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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 24, 2019 9:21:55 GMT -5
The end of the Hindu scripture the Yoga Vasistha has some of the truest and most courageously direct passages on absolute surrender. Give up all decision-making and be asleep to the world! Few other scriptures are so direct.
And on and on it goes...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 11:28:32 GMT -5
The end of the Hindu scripture the Yoga Vasistha has some of the truest and most courageously direct passages on absolute surrender. Give up all decision-making and be asleep to the world! Few other scriptures are so direct. And on and on it goes... That seems to me to be drawing an unessarily 'hard line,' and it seems to read as 'this is what one 'should' do/not do' as though there is some choice in the matter of how life is regarded.
If the admonishment-like tone could be removed and the line reeled in, I'd be on board with some of that.
"The wise man who knows the soul is as quiet as a baby sleeping in a swinging cradle, moved without moving itself.
Get rid of your bodily exertions and lull your mind to sleep. Do all your duties like a tortoise with its contracted limbs. Manage your affairs with a half-sleeping and half-awakened mind. Do your outward functions without the effort of your mental faculties."
I like those quotes...but the "Get Rid of" bit in the bolded needs to be gotten rid of imo.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 24, 2019 12:55:18 GMT -5
That seems to me to be drawing an unessarily 'hard line,' and it seems to read as 'this is what one 'should' do/not do' as though there is some choice in the matter of how life is regarded. If the admonishment-like tone could be removed and the line reeled in, I'd be on board with some of that. "The wise man who knows the soul is as quiet as a baby sleeping in a swinging cradle, moved without moving itself. Get rid of your bodily exertions and lull your mind to sleep. Do all your duties like a tortoise with its contracted limbs. Manage your affairs with a half-sleeping and half-awakened mind. Do your outward functions without the effort of your mental faculties." I like those quotes...but the "Get Rid of" bit in the bolded needs to be gotten rid of imo. Well, it’s addressed to the seeker, to that which still considers itself a doer. To whatever that is, such admonishment does make sense. And it addresses the question many seekers have: namely, how to reconcile the world with the seeking. And the answer is: don’t bother. Drop all mental effort.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 13:16:58 GMT -5
That seems to me to be drawing an unessarily 'hard line,' and it seems to read as 'this is what one 'should' do/not do' as though there is some choice in the matter of how life is regarded. If the admonishment-like tone could be removed and the line reeled in, I'd be on board with some of that. "The wise man who knows the soul is as quiet as a baby sleeping in a swinging cradle, moved without moving itself. Get rid of your bodily exertions and lull your mind to sleep. Do all your duties like a tortoise with its contracted limbs. Manage your affairs with a half-sleeping and half-awakened mind. Do your outward functions without the effort of your mental faculties." I like those quotes...but the "Get Rid of" bit in the bolded needs to be gotten rid of imo. Well, it’s addressed to the seeker, to that which still considers itself a doer. To whatever that is, such admonishment does make sense. And it addresses the question many seekers have: namely, how to reconcile the world with the seeking. And the answer is: don’t bother. Drop all mental effort.
Yes, parts are, but there are also parts that seem to be saying "this is what the wise and Saintly do/live like."
And the words to 'drop all mental effort' is perfect on one hand, but you and I both know that at times even that gets taken as something that can be efforted into place. (which of course can't be helped). Something kind of both funny, and not, about someone trying valiantly, efforting, to cease trying. But yeah, it is what it is.
When it talks about 'how saints and wise men manage' themselves and their lives, you don't see some overstatement of things? This reads to me a bit "brown-bearish: (a bit as though there's a tingle of 'denial' of the phenomenal world, feelings and such there)....but perhaps there's something I'm missing or am reading in something not there.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 24, 2019 13:45:37 GMT -5
Yes, parts are, but there are also parts that seem to be saying "this is what the wise and Saintly do/live like."
