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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 11:54:03 GMT -5
The notion that the mind will be controlled through meditation is a fallacy. Trying to control the mind is like trying to control the reflex to sneeze or cough. Good luck. That being said, the natural state is still mind. But what decides and exerts effort in attempting to control the mind?
What stills the mind isn't attempts to quiet or control. What stills the mind is exposure, noticing how it works, seeing through its attempts to conceal and deceive.
It's much like watching my little pup when I use a lure to play with her. She pretends to be distracted for a moment, chews on a piece of wood, so I lower my guard and relax before she pounces. She's a trickster.
What quiets the mind is when we begin to notice its tricks. The thoughts are the lures it uses to entice you into believing it is real.
What quiets the mind is observation and with that realizing that it's a puppeteer.
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Post by zendancer on May 28, 2019 12:25:42 GMT -5
All of that is relatively true, but repeatedly shifting attention away from thoughts can definitely lead to mental silence, and far more quickly.
The natural state includes mind, but is not mind. In the natural state it doesn't matter whether there are thoughts or no thoughts.
A good koan to contemplate is, "What shifts attention away from thoughts or towards thoughts?"
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 14:10:57 GMT -5
All of that is relatively true, but repeatedly shifting attention away from thoughts can definitely lead to mental silence, and far more quickly. The natural state includes mind, but is not mind. In the natural state it doesn't matter whether there are thoughts or no thoughts. A good koan to contemplate is, "What shifts attention away from thoughts or towards thoughts?" ZD was meditating. He started thinking about the hot new female pilot he hired two weeks back to fly his private LearJet, fantasizing about spending an evening in the hot tub with her. Then he remembered the last time he flew to Hollywood to meet with his agent, they landed him in Burbank airport, too long of a drive. He wanted to change the itinerary, to fly to Long Beach or LAX. He needed to discuss a change in the flight plan with his pilot. He decided he would call her and set up a meeting. Then he realized he hadn't yet scheduled a meeting with his agent to discuss the script for Pouring Concrete. He decided he needed to do that right after the meditation session. Do you think he'd remember his original intent if he recalled focusing on his breath at this point? Perhaps, but you catch my drift. Had fun with the ZD story. Your point is well taken. Koans are for folks who enjoy looking for a corner in a circular room. |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2019 14:39:19 GMT -5
The notion that the mind will be controlled through meditation is a fallacy. Trying to control the mind is like trying to control the reflex to sneeze or cough. Good luck. That being said, the natural state is still mind. But what decides and exerts effort in attempting to control the mind? What stills the mind isn't attempts to quiet or control. What stills the mind is exposure, noticing how it works, seeing through its attempts to conceal and deceive. It's much like watching my little pup when I use a lure to play with her. She pretends to be distracted for a moment, chews on a piece of wood, so I lower my guard and relax before she pounces. She's a trickster. What quiets the mind is when we begin to notice its tricks. The thoughts are the lures it uses to entice you into believing it is real. What quiets the mind is observation and with that realizing that it's a puppeteer. Yes, in sitting meditation, sustained, open, alert attention to the contents of mind as they arise can eventually lead to clarity. The trick isn't to refuse or deny or suppress the thoughts -- although, perhaps, for some folks that can lead to some sort of temporary state of "no-thought". But rather, as each thought arises, if one should just allow it to be, without energizing it with interest, it will eventually dissipate, as long as alert - but open and yielding - attention is maintained. If we visualize the mind as the sky, and the thoughts as clouds, our attention can be like the sun, clearing the mist. If we visualize the process of thought as a fire, then attention is the fuel, thoughts and emotions are licks and wisps of red/yellow flame, and our interest in those flames are the drafts of oxygen that bellow the fire. Hey, I didn't invent these metaphors, but, cliches are cliches, for a reason.  E' pointed out once that this describes a process of putting attention on attention. But what can happen, if the orientation toward the process of the mind - as well as sensation in the body - is genuinely one of allowance, is that silence and stillness will begin to manifest naturally. The quieter the mind gets, the less intense the attention required to keep from slipping into the stream of one interest leading into another on a continuous train. What can happen from there, is a sort of self-sustaining virtuous circle of awareness opening up into an absence of either subject or object. Silence does have the potential to hold a fascination of it's own, but only if this is attuned. This is an awareness of being aware, free from ephemeral distraction. It is an effortless state to maintain, as no maintenance is necessary, and, here lies the potential for a direct, non-conceptual answer to the question "what is it that would allow the contents of mind, to be, as they are?". |
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 15:53:07 GMT -5
