horse. Not to say that a Zen priest or an Advaita teacher might not tell a student to keep hitting his head against the brick wall, but that is for the very purpose I describe. What unraveled? The idea of instant gratification, or the entire goal of relief, peace, or something G ood? I guess it's another paradox. If you're too fixated on a "goal" or an expectation, maybe that's an issue. But also I can see how it could be "off" to try and force it the other way.
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Post by maxdprophet on May 31, 2019 13:42:53 GMT -5
The goal of all seekers, whether recognized or not, is to attain peace of mind by attaining psychological unity with "what is." Seekers are generally driven by either curiosity about the nature of reality ("What's going on?") or a desire to escape suffering ("What must I do to feel okay?"). Regardless of what initially drives the seeking, sooner or later it's usually discovered that there'll never be any lasting peace or equanimity until the sense of being separate from reality/life comes to an end. The goal is not to practice meditation forever; the goal is to attain freedom by realizing that what one is is already free. Life can then flow effortlessly without the sense of a separate "me" that lacks anything. Mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the activities that seem to be most highly correlated with penetrating the illusions created by cognition. Sitting and watching the breath, or walking in the woods while looking and listening, or becoming totally attentive to whatever activities are occurring in the present moment all have the same effect; they shift people's attention away from thoughts and psychologically unify them with "what is." Seemingly temporary states of unity can occur at any time (deep states of samadhi, kensho, getting "into the zone," mushin, etc), but the ultimate goal of seeking is to realize that what appear to be temporary states of unity happening to a "me" are, in actuality, all part of one seamless flow of Infinite Being. When the "me" is seen through, it then becomes obvious that Infinite Being is the only thingless thing that ever existed. The goal of releasing ones fingers from the Chinese fingertrap comes to mind. The goal-seeking is the pulling and fruitless tugging, but, ultimately, the gentle forgiveness, effortless lack of struggle, goallessness shows the way. Even when disinterested, not apparently seeking this goal, suffering and fundamental alienation makes the goal seeking inescapable. And it's facing the alienation -- going into it, seeing it for what it is, experiencing it rather than trying to neutralize it with whatever the next distraction/amelioration is -- that it is seen as inseparable from everything else. The self-storytelling, identification, reflection all intrude on just raw sensual experience. But settling into the raw experience and seeing the identification/mental activity within that context, and as just another form of raw experience helps relax the whole thing, including relaxing goal-seeking; making the goal closer. The goal is the gateless gate. Looks like a gate until it isn't.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 13:44:41 GMT -5
I would agree that initially the goal is to seek relief, but that notion unraveled for me rather quickly and it does for others as well which is why people quit the practice. We live in a culture that expects instantaneous gratification and to a very large extent practice, sincere practice, dispels that notion. I never heard a Zen priest say you will have peace if you meditate. I did however hear them say often to sit without expectation. In fact this was drilled into us. It was a constant refrain, "no expectations, no delusions." The problem as I perceive it is not the distress. The problem is the minds incessant grasping causes the distress. If this is not "seen through" or recognized, the cart is still ahead of the horse. Not to say that a Zen priest or an Advaita teacher might not tell a student to keep hitting his head against the brick wall, but that is for the very purpose I describe. What unraveled? The idea of instant gratification, or the entire goal of relief, peace, or something G ood? I guess it's another paradox. If you're too fixated on a "goal" or an expectation, maybe that's an issue. But also I can see how it could be "off" to try and force it the other way. The idea of instant gratification, that if one day I felt distressed meditation would immediately remove the distress. I got relief over time as I began to notice I was separate from thoughts, but that was never a stated goal. The focus in Zen is a process which includes letting go of outcomes. Paul Hedderman calls the antithesis of Zen as "living in what's not happening."
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Post by bluey on May 31, 2019 17:10:16 GMT -5
Perhaps we can say that your observation about the goal is true for all human beings, regardless of whether they're consciously seeking or not. And I'd say that compassion and love/passion also have the same potential as either curiosity or suffering, and manifest as service and devotion, respectively. Furthermore, most paths seem to involve all the directions on the compass, to one degree and mix, or another. I'd even go so far as to assert that mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the ONLY way that the seeking can happen consciously. And even if they're not the goal, meditation, insight, service and prayer can happen even after realization of the infinite, and, of course, you didn't preclude that. Absolutely, great post Rumi once wrote I was dead, then alive Weeping then laughing The power of Love came to me I became fierce like a lion Then tender like the evening star
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Post by laughter on May 31, 2019 20:52:09 GMT -5
Perhaps we can say that your observation about the goal is true for all human beings, regardless of whether they're consciously seeking or not. And I'd say that compassion and love/passion also have the same potential as either curiosity or suffering, and manifest as service and devotion, respectively. Furthermore, most paths seem to involve all the directions on the compass, to one degree and mix, or another. I'd even go so far as to assert that mental silence and interacting with reality non-conceptually are the ONLY way that the seeking can happen consciously. And even if they're not the goal, meditation, insight, service and prayer can happen even after realization of the infinite, and, of course, you didn't preclude that. Absolutely, great post Rumi once wrote I was dead, then alive Weeping then laughing The power of Love came to me I became fierce like a lion Then tender like the evening star Rumi rocks! I've loved every one of his poems I've ever seen online. Thanks.
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