And the words to 'drop all mental effort' is perfect on one hand, but you and I both know that at times even that gets taken as something that can be efforted into place. (which of course can't be helped). Something kind of both funny, and not, about someone trying valiantly, efforting, to cease trying. But yeah, it is what it is. When it talks about 'how saints and wise men manage' themselves and their lives, you don't see some overstatement of things? This reads to me a bit "brown-bearish: (a bit as though there's a tingle of 'denial' of the phenomenal world, feelings and such there)....but perhaps there's something I'm missing or am reading in something not there. Well, its model of what the wise do is meant to be a kind of model for seekers — indeed it is literally in the context of a sage teaching a seeker. And it is indeed ironic to put in effort to stop trying, but then again what else to do? I am in the camp that believe that that sort of effort does bear fruit. It brings down grace. As far as denial, certainly it denies the phenomenal world, but for the seeker I believe that is just the right approach. That “third mountain” non-denial will happen all by itself, but the beauty of transcendence for the seeker cannot I think be too stressed. First the seeker needs freedom and truth, and that comes from resolutely turning the mind inward. That’s the hard part. And all the talk about integration nowadays I think misleads seekers into thinking they can have their cake and eat it too. No, first die to the world. Leap into the fire of self-knowledge. And then rebirth will happen all of its own. Of course all this supposes a relatively mature seeker.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 14:16:03 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 14:20:39 GMT -5
Cool advice
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 18:46:27 GMT -5
Well, its model of what the wise do is meant to be a kind of model for seekers — indeed it is literally in the context of a sage teaching a seeker. Yeah, ok. Agreed. Sages after all, don't require a discourse on how it is to be a sage. I'm more aligned with the thread you posted about how plans don't actually 'lead to actions.' To take that seeing farther, I'm of the camp that says effort/actions don't actually lead to realization. I see it more that the sincerity and interest that lies behind the willingness to make the effort to practice, to follow the kind of advice outlined in your opening post, is positively 'correlated' with SR. In actuality, there is no doing that can cause SR. It's all one movement though, so the interest, the sincerity, the willingness are all part and parcel of the seeing through/realization. Seeing that though, does not mean that I'd advise anyone who is interested in efforting/trying/practicing, to not do so. If the interest is there, there's nothing to do but go with it. Same with someone who advises practice of any sort....you could say the impetus/interest to advise, is part and parcel of the general movement of coming to realization. Perhaps. ....guess that might be what's behind folks who are still seeking, accusing those who present as SR as 'fakes' for not totally denying the phenomenal world. I suppose another thing that can be helped. Just a very different vantage point of seeing. yeah agreed. The non-denial just happens. And no doubt, things look dramatically different from 1st mountain, even 2nd, than at 3rd. Yes...that's important for sure... but, all bets are off on that one.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 24, 2019 19:14:00 GMT -5
I'm more aligned with the thread you posted about how plans don't actually 'lead to actions.' To take that seeing farther, I'm of the camp that says effort/actions don't actually lead to realization. I see it more that the sincerity and interest that lies behind the willingness to make the effort to practice, to follow the kind of advice outlined in your opening post, is positively 'correlated' with SR. In actuality, there is no doing that can cause SR. It's all one movement though, so the interest, the sincerity, the willingness are all part and parcel of the seeing through/realization. Seeing that though, does not mean that I'd advise anyone who is interested in efforting/trying/practicing, to not do so. If the interest is there, there's nothing to do but go with it. Same with someone who advises practice of any sort....you could say the impetus/interest to advise, is part and parcel of the general movement of coming to realization. Well, it's interesting. Certainly plans don't lead to actions in the big picture. That very idea is, of course, however, a pointer. The very act of trying to grasp that idea can lead to a glimpse of the truth. In the big picture, it's also true that actions do not cause SR, but that is also because in the big picture there can be no such thing as SR. Self-realization, after all, depends on the existence of ignorance, and there is no such thing as ignorance. So SR, as you know, then, becomes a paradoxical realization -- a realization that it itself does not and cannot exist. If we pretend that ignorance and the freedom from ignorance exist, then there is action that leads to the dissipation of ignorance (with the assistance of grace). But that dissipation of ignorance leads to realizing the whole process has actually been a misconception; there has been no such process. But insofar as we pretend that SR does exist, though, then actions do lead to it... or at least near it, and then grace happens. Yeah, sadly I think there's no helping that. They can't understand without realization.
