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Post by laughter on Mar 26, 2019 12:41:14 GMT -5
ok then, yeah, no point in wasting any attention on that. No, I don't "act as if" anything, I just ... act. The agency is a conceptual overlay on either the results of the actions or to facilitate an after-the-fact analysis of intent. It's also a useful construct when planning, and necessary when doing the taxes, which never happens at any time other than now. You are being disingenuous, or truthful. Did nonvolition go out the window? No, and, please, it's ok, no worries, and no offense taken here. I can understand how and why you might find what I wrote to be inconsistent with that. The alternative is either to just shut up or to lie to you.
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Post by laughter on Mar 26, 2019 12:44:01 GMT -5
ok then, yeah, no point in wasting any attention on that. No, I don't "act as if" anything, I just ... act. The agency is a conceptual overlay on either the results of the actions or to facilitate an after-the-fact analysis of intent. Yes. There doesn't need to be any self-referential thoughts associated with actions. If they occur, it's just an overlay. Used to sit through old-fashioned overhead slide presentations at work, where you can lay one on top of the other to augment one image with another. Transparencies
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 26, 2019 13:20:36 GMT -5
Yes. There doesn't need to be any self-referential thoughts associated with actions. If they occur, it's just an overlay. Used to sit through old-fashioned overhead slide presentations at work, where you can lay one on top of the other to augment one image with another. Transparencies The Hindu concept of ignorance is that of superimposition of an idea over the bright light...
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Post by laughter on Mar 26, 2019 13:39:39 GMT -5
Used to sit through old-fashioned overhead slide presentations at work, where you can lay one on top of the other to augment one image with another. Transparencies The Hindu concept of ignorance is that of superimposition of an idea over the bright light... Didn't know that, thanks. There's a deep well there for sure. My first introduction to Hindu culture was Carl Sagan. At the time, cosmologists hadn't ruled out the possibility that there was enough mass in the Universe such that it would eventually stop expanding and start collapsing. If I recall correctly, he related that possibility to the (recurring) "Dream of Vishnu".
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 26, 2019 13:46:06 GMT -5
The Hindu concept of ignorance is that of superimposition of an idea over the bright light... Didn't know that, thanks. There's a deep well there for sure. My first introduction to Hindu culture was Carl Sagan. At the time, cosmologists hadn't ruled out the possibility that there was enough mass in the Universe such that it would eventually stop expanding and start collapsing. If I recall correctly, he related that possibility to the (recurring) "Dream of Vishnu". Interesting. Well it certainly does fall in with traditional Hindu notions of the periodic creation and destruction of the universe. A period of expansion-differentiation and a period of contraction-homogenization back into the source, and then we begin again... And of course really there's no single "dream of Vishnu." There are so many scriptures saying so many things...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 26, 2019 14:11:09 GMT -5
ok then, yeah, no point in wasting any attention on that. No, I don't "act as if" anything, I just ... act. The agency is a conceptual overlay on either the results of the actions or to facilitate an after-the-fact analysis of intent. Yes. There doesn't need to be any self-referential thoughts associated with actions. If they occur, it's just an overlay. A major point of disagreement here. (Also to L, E, figgles and anyone else here). The central aspect of the self is not self-referential thinking, it's doing, we are what we do. (So self is still hiding in plain sight). You've just agreed there is doing, in some sense, going on. self exists in the neural connections. "Garbage in, garbage out".
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Post by laughter on Mar 26, 2019 16:42:06 GMT -5
Yes. There doesn't need to be any self-referential thoughts associated with actions. If they occur, it's just an overlay. A major point of disagreement here. (Also to L, E, figgles and anyone else here). The central aspect of the self is not self-referential thinking, it's doing, we are what we do. (So self is still hiding in plain sight). You've just agreed there is doing, in some sense, going on. self exists in the neural connections. "Garbage in, garbage out". Human physiology is as intricate as it is fascinating. But a scholar can accept the premises of nonduality and it's pointers, and understand, in exquisite detail, how the false sense of mistaken personal identity manifests, and why, and yet still harbor it subconsciously, whether they realize that, or not.
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 26, 2019 18:08:21 GMT -5
I didn't fully perceive my play in the irony until later.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 21:05:46 GMT -5
Yes. There doesn't need to be any self-referential thoughts associated with actions. If they occur, it's just an overlay. A major point of disagreement here. (Also to L, E, figgles and anyone else here). The central aspect of the self is not self-referential thinking, it's doing, we are what we do. (So self is still hiding in plain sight). You've just agreed there is doing, in some sense, going on. self exists in the neural connections. "Garbage in, garbage out". I think it's the 'self referential thoughts' that are important to see here. That's what creates the imaginary overlay of an intermediary and for those who imagine themselves to be an 'entity,' self referential thoughts are what feed that.
Doings still get done, they just flow much betterer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 4:04:22 GMT -5
A major point of disagreement here. (Also to L, E, figgles and anyone else here). The central aspect of the self is not self-referential thinking, it's doing, we are what we do. (So self is still hiding in plain sight). You've just agreed there is doing, in some sense, going on. self exists in the neural connections. "Garbage in, garbage out". I think it's the 'self referential thoughts' that are important to see here. That's what creates the imaginary overlay of an intermediary and for those who imagine themselves to be an 'entity,' self referential thoughts are what feed that.
