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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 14:16:20 GMT -5
Is it the one that's calling silence holy that's doing it then? Who said “to be or not to be: that is the question” — Shakespeare, Hamlet, an actor, the reader of the script, the watcher of the play, someone else, none of the above, all of the above, it depends? "To be or not to be." ~ Not much of a choice is it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 14:17:24 GMT -5
Is it the one that's calling silence holy that's doing it then? Who said “to be or not to be: that is the question” — Shakespeare, Hamlet, an actor, the reader of the script, the watcher of the play, someone else, none of the above, all of the above, it depends? Definitely an English speaking version of Awareness, Self. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 28, 2019 14:25:38 GMT -5
One way to give them the benefit of the doubt is this. If I'm not mistaken, you've pointed out yourself that realizing the existential truth doesn't give you any special, relative knowledge, nor any sort of new power of reasoning or magic. But what does happen is that experience, going forward, is necessarily different that it was before the realization. Now, as far as this particular article goes, this certainly leads me to question the realization status of the writer: .. but I wouldn't want to make a hasty judgement based on such thin evidence.  -- although, you're not the first guy on this forum to express such skepticism about her. I think the bottom-line is that experience, and conditioning, aren't static for anyone, and this is also true for a "realized peep". It's just that these changes happen one way when the illusion is running, and another way afterward. I'd even go out on a limb and say that a genuinely realized peep who'd lived that way for some time, might actually have worthwhile lessons learned from experience to convey to a fresh popped kernel. . Some of us have just forgotten and are recalling with a little difficulty. Cut'em some slack, man.😎 Go to Walmart and tell that to some rando' Joe C.T. ..  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 14:35:21 GMT -5
Just expressing a little self love.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 28, 2019 14:44:05 GMT -5
.. but I wouldn't want to make a hasty judgement based on such thin evidence. -- although, you're not the first guy on this forum to express such skepticism about her. I think the bottom-line is that experience, and conditioning, aren't static for anyone, and this is also true for a "realized peep". It's just that these changes happen one way when the illusion is running, and another way afterward. I'd even go out on a limb and say that a genuinely realized peep who'd lived that way for some time, might actually have worthwhile lessons learned from experience to convey to a fresh popped kernel. Agreed with all this, but I just wouldn't call that some kind of further enlightenment or the real enlightenment or some such. That's a very misleading description, as if self-realization is trivial, and then get ready for the "real work" as you "take that realization" and "embody it." But that's exactly what is suggested in many other places nowadays. It's a kind of egoic way of elongating the spiritual quest to take forever. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 28, 2019 14:44:29 GMT -5
Who said “to be or not to be: that is the question” — Shakespeare, Hamlet, an actor, the reader of the script, the watcher of the play, someone else, none of the above, all of the above, it depends? "To be or not to be." ~ Not much of a choice is it. Them's the breaks... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 14:55:49 GMT -5
.. but I wouldn't want to make a hasty judgement based on such thin evidence. -- although, you're not the first guy on this forum to express such skepticism about her. I think the bottom-line is that experience, and conditioning, aren't static for anyone, and this is also true for a "realized peep". It's just that these changes happen one way when the illusion is running, and another way afterward. I'd even go out on a limb and say that a genuinely realized peep who'd lived that way for some time, might actually have worthwhile lessons learned from experience to convey to a fresh popped kernel. Agreed with all this, but I just wouldn't call that some kind of further enlightenment or the real enlightenment or some such. That's a very misleading description, as if self-realization is trivial, and then get ready for the "real work" as you "take that realization" and "embody it." But that's exactly what is suggested in many other places nowadays. It's a kind of egoic ways of elongating the spiritual quest to take forever. But you would agree that there can be an understanding, albeit conceptual, of the Self/self model followed by a lengthy process of creative endeavors, therapy, self-enquiry before what you say realization happens. This is straight from your book. What you object to is folks calling that initial conceptual understanding, "realization" and then the additional work, integrating the realization into living. Is this at least part of your objection or am I missing the boat? |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 28, 2019 15:05:05 GMT -5
Agreed with all this, but I just wouldn't call that some kind of further enlightenment or the real enlightenment or some such. That's a very misleading description, as if self-realization is trivial, and then get ready for the "real work" as you "take that realization" and "embody it." But that's exactly what is suggested in many other places nowadays. It's a kind of egoic ways of elongating the spiritual quest to take forever. But you would agree that there can be an understanding, albeit conceptual, of the Self/self model followed by a lengthy process of creative endeavors, therapy, self-enquiry before what you say realization happens. This is straight from your book. What you object to is folks calling that initial conceptual understanding, "realization" and then the additional work, integrating the realization into living. Is this at least part of your objection or am I missing the boat? Yes, definitely. Especially since even after "real" realization once could still argue that there continues to be alteration of the mind/body. So it's really getting everything confused to say that awakening is just a trivial beginning. There's also a big problem with the word integration. Integration suggests mixture. It's not about you integrating your realization into your life, as if it's some technique to make life better, as if it's going to make you a better mother or co-worker or baker or boxer or calmer or more relaxed or whatever. It's not some productivity technique that gets integrated into how you deal with your email or your spouse. It's about repeatedly seeing again and again that there is no one's whose life needs to be improved or can be improved. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 16:13:41 GMT -5
Depends on your definition of what S.R. is and what it means. To some it is just the realization that the personhood is an illusion (which isn't how I see it at all) It's so much more than that. To speak about integration, then again it depends on what one has realized. You see for myself I say (as peeps know) that there is only what you are, so whatever is associated to the personhood is what you are also, what you are is also what is beyond the personhood. If you have experienced non functional awareness like I have where there is no thought of oneself (as self) or as anything that can be associated with, then there has to be integration at some point of the 'real world' so to speak from the realization that there can be awareness of I AM that doesn't relate to self and awareness of I AM that can. So there has to be a starting block of what realization you had and then take it from there. There are peeps speaking of there are loads of different realizations and there is talk of there being only one .. I can only go by my own obviously but it doesn't make sense to me for S.R. to only mean this per se, relating to the illusory personhood when I see it as so much more. Right, well, I'm suggesting that a realization which does not eliminate the illusion of doership does not deserve the term 'self-realization.' What more do you see SR as? Exactly. This idea that doership gets seen through in a separate realization from volition which is a separate realization from the seeing through of separation, is just silliness. In complete SR, various erroneous ideas get seen through all at once, all under the same one realization. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 16:15:26 GMT -5
What is the difference between seeing the world as illusion and the psychological defense mechanism called denial? Cool question, actually! I like the connection. Denial is a failure to recognize something true to protect the ego. But that the world is unreal is true. So seeing the world as illusion cannot be denial. By that definition, it is actually the "commonsense view" that is denial.No. But I will continue to speak as if there is one. Excellent answers.