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Post by krsnaraja on Mar 24, 2019 20:17:36 GMT -5
I'm more aligned with the thread you posted about how plans don't actually 'lead to actions.' To take that seeing farther, I'm of the camp that says effort/actions don't actually lead to realization. I see it more that the sincerity and interest that lies behind the willingness to make the effort to practice, to follow the kind of advice outlined in your opening post, is positively 'correlated' with SR. In actuality, there is no doing that can cause SR. It's all one movement though, so the interest, the sincerity, the willingness are all part and parcel of the seeing through/realization. Seeing that though, does not mean that I'd advise anyone who is interested in efforting/trying/practicing, to not do so. If the interest is there, there's nothing to do but go with it. Same with someone who advises practice of any sort....you could say the impetus/interest to advise, is part and parcel of the general movement of coming to realization. Well, it's interesting. Certainly plans don't lead to actions in the big picture. That very idea is, of course, however, a pointer. The very act of trying to grasp that idea can lead to a glimpse of the truth. In the big picture, it's also true that actions do not cause SR, but that is also because in the big picture there can be no such thing as SR. Self-realization, after all, depends on the existence of ignorance, and there is no such thing as ignorance. So SR, as you know, then, becomes a paradoxical realization -- a realization that it itself does not and cannot exist. If we pretend that ignorance and the freedom from ignorance exist, then there is action that leads to the dissipation of ignorance (with the assistance of grace). But that dissipation of ignorance leads to realizing the whole process has actually been a misconception; there has been no such process. But insofar as we pretend that SR does exist, though, then actions do lead to it... or at least near it, and then grace happens. Yeah, sadly I think there's no helping that. They can't understand without realization. It's only by the Grace of God one finds discernment to know the truth.
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Post by laughter on Mar 25, 2019 6:07:53 GMT -5
Yes, parts are, but there are also parts that seem to be saying "this is what the wise and Saintly do/live like."
And the words to 'drop all mental effort' is perfect on one hand, but you and I both know that at times even that gets taken as something that can be efforted into place. (which of course can't be helped). Something kind of both funny, and not, about someone trying valiantly, efforting, to cease trying. But yeah, it is what it is. When it talks about 'how saints and wise men manage' themselves and their lives, you don't see some overstatement of things? This reads to me a bit "brown-bearish: (a bit as though there's a tingle of 'denial' of the phenomenal world, feelings and such there)....but perhaps there's something I'm missing or am reading in something not there. Well, its model of what the wise do is meant to be a kind of model for seekers — indeed it is literally in the context of a sage teaching a seeker. And it is indeed ironic to put in effort to stop trying, but then again what else to do? I am in the camp that believe that that sort of effort does bear fruit. It brings down grace. As far as denial, certainly it denies the phenomenal world, but for the seeker I believe that is just the right approach. That “third mountain” non-denial will happen all by itself, but the beauty of transcendence for the seeker cannot I think be too stressed. First the seeker needs freedom and truth, and that comes from resolutely turning the mind inward. That’s the hard part. And all the talk about integration nowadays I think misleads seekers into thinking they can have their cake and eat it too. No, first die to the world. Leap into the fire of self-knowledge. And then rebirth will happen all of its own. Of course all this supposes a relatively mature seeker. Yes, I can relate to that, for sure .. but then again, tell that to my wife!
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 25, 2019 7:07:52 GMT -5
Yes, I can relate to that, for sure .. but then again, tell that to my wife! What, you haven't even enlightened her yet?? Charity starts at home!
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Post by laughter on Mar 25, 2019 7:09:46 GMT -5
Yes, I can relate to that, for sure .. but then again, tell that to my wife! What, you haven't even enlightened her yet?? Charity starts at home! "my teaching" sucks!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 25, 2019 10:13:15 GMT -5
Well, it’s addressed to the seeker, to that which still considers itself a doer. To whatever that is, such admonishment does make sense. And it addresses the question many seekers have: namely, how to reconcile the world with the seeking. And the answer is: don’t bother. Drop all mental effort. Yes, parts are, but there are also parts that seem to be saying "this is what the wise and Saintly do/live like."
And the words to 'drop all mental effort' is perfect on one hand, but you and I both know that at times even that gets taken as something that can be efforted into place. (which of course can't be helped). Something kind of both funny, and not, about someone trying valiantly, efforting, to cease trying. But yeah, it is what it is. When it talks about 'how saints and wise men manage' themselves and their lives, you don't see some overstatement of things? This reads to me a bit "brown-bearish: (a bit as though there's a tingle of 'denial' of the phenomenal world, feelings and such there)....but perhaps there's something I'm missing or am reading in something not there.
Bingo. (See the thread Groundhog Day).
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