The notion that the mind will be controlled through meditation is a fallacy. Trying to control the mind is like trying to control the reflex to sneeze or cough. Good luck. That being said, the natural state is still mind. But what decides and exerts effort in attempting to control the mind? What stills the mind isn't attempts to quiet or control. What stills the mind is exposure, noticing how it works, seeing through its attempts to conceal and deceive. It's much like watching my little pup when I use a lure to play with her. She pretends to be distracted for a moment, chews on a piece of wood, so I lower my guard and relax before she pounces. She's a trickster. What quiets the mind is when we begin to notice its tricks. The thoughts are the lures it uses to entice you into believing it is real. What quiets the mind is observation and with that realizing that it's a puppeteer. Yes, in sitting meditation, sustained, open, alert attention to the contents of mind as they arise can eventually lead to clarity. The trick isn't to refuse or deny or suppress the thoughts -- although, perhaps, for some folks that can lead to some sort of temporary state of "no-thought". But rather, as each thought arises, if one should just allow it to be, without energizing it with interest, it will eventually dissipate, as long as alert - but open and yielding - attention is maintained. If we visualize the mind as the sky, and the thoughts as clouds, our attention can be like the sun, clearing the mist. If we visualize the process of thought as a fire, then attention is the fuel, thoughts and emotions are licks and wisps of red/yellow flame, and our interest in those flames are the drafts of oxygen that bellow the fire. Hey, I didn't invent these metaphors, but, cliches are cliches, for a reason. E' pointed out once that this describes a process of putting attention on attention. But what can happen, if the orientation toward the process of the mind - as well as sensation in the body - is genuinely one of allowance, is that silence and stillness will begin to manifest naturally. The quieter the mind gets, the less intense the attention required to keep from slipping into the stream of one interest leading into another on a continuous train. What can happen from there, is a sort of self-sustaining virtuous circle of awareness opening up into an absence of either subject or object. Silence does have the potential to hold a fascination of it's own, but only if this is attuned. This is an awareness of being aware, free from ephemeral distraction. It is an effortless state to maintain, as no maintenance is necessary, and, here lies the potential for a direct, non-conceptual answer to the question "what is it that would allow the contents of mind, to be, as they are?". Certainly not incessant froggy croaking. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 28, 2019 16:57:12 GMT -5
About a year ago I was pondering this question. The image of a pyramid popped into my mind. The four sides are: 1: thoughts/thinking; 2: emotions/feelings; 3: body-muscle movements; 4: sensations (ATA-T). The only thing that touches all four simultaneously, and stands alone ATST, the capstone, attention and/or awareness (variously, attention on attention, awareness of awareness, etc.).
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2019 20:04:53 GMT -5
Yes, in sitting meditation, sustained, open, alert attention to the contents of mind as they arise can eventually lead to clarity. The trick isn't to refuse or deny or suppress the thoughts -- although, perhaps, for some folks that can lead to some sort of temporary state of "no-thought". But rather, as each thought arises, if one should just allow it to be, without energizing it with interest, it will eventually dissipate, as long as alert - but open and yielding - attention is maintained. If we visualize the mind as the sky, and the thoughts as clouds, our attention can be like the sun, clearing the mist. If we visualize the process of thought as a fire, then attention is the fuel, thoughts and emotions are licks and wisps of red/yellow flame, and our interest in those flames are the drafts of oxygen that bellow the fire. Hey, I didn't invent these metaphors, but, cliches are cliches, for a reason. E' pointed out once that this describes a process of putting attention on attention. But what can happen, if the orientation toward the process of the mind - as well as sensation in the body - is genuinely one of allowance, is that silence and stillness will begin to manifest naturally. The quieter the mind gets, the less intense the attention required to keep from slipping into the stream of one interest leading into another on a continuous train. What can happen from there, is a sort of self-sustaining virtuous circle of awareness opening up into an absence of either subject or object. Silence does have the potential to hold a fascination of it's own, but only if this is attuned. This is an awareness of being aware, free from ephemeral distraction. It is an effortless state to maintain, as no maintenance is necessary, and, here lies the potential for a direct, non-conceptual answer to the question "what is it that would allow the contents of mind, to be, as they are?". Certainly not incessant froggy croaking.  |
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Post by satchitananda on May 28, 2019 20:26:27 GMT -5
The notion that the mind will be controlled through meditation is a fallacy. Trying to control the mind is like trying to control the reflex to sneeze or cough. Good luck. Agreed. It's one of the most common misunderstandings about meditation that you are trying to control the mind which of course you cannot, because by the time you want to control the thought it's too late because the thought must have already arrived for you to get the idea that you want to control it. |
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Post by tzujanli on May 28, 2019 23:20:34 GMT -5
Greetings..