Doings still get done, they just flow much betterer.
How are you imagining that this is also not so for all the appearances in this forum?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 27, 2019 4:15:40 GMT -5
A major point of disagreement here. (Also to L, E, figgles and anyone else here). The central aspect of the self is not self-referential thinking, it's doing, we are what we do. (So self is still hiding in plain sight). You've just agreed there is doing, in some sense, going on. self exists in the neural connections. "Garbage in, garbage out". Human physiology is as intricate as it is fascinating. But a scholar can accept the premises of nonduality and it's pointers, and understand, in exquisite detail, how the false sense of mistaken personal identity manifests, and why, and yet still harbor it subconsciously, whether they realize that, or not. Definitely. And all those who have seen through the illusion of selfhood assert that doing continues even though the imaginary volitional person has been seen through and is no longer a factor.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 27, 2019 9:50:14 GMT -5
A major point of disagreement here. (Also to L, E, figgles and anyone else here). The central aspect of the self is not self-referential thinking, it's doing, we are what we do. (So self is still hiding in plain sight). You've just agreed there is doing, in some sense, going on. self exists in the neural connections. "Garbage in, garbage out". Human physiology is as intricate as it is fascinating. But a scholar can accept the premises of nonduality and it's pointers, and understand, in exquisite detail, how the false sense of mistaken personal identity manifests, and why, and yet still harbor it subconsciously, whether they realize that, or not. I agree with this.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 27, 2019 10:09:32 GMT -5
Human physiology is as intricate as it is fascinating. But a scholar can accept the premises of nonduality and it's pointers, and understand, in exquisite detail, how the false sense of mistaken personal identity manifests, and why, and yet still harbor it subconsciously, whether they realize that, or not. Definitely. And all those who have seen through the illusion of selfhood assert that doing continues even though the imaginary volitional person has been seen through and is no longer a factor. The imaginary volitional person is just a series of associative thoughts, in the neural structure (which operates mostly unconsciously). But we also have associative feelings (which many here agree are linked to thoughts), and more importantly, associative bodily movements (you don't have to learn to ride a bicycle again every time you want to ride a bicycle, or pour concrete). These can constitute self as much as automatic-associative-thinking. Ceasing self-referential thinking, in and of itself, nor even seeing through the illusion of the self, breaks one free of this associative network. That's why some "sages" (Andrew Cohen, the Mooji allegations, some of the in recent years Zen masters [see link below] , etc.) can still do stupid stuff. The automaticity (of the emotional and bodily-moving center) can still react to people and situations and cause doing-stupid-stuff.. tricycle.org/magazine/beyond-betrayal/
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Post by laughter on Mar 27, 2019 14:33:11 GMT -5
Human physiology is as intricate as it is fascinating. But a scholar can accept the premises of nonduality and it's pointers, and understand, in exquisite detail, how the false sense of mistaken personal identity manifests, and why, and yet still harbor it subconsciously, whether they realize that, or not. Definitely. And all those who have seen through the illusion of selfhood assert that doing continues even though the imaginary volitional person has been seen through and is no longer a factor. heh heh .. figuring out that these shoes fit involved this mind working through some stunned disbelief and confusion.
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Post by laughter on Mar 27, 2019 14:47:19 GMT -5
Definitely. And all those who have seen through the illusion of selfhood assert that doing continues even though the imaginary volitional person has been seen through and is no longer a factor. The imaginary volitional person is just a series of associative thoughts, in the neural structure (which operates mostly unconsciously). But we also have associative feelings (which many here agree are linked to thoughts), and more importantly, associative bodily movements (you don't have to learn to ride a bicycle again every time you want to ride a bicycle, or pour concrete). These can constitute self as much as automatic-associative-thinking. Ceasing self-referential thinking, in and of itself, nor even seeing through the illusion of the self, breaks one free of this associative network. That's why some "sages" (Andrew Cohen, the Mooji allegations, some of the in recent years Zen masters [see link below] , etc.) can still do stupid stuff. The automaticity (of the emotional and bodily-moving center) can still react to people and situations and cause doing-stupid-stuff.. tricycle.org/magazine/beyond-betrayal/To some degree I agree with this, but from the outside looking in, when the behavior is extreme enough, another explanation that fits the story is that there's a potential for realization that hasn't been fulfilled. For example, many, if not most of Rick Archer's interviewee's strike me as unqualified to lead or .. "teach", if you will (at least, the few dozen I've sampled), but then again, my standards are kinda' high. The capability to lead others on the existential path strikes me as dependent on all sorts of various relative factors, most notably, personality traits and state of (overall) health. While I haven't gone out and met people who claim the ability to lead like this, I can definitely imagine meeting folks who are no-doubt realized, and genuinely done with seeking, but with no talent for the job, or, even, really wrong for it. Bottom-line is that realization won't instantaneously perfect your character, but if you're not self-aware and self-honest enough to admit to whether you'd be confusing people or potentially leading them to clarity, you're not a "sage".
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