The bolded, wow....so true. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 28, 2019 16:17:31 GMT -5
.. but I wouldn't want to make a hasty judgement based on such thin evidence. -- although, you're not the first guy on this forum to express such skepticism about her. I think the bottom-line is that experience, and conditioning, aren't static for anyone, and this is also true for a "realized peep". It's just that these changes happen one way when the illusion is running, and another way afterward. I'd even go out on a limb and say that a genuinely realized peep who'd lived that way for some time, might actually have worthwhile lessons learned from experience to convey to a fresh popped kernel. Agreed with all this, but I just wouldn't call that some kind of further enlightenment or the real enlightenment or some such. That's a very misleading description, as if self-realization is trivial, and then get ready for the "real work" as you "take that realization" and "embody it." But that's exactly what is suggested in many other places nowadays. It's a kind of egoic way of elongating the spiritual quest to take forever. Yeah, right? There's like, L.E.D.'s, halogen, incandescent .. But to play devils advocate about "further", perhaps some of that talk is to challenge people who might have declared victory too soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 16:26:07 GMT -5
.. but I wouldn't want to make a hasty judgement based on such thin evidence. -- although, you're not the first guy on this forum to express such skepticism about her. I think the bottom-line is that experience, and conditioning, aren't static for anyone, and this is also true for a "realized peep". It's just that these changes happen one way when the illusion is running, and another way afterward. I'd even go out on a limb and say that a genuinely realized peep who'd lived that way for some time, might actually have worthwhile lessons learned from experience to convey to a fresh popped kernel. Agreed with all this, but I just wouldn't call that some kind of further enlightenment or the real enlightenment or some such. That's a very misleading description, as if self-realization is trivial, and then get ready for the "real work" as you "take that realization" and "embody it." But that's exactly what is suggested in many other places nowadays. It's a kind of egoic way of elongating the spiritual quest to take forever.Yes, that, and it an also be a way to claim realization has happened (when it actually hasn't).
SR has happened, but it just hasn't been fully assimilated yet, kind of thing.And you're right, it 'trivializes' SR.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 28, 2019 16:56:02 GMT -5
Agreed with all this, but I just wouldn't call that some kind of further enlightenment or the real enlightenment or some such. That's a very misleading description, as if self-realization is trivial, and then get ready for the "real work" as you "take that realization" and "embody it." But that's exactly what is suggested in many other places nowadays. It's a kind of egoic way of elongating the spiritual quest to take forever. Yeah, right? There's like, L.E.D.'s, halogen, incandescent .. But to play devils advocate about "further", perhaps some of that talk is to challenge people who might have declared victory too soon. Isn’t incandescent, like, banned now? Can never remember  It’s tricky about these early declarations of victory, because of course everyone IS already that which they seek. The idea that they aren’t is the primary target for elimination. So on the face of it any declaration of victory is just the truth and in a way to be encouraged as preferable to seeing realization as some future achievement. Life outs the false realizations soon enough anyhow. But nevertheless, of course, in some sense it does seem to be a problem... and to that I would far rather use the idea of stability than integration. Is one’s realization firm, or does it feel like one goes in and out? When one understands why this is a trick question, that’s victory. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 17:08:50 GMT -5
Yeah, right? There's like, L.E.D.'s, halogen, incandescent .. But to play devils advocate about "further", perhaps some of that talk is to challenge people who might have declared victory too soon. Isn’t incandescent, like, banned now? Can never remember It’s tricky about these early declarations of victory, because of course everyone IS already that which they seek. The idea that they aren’t is the primary target for elimination. So on the face of it any declaration of victory is just the truth and in a way to be encouraged as preferable to seeing realization as some future achievement. Life outs the false realizations soon enough anyhow. But nevertheless, of course, in some sense it does seem to be a problem... and to that I would far rather use the idea of stability than integration. Is one’s realization firm, or does it feel like one goes in and out? When one understands why this is a trick question, that’s victory. There is an inclusivity in your writing, as a contrast, that's refreshing. Thanks. |
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Post by Reefs on Mar 28, 2019 21:43:45 GMT -5
I really like to know who you think is saying this kind of stuff. Your OP smells like burning strawman. Plenty of people. Here’s one random example I just googled. You had to google it?  Don't be shy. I wanna see that plenty of people list. |
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-- although, you're not the first guy on this forum to express such skepticism about her. I think the bottom-line is that experience, and conditioning, aren't static for anyone, and this is also true for a "realized peep". It's just that these changes happen one way when the illusion is running, and another way afterward. I'd even go out on a limb and say that a genuinely realized peep who'd lived that way for some time, might actually have worthwhile lessons learned from experience to convey to a fresh popped kernel. 