As a fun experience, hopefully, try the following exercise.. first, 'intend' (agree with yourself) that you would like to experience the clarity of a still mind's awareness.. then, take your favorite or most comfortable meditional posture, then.. extend one or both index fingers, as if pointing, but with no direction just be comfortable.. maintain this posture for 30 seconds while breathing normally.. i hope it's an interesting experience..
Be Well..
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Post by satchitananda on May 29, 2019 4:15:08 GMT -5
Greetings.. As a fun experience, hopefully, try the following exercise.. first, 'intend' (agree with yourself) that you would like to experience the clarity of a still mind's awareness.. then, take your favorite or most comfortable meditional posture, then.. extend one or both index fingers, as if pointing, but with no direction just be comfortable.. maintain this posture for 30 seconds while breathing normally.. i hope it's an interesting experience.. Be Well.. Nothing wrong with that Tzu but the non-dual theorist/speculators we'll get their knickers in a twist and tell you that mind is trying to control something. |
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Post by andrew on May 29, 2019 6:27:21 GMT -5
Greetings.. As a fun experience, hopefully, try the following exercise.. first, 'intend' (agree with yourself) that you would like to experience the clarity of a still mind's awareness.. then, take your favorite or most comfortable meditional posture, then.. extend one or both index fingers, as if pointing, but with no direction just be comfortable.. maintain this posture for 30 seconds while breathing normally.. i hope it's an interesting experience.. Be Well.. Nothing wrong with that Tzu but the non-dual theorist/speculators we'll get their knickers in a twist and tell you that mind is trying to control something. Aside from the questionable idea that 'meditation will definitely lead to enlightenment', which I doubt anyone in the western world considers or believes these days, it's hard to see how anyone could have a problem with meditation. Scientific studies have shown that people who regularly practice meditation have unique EEG patterns, lower respiratory rates, stable blood pressure, and better immune responses, can also help those battling anxiety, depression, substance abuse, and addiction. If meditation is 'mind control', then where does mind control begin and end, and is it even a big problem? Working for a paycheck is mind control, exercising, going to a doctors, or buying something, or going to the bank, cooking food, putting on the telly...any consciously considered choice could be said to be 'mind control'. Edit: Ah, if the theorists claim not to believe in the reality/existence of a physiological body but do believe in a mind, then I guess that would lend itself to some odd beliefs about meditation. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 29, 2019 9:21:42 GMT -5
The notion that the mind will be controlled through meditation is a fallacy. Trying to control the mind is like trying to control the reflex to sneeze or cough. Good luck. Agreed. It's one of the most common misunderstandings about meditation that you are trying to control the mind which of course you cannot, because by the time you want to control the thought it's too late because the thought must have already arrived for you to get the idea that you want to control it. You have to find that which supersedes the mind. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 29, 2019 9:29:03 GMT -5
Greetings.. As a fun experience, hopefully, try the following exercise.. first, 'intend' (agree with yourself) that you would like to experience the clarity of a still mind's awareness.. then, take your favorite or most comfortable meditional posture, then.. extend one or both index fingers, as if pointing, but with no direction just be comfortable.. maintain this posture for 30 seconds while breathing normally.. i hope it's an interesting experience.. Be Well.. Yes, the "Capstone". |
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Post by satchitananda on May 29, 2019 13:38:35 GMT -5
Agreed. It's one of the most common misunderstandings about meditation that you are trying to control the mind which of course you cannot, because by the time you want to control the thought it's too late because the thought must have already arrived for you to get the idea that you want to control it. You have to find that which supersedes the mind. Exactly! |
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 6, 2019 7:44:09 GMT -5
Greetings,
In theory, and in practice, usually, the pointing gesture activates the Connective Tissue System (CTS) and stills the mind.. its origins predate human language, to a time when gestures were very important.. the pointing with the index finger was used to get the attention of others, to get them to pay attention and be alert, possibly to indicate danger.. the mind would go still, the senses would be very alert.. in teaching this method of accessing the still mind's awareness the almost immediate success rate is above 90%, it's rare that people don't report a calm alert stillness.. even seasoned and well-regarded teachers of meditation practices are often impressed with the quick and thorough access to stillness.. like anything, with enough practice the stillness begins to happen with just the intention, and the gesture of pointing can be saved for more difficult situations.. when i was introduced to this technique my curiosity sent me on a quest, i googled Connective Tissue System and read the first 200 entries and looked at most of the references cited.. i offer this gift in the same spirit it was offered to me, Love of clarity.. trying to assign purpose or intent to the technique is counter-productive, like a wrench it's just a tool, use it if it works for you, let it go if not..
Be well.. you can do it...
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